Kind Debater Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 I just would wonder why why you would care what others thought- and why that would affect your testimony. Doctrine is not determined by majority rule, and besides you have to go with what you know in your heart! True, doctrine is not determined by majority rule, because doctrine is not determined by people, but by God. But going with what you "know in your heart" is not always reliable. A lot of people "know in their heart" that God is going to save everyone, because they can't understand why a loving God would condemn anyone. But their being convinced of this doesn't make it true. The people Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:21-22 probably will be convinced in their heart that they are going to heaven -- after all, they're giving Jesus reasons why he should let them in -- but it won't do them any good.
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 Actually yes, the dead who got all their work done would get into the highest degree of glory and someone who joined the church and never got endowed would get a lower kingdom. That makes sense to me.So a dead person who did not even want their ordinances done and didn't believe, end up in a higher kingdom than a person who joined the church and got baptized? Ridiculous! That proves that it's what's in your heart that counts, not what ordinances you have had done for you.
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 True, doctrine is not determined by majority rule, because doctrine is not determined by people, but by God. But going with what you "know in your heart" is not always reliable. A lot of people "know in their heart" that God is going to save everyone, because they can't understand why a loving God would condemn anyone. But their being convinced of this doesn't make it true. The people Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:21-22 probably will be convinced in their heart that they are going to heaven -- after all, they're giving Jesus reasons why he should let them in -- but it won't do them any good. Is not always reliable?? As compared to what and how do YOU know what is or is not "reliable"? The problem is an epistemological one- it is how we can KNOW some action is or is not God's will. The only way we can know is by what is in our hearts. God has his standards- I am sure, but that is not the problem. The problem is knowing what those standards are. There is no way to get "beyond" what is in our hearts to what is "reliable".
JLHPROF Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 Actually yes, the dead who got all their work done would get into the highest degree of glory and someone who joined the church and never got endowed would get a lower kingdom. That makes sense to me. So a dead person who did not even want their ordinances done and didn't believe, end up in a higher kingdom than a person who joined the church and got baptized?Ridiculous!That proves that it's what's in your heart that counts, not what ordinances you have had done for you. A pox on both your houses ...just kidding, but you are both right. Someone who received all their ordinances will receive a higher exaltation than someone who didn't. BUT, someone who joined the church but was never able to receive their endowments will still have the opportunity to receive them.Everyone will eventually be given their choice to receive ALL the ordinances or to reject them. If a deceased person has their work done and rejects them of course they don't get exaltation.
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 11, 2013 Author Posted November 11, 2013 And someone who has their work done after they are dead can still choose to reject it if they want to, so it's not a guarantee they will receive celestial kingdom salvation just by the work being done itself. 1
Kind Debater Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 Is not always reliable?? As compared to what and how do YOU know what is or is not "reliable"? In this case, as compared to God's word. How do I know what is or isn't reliable? I know my thoughts and feelings are not always accurate sources of truth, because I've experienced many times that they've been wrong. I know God's word is reliable, because of my experience -- both experience in reading and learning from it, and experience in real life that matches what it says about God, human nature, etc. And what God's word says is that our hearts aren't reliable (Jeremiah 17:9) and that we should trust God instead of our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). The problem is an epistemological one- it is how we can KNOW some action is or is not God's will. The only way we can know is by what is in our hearts. God has his standards- I am sure, but that is not the problem. The problem is knowing what those standards are. There is no way to get "beyond" what is in our hearts to what is "reliable". Which is why God has spelled out what his standards are in the Bible, so that we do have a way of trusting in what he says vs. our own understanding.
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 (edited) In this case, as compared to God's word. How do I know what is or isn't reliable? I know my thoughts and feelings are not always accurate sources of truth, because I've experienced many times that they've been wrong. I know God's word is reliable, because of my experience -- both experience in reading and learning from it, and experience in real life that matches what it says about God, human nature, etc. And what God's word says is that our hearts aren't reliable (Jeremiah 17:9) and that we should trust God instead of our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). Which is why God has spelled out what his standards are in the Bible, so that we do have a way of trusting in what he says vs. our own understanding.And how do you know the bible is the word of God? Feelings in your heart. Why not the Zorastrian Avesta? It is much older and teaches the same principles. Edited November 11, 2013 by mfbukowski
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 11, 2013 Author Posted November 11, 2013 I will say ignorance is bliss. I didn't worry about the 3 levels of the Celestial Kingdom until I found out there were 3 levels.
