Satan's Role In The Great Fall

[Jazzdreamer]

Alright, I'm feeling slightly lost or confused at the moment...

we say satan is bad. We know he tempted eve to partake of the fruit who prompted Adam to do so as well.

Satan can't be all that awful if he helped in this. Right? Without him, who knows if eve would have ate the fruit...? He can't be entirely bad, Heavenly Father used him. Which is concerning, why would he want to help Heavenly Father with this great big plan since it goes against his idea?

I'm not necessarily saying satan is good but clearly he was part of heavenly fathers plan...so why would he help with that plan...if it completely went against his own ideas?

[CV75]

Alright, I'm feeling slightly lost or confused at the moment...

we say satan is bad. We know he tempted eve to partake of the fruit who prompted Adam to do so as well.

Satan can't be all that awful if he helped in this. Right? Without him, who knows if eve would have ate the fruit...? He can't be entirely bad, Heavenly Father used him. Which is concerning, why would he want to help Heavenly Father with this great big plan since it goes against his idea?

I'm not necessarily saying satan is good but clearly he was part of heavenly fathers plan...so why would he help with that plan...if it completely went against his own ideas?

He is bad. He did what he did because he didn’t know the mind of God: “And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.” (Moses 4:6).

 

Satan was thwarted by God’s having a Savior prepared (Abraham 3:27). But God was not thwarted by Satan’s interference since a temporary mortality was considered in His plan all along (“And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” – Abraham 3:25).

 

Satan thought he was destroying God's plan. But God's plan could not be destroyed because of the Savior. Because of this, we are the ones who have the power to choose our destruction or our salvation, not Satan or God. God invites us to choose Him and has given us everything we need in the Savior to accomplish this.

[changed]

You mean, why would Satan proceed if he knew he couldn't win?

This might sound strange, but I have known a couple of people who seem to seek out pain and suffering, they purposely do things they know they will fail at just to make a point  - the "see, I told you I couldn't do it" crowd.  They seek to be miserable, and are constantly finding new ways to hurt themselves and to hurt others.  Anyways, perhaps Satan is one of these people - sure he knows he'll fail and he's being used, but he seems to be one of those people who will do something even if they know they will fail, they enjoy being the underdog, they enjoy being the loser, they seek misery.... it's hard to understand why someone would be like that - they say in any game, there is a point where the loser stops trying to win, and instead works towards building an excuse for their performance (sprain their leg, claim the playing field is faulty, the umpire is unfair, etc. etc.) they are not in it to win, they are in it to lose, and want people to feel sorry for them, or to be angry with them.... misery loves company.

I'm not sure how the fruit was administered in other worlds, I pretty sure our world is the only one who would kill Jesus though, so there must be another way to do things. 

Edited November 2, 2013 by changed

[Jazzdreamer]

You mean, why would Satan proceed if he knew he couldn't win?

This might sound strange, but I have known a couple of people who seem to seek out pain and suffering, they purposely do things they know they will fail at just to make a point - the "see, I told you I couldn't do it" crowd. They seek to be miserable, and are constantly finding new ways to hurt themselves and to hurt others. Anyways, perhaps Satan is one of these people - sure he knows he'll fail and he's being used, but he seems to be one of those people who will do something even if they know they will fail, they enjoy being the underdog, they enjoy being the loser, they seek misery.... it's hard to understand why someone would be like that - they say in any game, there is a point where the loser stops trying to win, and instead works towards building an excuse for their performance (sprain their leg, claim the playing field is faulty, the umpire is unfair, etc. etc.) they are not in it to win, they are in it to lose, and want people to feel sorry for them, or to be angry with them.... misery loves company.

I'm not sure how the fruit was administered in other worlds, I pretty sure our world is the only one who would kill Jesus though, so there must be another way to do things.

I'm just confused how doctrine points to it, we discuss everyone was in the prelife...and satan laid out his plan and Jesus laid out his...so they both knew the other plan, why would satan help the plan of Jesus that he hated so much...like if I were satan, I would not have helped with the plan...

[CV75]

I'm just confused how doctrine points to it, we discuss everyone was in the prelife...and satan laid out his plan and Jesus laid out his...so they both knew the other plan, why would satan help the plan of Jesus that he hated so much...like if I were satan, I would not have helped with the plan...

He didn't think he was helping.

 

And at this point, he really, really, really thinks his purposes are more important than the Father’s plan. If Jesus can say, “And if it so be that you should labor all your days …and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!” (D&C 18:15), then it shows that the devil can derive great satisfaction by bringing one soul into perdition (“…for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.”—2 Nephi 2 27).

 

The devil will falsely claim victory for anyone that does not return to the highest degree of glory, even though it is by their own choice and the Lord's merciful judgement that they end up in a lesser kingdom.

