Rob Osborn Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 He also speaks of varying rewards in the kingdom of heaven. Yes, varrying rewards in that singular kingdom.
BCSpace Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Yes, varrying rewards in that singular kingdom. Yes, those would be the various degrees of glory in the resurrection as the NT and the early Christian Fathers taught.
Maidservant Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 And how come Jesus never talked about the different kingdoms? He obviously knew about them. Was it not important to know about them in the Bible? What we have is Paul presenting this symbolism in 1 Corinthians (ch 15). You also have a lot of 'progression' threes-symbolisms-presented in a variety of ways without recourse to astronomy. Off the top of my head: Father ~ Son ~ Holy Ghost in the OT: the formation of the tabernacle had progression, three or four depending on how you see it: three: the court of laver, the inner temple, then the holy of holies. The fourth can be considered the court of the gentiles. Our temples today also follow this pattern although we may or may not call them by this and they have been repurposed a bit since the tabernacle was connected to the Aaronic priesthood and our temples are connected to the Melchizedek and the Patriarchal.
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 What we have is Paul presenting this symbolism in 1 Corinthians (ch 15). You also have a lot of 'progression' threes-symbolisms-presented in a variety of ways without recourse to astronomy. Off the top of my head: Father ~ Son ~ Holy Ghost in the OT: the formation of the tabernacle had progression, three or four depending on how you see it: three: the court of laver, the inner temple, then the holy of holies. The fourth can be considered the court of the gentiles. Our temples today also follow this pattern although we may or may not call them by this and they have been repurposed a bit since the tabernacle was connected to the Aaronic priesthood and our temples are connected to the Melchizedek and the Patriarchal.Thank you for that info.
Rob Osborn Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 And it should come no surprise that this earth is the Telestial kingdom- gift of the presence of the Holy Ghost. The ,millennium will be the Terrestrial kingdom- presence of the Son. After the millennium the Celestial kingdom, presence of the Father. 1
Lachoneus Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 It was an official teaching in the days of Brigham Young & John Taylor that only plural marriage can get you into the top degree of the Celestial Kingdom. . Really? Then why did he teach that a man could be exalted without taking a second wife? "Men and women will be saved in the celestial kingdom without even being married at all - others with only one wife, and some again with many wives - whoever continues faithful to the end, will have all the exaltation they can possibly enjoy." (Brigham Young, 5 The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 2700 (12 February 1870)) "Then Presidt Young spoke 58 Minuts. He said a Man may Embrace the Law of Celestial Marriage in his heart & not take the Second wife & be justified before the Lord." (Brigham Young, 7 Wilford Woodruff Journal 31 (24 September 1871)) 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 Really? Then why did he teach that a man could be exalted without taking a second wife? "Men and women will be saved in the celestial kingdom without even being married at all - others with only one wife, and some again with many wives - whoever continues faithful to the end, will have all the exaltation they can possibly enjoy." (Brigham Young, 5 The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 2700 (12 February 1870)) "Then Presidt Young spoke 58 Minuts. He said a Man may Embrace the Law of Celestial Marriage in his heart & not take the Second wife & be justified before the Lord." (Brigham Young, 7 Wilford Woodruff Journal 31 (24 September 1871)) Good, I know only need 1 wife. My uncle has been sealed to 2 women, but that was because his first wife died.
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 8, 2013 Author Posted November 8, 2013 I still hope that there are lots of people that agree with: Highest level- Sealed through marriageMiddle level- EndowedLower level- Baptized
BCSpace Posted November 8, 2013 Posted November 8, 2013 I still hope that there are lots of people that agree with: Highest level- Sealed through marriageMiddle level- EndowedLower level- Baptized I can agree with that. But you have to add 'valiant' as that is the difference between the Celestial and Terrestial. Only LDS will be in the Terrestial (the difference between that and the Telestial being the acceptance of the testimony of Jesus, the equivalent of joining the LDS Church) and they will of course be 'non valiant'.
Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2013 Posted November 8, 2013 I am quite sure God will save absolutely not one soul who has not accepted the testimony of Jesus Christ. What power is there in salvation if not in and through a belief and testimony in Jesus Christ? None at all.