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 And what God's word says is that our hearts aren't reliable (Jeremiah 17:9) and that we should trust God instead of our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5).What if it said to trust in Ahura Mazda? Or Zeus? Which would be right? How do you know?
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 11, 2013 Author Posted November 11, 2013 mfbukowski, what religion are you?
Lachoneus Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 And what God's word says is that our hearts aren't reliable (Jeremiah 17:9) and that we should trust God instead of our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). So you are saying that the two disciples who met the resurrected Christ on the road to Emmaus were wrong to have believed the burning in their hearts that testified to them that he had risen from the dead (Luke 24:32).
mfbukowski Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) mfbukowski, what religion are you?Lol. VERY LDS My point is that personal revelation is the only way we can know the truth of any religious matter. And yes, opinions differ. Oh WELL! Could it possibly be that God teaches each of us in his own customized curriculum according to what each of us needs? You know- line upon line? Of course! Edited November 12, 2013 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 So you are saying that the two disciples who met the resurrected Christ on the road to Emmaus were wrong to have believed the burning in their hearts that testified to them that he had risen from the dead (Luke 24:32).Clearly it must have been those jalapenos growing by the side of the road...
omni Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 So a dead person who did not even want their ordinances done and didn't believe, end up in a higher kingdom than a person who joined the church and got baptized?Ridiculous!That proves that it's what's in your heart that counts, not what ordinances you have had done for you.Completely agree! But does the church teach this?
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 12, 2013 Author Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) Completely agree! But does the church teach this?The church teaches that people have the opportunity to reject the work done for them in the next life, but if they do accept it then yes they end up in a higher degree of the kingdom then those who joined on this life and ONLY were baptized. Edited November 12, 2013 by VideoGameJunkie
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 12, 2013 Author Posted November 12, 2013 If I don't reach the top level of the Celestial Kingdom I will feel that I have failed at my potential in life.
mfbukowski Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 Completely agree! But does the church teach this? Of course.
Rob Osborn Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 If I don't reach the top level of the Celestial Kingdom I will feel that I have failed at my potential in life. And this thought is the real only fundamental flaw in our LDS doctrine that has led almost entirely to the false doctrine of our heaven.
BCSpace Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 The next level down, I think are for those individuals who have been sealed but for what ever reason their mate did not make it with them. Do you believe then, that faithful people whose spouse didn't make it will not have opportunity to find another spouse and hence not be exalted?
BCSpace Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 However, by virtue of keeping their first estate (siding with Christ in the war in heaven; everyone born on the earth did at least that), everyone will inherit at least a Telestial glory.BCSpace, are you saying you believe that no one will be in outer darkness? What about people who, at the end of their life, have completely rejected God? Wouldn't that nullify whatever they did prior to life on earth? There will be outer darkness. And, yes there will be daughters of perdition. Were all the one third cast out males? If so, that certainly is a case for plural marriage.... I sometimes tend to ignore that part when concentrating on the three degrees of glory. A testimony is to know by revelation that Jesus is the Christ; that Joseph Smith and his successors are the revealers of the knowledge of Christ and of salvation for our day; and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth, the one place where salvation may be found. How does believing that Joseph Smith and his successors are prophets compare to believing that Jesus is the Christ, etc.? Is rejecting Joseph Smith as a prophet equivalent to rejecting Jesus as the Son of God? What about prophets from Bible times -- if you reject Moses as a prophet (e.g. by not accepting the Bible as the word of God), would that be as bad as rejecting Smith? I have to agree with the Church's statement here. One cannot pick favorite prophets and ignore or reject others, Rejecting one true prophet is the same as rejecting all the prophets and rejecting Christ as well imho.
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 12, 2013 Author Posted November 12, 2013 And this thought is the real only fundamental flaw in our LDS doctrine that has led almost entirely to the false doctrine of our heaven.What is the true doctrine of our heaven?
Rob Osborn Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 What is the true doctrine of our heaven? In the end there will be one kingdom that Christ saves. This one kingdom will be those on the earth during the millennium who make up the kingdom of heaven on earth. At the end of the millennium there will be a separation of the sheep from the goats and the goats will be cast out while all the sheep receive eternal life to live in the direct presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
cdowis Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 What is the true doctrine of our heaven? Living in the presence of Christ -- otherwise known as the terrestrial kingdom.
Tacenda Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 Living in the presence of Christ -- otherwise known as the terrestrial kingdom.This would be my ideal heaven, and living in the presence of Christ (especially if Christ and God are one) and no separation from family and friends.
cdowis Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) del Edited November 12, 2013 by cdowis
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