Edited November 2, 2013 by CV75

[Jazzdreamer]

He didn't think he was helping.

And at this point, he really, really, really thinks his purposes are more important than the Father’s plan. If Jesus can say, “And if it so be that you should labor all your days …and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!” (D&C 18:15), then it shows that the devil can derive great satisfaction by bringing one soul into perdition (“…for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.”—2 Nephi 2 27).

The devil will falsely claim victory for anyone that does not return to the highest degree of glory, even though it is by their own choice and the Lord's merciful judgement that they end up in a lesser kingdom.

So is it possible the plan changed then...?

Satan must've had enough knowledge of the plan to know what was going to happen if they partook of the fruit and thus ended their innocence.

[ERMD]

His sins were and are pride and rebellion.  There was one Plan, that of Elohim.  A Savior was needed.  The details were in who would take on that role.  Lucifer proposed that he would, and in the process take away man's agency.  He would also gain the "glory", rather than Elohim.  He wanted to place himself above God.  When this was rejected, rather than conforming his will to God's, he continued in his rebellion and was cast out.  Since he seeks that all be miserable like unto himself (he has no chance of redemption, IMHO), he continues rebelling by trying to lead as many as he can away from The Father.  I think his desire is twofold--do all the harm he can to other children of God, so they can share in his misery, and to hurt God Himself, by preventing many of his children from returning to him.  In both of these efforts, he is successful to one degree or another.  Think of Enoch vision of God weeping over the wickedness of his creations.

[Calm]

Satan can't be all that awful if he helped in this. 

I think we need to understand if he intentionally helped or helped in spite of himself.  If he really wanted to screw things up, even though they turned out "good" doesn't mean that his own actions were "good" as well.

 

An example where good is the result of a evil man's action one just has to look at Elizabeth Smart and see how she has been able to help others by using her own horrible experience with evil in a positive way.  I am not saying that she wouldn't have turned out as magnificent as she is now, but she wouldn't have been able to help a segement of the population who may be suffering immensely in the way she can now or help prevent such suffering through her voice for education and prevention.

[Calm]

I'm just confused how doctrine points to it, we discuss everyone was in the prelife...and satan laid out his plan and Jesus laid out his...so they both knew the other plan, why would satan help the plan of Jesus that he hated so much...like if I were satan, I would not have helped with the plan...

Perhaps specific details weren't given, perhaps someone else was supposed to offer the fruit and by stepping in he thought he would sidetrack the plan or slow it down or something.  Perhaps by rebelling his knowledge of the pre-existence was veiled to a certain extent much like our own has been.  We just don't know and if we try to fill in the gaps, we run the risk of misinterpreting what we do know.

 

The temple drama either at the temple or as portrayed in the scriptures doesn't need to be a word for word account of what really happened, I don't think we can say for sure what happened either in the Preexistence or in the Garden, only what is happening to us and what has been promised us as well as Satan according to how much we are willing to accept or reject the Atonement.

 

Just one more aspect we have chosen to live by faith, imo.

[Jazzdreamer]

Perhaps specific details weren't given, perhaps someone else was supposed to offer the fruit and by stepping in he thought he would sidetrack the plan or slow it down or something. Perhaps by rebelling his knowledge of the pre-existence was veiled to a certain extent much like our own has been. We just don't know and if we try to fill in the gaps, we run the risk of misinterpreting what we do know.

The temple drama either at the temple or as portrayed in the scriptures doesn't need to be a word for word account of what really happened, I don't think we can say for sure what happened either in the Preexistence or in the Garden, only what is happening to us and what has been promised us as well as Satan according to how much we are willing to accept or reject the Atonement.

Just one more aspect we have chosen to live by faith, imo.

So basically it's just something we aren't 100% sure of.

And that was my next question-did he maybe not know as much as I am assuming?

[CV75]

So is it possible the plan changed then...?

Satan must've had enough knowledge of the plan to know what was going to happen if they partook of the fruit and thus ended their innocence.

Yes, he had some knowledge about the children of God being tested but he did not know the mind of God. He cannot comprehend the light (D&C 88:49). I believe there are many things he did not understand or acknowledge about the plan. All he had on his agenda was to destroy and couldn't see further than that. He wanted Adam and Eve to obey him and not God--as far as he was concerend, that was the victory. He may see a bit further now, or have a bigger picture, but he still takes credit when the children of God choose him over God, no matter the degree (Moses 7:26-3). His pride drives him to see others' failures in terms of being "all about him," so he persists. When they fail, he concludes that he is better than God.

 

What is the plan you suggested might have changed, and how do you think it changed?

[VideoGameJunkie]

God is smarter than Satan.

