Are The 3 Degrees Only For The Next Life?

[JLHPROF]

My first speculative thread:

Interesting discussion I had today.  We were discussing the 3 degrees (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial) and my friend pointed out that the three part division of God's children has scriptural precedent as existing in pre-mortality and this life as well as in the life to come.  It is a little bit of a stretch but it makes sense to me.   Are three levels of mankind limited to the 3rd estate, or were we in three degrees in our first and second as well?  What does the board think?

 

The idea came from:

 

Pre-Earth

God starts by describing 3 levels of stars:

Abraham 3:16 If ^atwo things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore ^bKolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

Then compares this to the pre-mortal spirits/intelligences:

Abraham 3:19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am ^amore intelligent than they all.

And we know that one "third part" of the hosts of heaven fell (D&C 29).  Notice it says one third part, not one third.  This implies three divisions as well.

 

This Life

God describes three kinds of flesh:

I Cor 15:39-40

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 ^aThere are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the ^bcelestial is one, and the glory of the ^cterrestrial is another.

and then says in verse 42:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in ^acorruption; it is raised in incorruption.

This implies that the resurrection and this life are the same.  3 Degrees in the flesh, so also in the resurrection.

[Calm]

And so how would you describe the divisions if they are there?

[JLHPROF]

And so how would you describe the divisions if they are there?

Don't know - hadn't got that far.  Too busy thinking about the idea that spiritual groupings of 3 might be an eternal principle.  Real life application might come later.

[Rob Osborn]

My speculative answer-

I am not sure on exactly how the three degrees works but it is my understanding that God's kingdom is a system of line upon line, precept upon precept of improvement. Rather than see people funneling into a one of three system I view it as Where God is there are basically three steps to the process where we can progress from one to the next until we come into the set of laws that God lives by. This we are taught in the temple progressing from one kingdom to the next learning and living law precept upon precept, line upon line. We are basically on the lowest rung of the three tiered ladder right now being in the telestial kingdom right now. We go from here to the next rung of the ladder- the terrestrial kingdom when the millennium comes. Then comes the celestial- the top rung where God himself is.

[thatjimguy]

I've thought about the three kingdoms being here myself. Kind of like a similitude of heaven on earth.

 

Telestial kingdom - Pretty much the ghettos.

Terestial Kingdom - Average 

Celestial Kingdom - Middle - Upper class

 

I thought about these because people will not want to stay around people in the other kingdoms.Just like I've heard it said somewhere (and please tell me if this is folklore or not) that those from other kingdoms will not be happy in the other kingdoms because of the rules they have to / want to follow.

 

This is just an idea of what I think in general about the idea. Of course, I know that a person could have a celestial heart and live in the worst areas of the world. But I also know that much about religion is about teaching kids to grow up well. So the idea that those who follow will be wealthy and protected and those who do not are where they are.

 

The only problem is this does zilch to promote the idea of righteousness and humility. It would only help serve the idea that being rich means you are righteous by default.

 

Anyway, it's just a theory I had thought of in my mind when I was investigating.

[janderich]

This Life

God describes three kinds of flesh:

I Cor 15:39-40

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 ^aThere are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the ^bcelestial is one, and the glory of the ^cterrestrial is another.

and then says in verse 42:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in ^acorruption; it is raised in incorruption.

This implies that the resurrection and this life are the same.  3 Degrees in the flesh, so also in the resurrection.

Here are some more thoughts I've had along the above lines. First, Paul says there are three kinds of flesh or bodies. Sometimes I think we limit this to the life after this one but I think there is a least fair reason to suppose he is also talking bout this life. We can receive a portion of the celestial in this life. It will not be noticed externally but we will notice it in ourselves. Note these interesting words in the D&C: "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness" (D&C 88:28). I find this very interesting, we will receive a fullness of the glory by which our bodies are currently quickened.  In other words we have not received the glory yet but our bodies are quickened here and now by the spirit we have received.

[CV75]

My first speculative thread:

There was a family life class during the Sunday School hour some 20 years ago where the idea was presented from the manual that we can choose to be T, T or c type people adn live T, T or C types of lives.

I think the use of these terms can be applied to just about anything that makes sense.

As far as using them for our behavior and righteousness in the pre-existence, we are told there were only two sides ("kingdoms"). The innumerable gradients of intelligence among the children of God (Abraham 3:18-19) apparently were still divided into only two types--the obedient who would receive bodies and the rebellious who would not (Abraham 3:26; Jude 1:6). Alma 13:5 also seems to allude to this.

[thesometimesaint]

In my fathers house there are MANY mansions.

[daz2]

Using a similar parsing of scripture, Alvin R. Dyer's theory was that there were three degrees in the pre-existence that translated into racial divisions in mortality. http://probationarystate.blogspot.com/2010/09/alvin-r-dyer-for-what-purpose.html   That theory was never adopted by any other general authority I know of, and the church's statement on race and priesthood makes clear that teaching or anything like it is false.

[Rob Osborn]

^{Telestial law is the law of the commandments and sacrifice, Aaronic priesthood and prparatory gospel.}

^{Terrestrial law is the law of blessing others, Melchizedek priesthood and laws leading to perfection once on the path}

^{Celestial law is the patriarchal order, law of consecration and a fulness of all thingslaws telestial and terrestrial}

[Tsuzuki]

And so how would you describe the divisions if they are there?

The Three Degrees of Glory map pretty well onto Aleister Crowley's A∴A∴ system of magick.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%E2%88%B4A%E2%88%B4

 

The Order of the G∴D∴ (Golden Dawn) = Telestial

The Order of the R∴C∴ (Rose-Cross) = Terrestrial

The Order of the S∴S∴ (Silver Star) = Celestial

 

An Ipsissimus would be someone who's attained the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

 

This would also make perfect sense if Joseph Smith was studying the Kabbalah while formulating the Degrees of Glory model, since that's what the A∴A∴ system is also based on.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Tsuzuki

[DarkScythe]

how interesting, Tsuzuki

[theplains]

And we know that one "third part" of the hosts of heaven fell (D&C 29).  Notice it says one third part, not one third.  This implies three divisions as well.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 29:36-37 says, "And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the

devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine

honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me

because of their agency; And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels".

 

Which of the three divisions does this 'third part' go to?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Ahab]

Here are some more thoughts I've had along the above lines. First, Paul says there are three kinds of flesh or bodies. Sometimes I think we limit this to the life after this one but I think there is a least fair reason to suppose he is also talking bout this life. We can receive a portion of the celestial in this life. It will not be noticed externally but we will notice it in ourselves. Note these interesting words in the D&C: "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness" (D&C 88:28). I find this very interesting, we will receive a fullness of the glory by which our bodies are currently quickened.  In other words we have not received the glory yet but our bodies are quickened here and now by the spirit we have received.

This coupled with the fact that glory = intelligence (the glory of God is intelligence) tells us that the degree of intelligence (glory) we attain in this life will be with us when we are resurrected and we'll have that much of an advantage over those who didn't receive that much intelligence in this life. 

 

We can speculate that they may attain more intelligence (glory) later, but the spirit they have here will still be the spirit they have there unless or until they let go of false ideas and accept the intelligence when offered.  Otherwise what good does it do to give someone a gift if they will simply reject it.