[Maidservant]

If you read the Genesis accounts, as well as the accounts of the fall in the Abraham and Moses books (in the Pearl of Great Price), you will not read of any Satan.

 

So the question for me personally is--if there is no Satan in these accounts, then why have we said that there is?  (And I think this reading and putting Satan in where there is not one pre-dates Joseph Smith, so again, when did this happen in our human religious paradigm, and why?)

 

If we read the 'Genesis' accounts plainly and as they are written--Satan-less--then what DO we have there?  What will that do to us in our understanding of the purpose and mechanisms of life?  I think it's a little much than most religious people are prepared for, to take that step, to read those accounts more plainly and to accept what is--and isn't--there.

 

Of course, reading beyond Genesis, Satan is introduced at some point in the paradigm of the records, such as in the story of Cain and Abel.

[Jazzdreamer]

If you read the Genesis accounts, as well as the accounts of the fall in the Abraham and Moses books (in the Pearl of Great Price), you will not read of any Satan.

So the question for me personally is--if there is no Satan in these accounts, then why have we said that there is? (And I think this reading and putting Satan in where there is not one pre-dates Joseph Smith, so again, when did this happen in our human religious paradigm, and why?)

If we read the 'Genesis' accounts plainly and as they are written--Satan-less--then what DO we have there? What will that do to us in our understanding of the purpose and mechanisms of life? I think it's a little much than most religious people are prepared for, to take that step, to read those accounts more plainly and to accept what is--and isn't--there.

Of course, reading beyond Genesis, Satan is introduced at some point in the paradigm of the records, such as in the story of Cain and Abel.

You're right actually...I've always just assumed the serpent was him

[JLHPROF]

Alright, I'm feeling slightly lost or confused at the moment...

we say satan is bad. We know he tempted eve to partake of the fruit who prompted Adam to do so as well.

Satan can't be all that awful if he helped in this. Right? Without him, who knows if eve would have ate the fruit...? He can't be entirely bad, Heavenly Father used him. Which is concerning, why would he want to help Heavenly Father with this great big plan since it goes against his idea?

I'm not necessarily saying satan is good but clearly he was part of heavenly fathers plan...so why would he help with that plan...if it completely went against his own ideas?

 

I've been thinking about this and here is why I believe Satan wanted to tempt Adam & Eve despite the fall actually being part of God's plan:  Without the fall Satan could not have achieved his goal any more than Heavenly Father could achieve his.

Heavenly Father's goal is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life (and to perpetuate the God's).  This required us to have physical bodies which will be resurrected.

 

Satans goal is to lead as many away from God as possible, but to do this he needs a few tools.  He needs us to be subject to mortal weaknesses.  He needs us to have our agency (to know good from evil) in order for us to choose evil.  He needs our lusts, our jealousies, our passions and our fears.  He needed us to be mortal, not bodyless spirits.

 

Basically, both God and Satan needed the fall to achieve their goals.  They worked from opposite ends towards the same goal.

[Jazzdreamer]

I've been thinking about this and here is why I believe Satan wanted to tempt Adam & Eve despite the fall actually being part of God's plan: Without the fall Satan could not have achieved his goal any more than Heavenly Father could achieve his.

Heavenly Father's goal is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life (and to perpetuate the God's). This required us to have physical bodies which will be resurrected.

Satans goal is to lead as many away from God as possible, but to do this he needs a few tools. He needs us to be subject to mortal weaknesses. He needs us to have our agency (to know good from evil) in order for us to choose evil. He needs our lusts, our jealousies, our passions and our fears. He needed us to be mortal, not bodyless spirits.

Basically, both God and Satan needed the fall to achieve their goals. They worked from opposite ends towards the same goal.

AHHHH this makes sense!!!

[Robert F. Smith]

Alright, I'm feeling slightly lost or confused at the moment...

we say satan is bad. We know he tempted eve to partake of the fruit who prompted Adam to do so as well.

Satan can't be all that awful if he helped in this. Right? Without him, who knows if eve would have ate the fruit...? He can't be entirely bad, Heavenly Father used him. Which is concerning, why would he want to help Heavenly Father with this great big plan since it goes against his idea?

I'm not necessarily saying satan is good but clearly he was part of heavenly fathers plan...so why would he help with that plan...if it completely went against his own ideas?

Yes, and without Satan the book of Job might not have been written.

Perhaps Satan is playing a necessary and vital ritual dramatic role in these instances (did Judas also play a necessary role in Jesus' atonement?).

In John Milton's "Paradise Lost," we even get Satan's point of view on the matter -- or at least what his point of view might have been.

[volgadon]

Yes, and without Satan the book of Job might not have been written.

Perhaps Satan is playing a necessary and vital ritual dramatic role in these instances (did Judas also play a necessary role in Jesus' atonement?).

In John Milton's "Paradise Lost," we even get Satan's point of view on the matter -- or at least what his point of view might have been.

 

Yet Germans had poodles...

[thesometimesaint]

I'm just confused how doctrine points to it, we discuss everyone was in the prelife...and satan laid out his plan and Jesus laid out his...so they both knew the other plan, why would satan help the plan of Jesus that he hated so much...like if I were satan, I would not have helped with the plan...

 

The sin was not in proposing another plan. The sin was in rebelling against God when that plan was rejected.

[Robert F. Smith]

If you read the Genesis accounts, as well as the accounts of the fall in the Abraham and Moses books (in the Pearl of Great Price), you will not read of any Satan.

 

So the question for me personally is--if there is no Satan in these accounts, then why have we said that there is?  (And I think this reading and putting Satan in where there is not one pre-dates Joseph Smith, so again, when did this happen in our human religious paradigm, and why?)

 

If we read the 'Genesis' accounts plainly and as they are written--Satan-less--then what DO we have there?  What will that do to us in our understanding of the purpose and mechanisms of life?  I think it's a little much than most religious people are prepared for, to take that step, to read those accounts more plainly and to accept what is--and isn't--there.

 

Of course, reading beyond Genesis, Satan is introduced at some point in the paradigm of the records, such as in the story of Cain and Abel.

Read my “Śaṭan: Notes on the Gods,” 2012 (version 2), online at http://www.scribd.com/lighthorseharry/d/58985133-Satan-Notes-on-the-Gods .

[Robert F. Smith]

Yet Germans had poodles...

Not sure I follow you, good buddy.

[volgadon]

Not sure I follow you, good buddy.

 

 

 

Mephistopheles following Faust.

[Rivers]

Alright, I'm feeling slightly lost or confused at the moment...

we say satan is bad. We know he tempted eve to partake of the fruit who prompted Adam to do so as well.

Satan can't be all that awful if he helped in this. Right? Without him, who knows if eve would have ate the fruit...? He can't be entirely bad, Heavenly Father used him. Which is concerning, why would he want to help Heavenly Father with this great big plan since it goes against his idea?

I'm not necessarily saying satan is good but clearly he was part of heavenly fathers plan...so why would he help with that plan...if it completely went against his own ideas?

Perhaps Satan did know exactly what he was doing by setting into motion God's plan.  But he also believed that he would be able to overthrow God's plan by tempting Christ in the wilderness.  And he was probably eager to start deceiving the rest of God's children. 

[Robert F. Smith]

Jazzdreamer, on 02 Nov 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Alright, I'm feeling slightly lost or confused at the moment...
we say satan is bad. We know he tempted eve to partake of the fruit who prompted Adam to do so as well.
Satan can't be all that awful if he helped in this. Right? Without him, who knows if eve would have ate the fruit...? He can't be entirely bad, Heavenly Father used him. Which is concerning, why would he want to help Heavenly Father with this great big plan since it goes against his idea?
I'm not necessarily saying satan is good but clearly he was part of heavenly fathers plan...so why would he help with that plan...if it completely went against his own ideas?

Perhaps Satan did know exactly what he was doing by setting into motion God's plan.  But he also believed that he would be able to overthrow God's plan by tempting Christ in the wilderness.  And he was probably eager to start deceiving the rest of God's children. 

On Nov 1 at UVU  in Orem, Utah, at the annual meeting of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology, Julie Smith delivered a brilliant paper on "Narrative Atonement Theology in the Gospel of Mark," in which she pointed out that the narrative structure of Mark guides our interpretation:

 

As the heavens "opened" (schizo), an enthronement Psalm is quoted in Mk 1:11 (God endorsing his Son, Ps 2:7) and parallels both the Centurion declaring Jesus the Son of God (15:39) as well as Psalm 22 in Mk 15:34 (Jesus speaking to God), as he dies and the veil of the temple is "rent" (15:38 schizo) -- a veil with cherubim woven on it, thus opening up the Holy of Holies and reversing the effects of the Fall, when cherubim barred the way back to the Garden of Eden, since Jesus had now overcome death and reconciled us all with God.  For, just as Jesus went into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil immediately after baptism, so Adam & Eve went into the wilderness immediately after being tempted by the Devil.  This inclusio (or bookends) in Mark is one reason to see that Gospel as a narrative designed for oral performance, as all of history is rewound.

 

Father Tom Roberts (priest from a Latin Rite background) commented there that the Gospel of Mark appears to be a Christian hagaddah!!  I am looking forward to the published version of Julie Smith's paper (she is no relation to me).

Edited November 3, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

 

 

Mephistopheles following Faust.