BCSpace Posted November 8, 2013 Posted November 8, 2013 I am quite sure God will save absolutely not one soul who has not accepted the testimony of Jesus Christ. What power is there in salvation if not in and through a belief and testimony in Jesus Christ? None at all. It is true that ultimately everyone will be forced to bow the knee and every tongue forced to confess that Jesus is the Christ. But when that time comes, and one hasn't done it already by free will, it will be too late. However, by virtue of keeping their first estate (siding with Christ in the war in heaven; everyone born on the earth did at least that), everyone will inherit at least a Telestial glory. It is by keeping our second estate by obedience, having the testimony of Jesus, and valiancy, that we become eligible for greater degrees of glory. As for the testimony of Jesus, here is an excellent doctrinal read from BRM: What is the testimony of Jesus? And what must we do to be valiant therein? “Be not … ashamed of the testimony of our Lord,” Paul wrote to Timothy, “… but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel.” (2 Tim. 1:8.) And to the Beloved John came this divine message: “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Rev. 19:10.) The testimony of our Lord! The testimony of Jesus! What a glorious and wondrous concept! It opens the door to glory and honor with the Father and the Son forever! The testimony of Jesus is to believe in Christ, to receive his gospel, and to live his law. Jesus is the Lord. He is God’s own Son who came into the world to ransom us men from the temporal and spiritual death brought upon us by the fall of Adam. Jesus has bought us with his blood. He is the resurrection and the life. He “hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” (2 Tim. 1:10.) He is our Savior, our Redeemer, our Advocate with the Father. “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim. 2:5.) Salvation is in Christ. His is the only name given under heaven whereby this priceless gift may be won. Without him there would be no resurrection and all men would be forever lost. Without him there would be no eternal life, no return to the presence of a gracious Father, no celestial thrones for the saints. No tongue can tell, no mind can envision, no heart can conceive of all that comes to us because of him. “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.” (Rev 5:12.) Now there can be no perfect testimony of the divine Sonship of Christ and his saving goodness unless and until we receive the fulness of his everlasting gospel. A testimony of the gospel comes by revelation from the Holy Ghost. When the Holy Spirit speaks to the spirit within us, we then know with an absolute conviction of the verity of the revealed message. A testimony is to know by revelation that Jesus is the Christ; that Joseph Smith and his successors are the revealers of the knowledge of Christ and of salvation for our day; and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth, the one place where salvation may be found. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. It is a gift of the Spirit. It comes in full measure only to faithful members of the Church. It is reserved for those whose right it is to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. It is the spiritual endowment which sets a man apart as a prophet in fulfillment of the prayer of Moses: “Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!” (Num. 11:29.) Now what does it mean to be valiant in the testimony of Jesus? It is to be courageous and bold; to use all our strength, energy, and ability in the warfare with the world; to fight the good fight of faith. “Be strong and of a good courage,” the Lord commanded Joshua, and then specified that this strength and courage consisted of meditating upon and observing to do all that is written in the law of the Lord. (See Josh. 1:6–9.) The great cornerstone of valiance in the cause of righteousness is obedience to the whole law of the whole gospel. To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him”; it is to deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” and “love God” with all our “might, mind and strength.” (Moro. 10:32.) To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to believe in Christ and his gospel with unshakable conviction. It is to know of the verity and divinity of the Lord’s work on earth. But this is not all. It is more than believing and knowing. We must be doers of the word and not hearers only. It is more than lip service; it is not simply confessing with the mouth the divine Sonship of the Savior. It is obedience and conformity and personal righteousness. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 7:21.) To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to “press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men.” It is to “endure to the end.” (2 Ne. 31:20.) It is to live our religion, to practice what we preach, to keep the commandments. It is the manifestation of “pure religion” in the lives of men; it is visiting “the fatherless and widows in their affliction” and keeping ourselves “unspotted from the world.” (James 1:27.) To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to bridle our passions, control our appetites, and rise above carnal and evil things. It is to overcome the world as did he who is our prototype and who himself was the most valiant of all our Father’s children. It is to be morally clean, to pay our tithes and offerings, to honor the Sabbath day, to pray with full purpose of heart, to lay our all upon the altar if called upon to do so. To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to take the Lord’s side on every issue. It is to vote as he would vote. It is to think what he thinks, to believe what he believes, to say what he would say and do what he would do in the same situation. It is to have the mind of Christ and be one with him as he is one with his Father. Etc. http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1974/10/be-valiant-in-the-fight-of-faith?lang=eng One can listen to it as well from the link.
BCSpace Posted November 8, 2013 Posted November 8, 2013 Really? Then why did he teach that a man could be exalted without taking a second wife? "Men and women will be saved in the celestial kingdom without even being married at all - others with only one wife, and some again with many wives - whoever continues faithful to the end, will have all the exaltation they can possibly enjoy." (Brigham Young, 5 The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 2700 (12 February 1870)) "Then Presidt Young spoke 58 Minuts. He said a Man may Embrace the Law of Celestial Marriage in his heart & not take the Second wife & be justified before the Lord." (Brigham Young, 7 Wilford Woodruff Journal 31 (24 September 1871)) Only the highest degree of the CK is considered exaltation is it not? Without marriage, a man cannot have an increase and therefore does not become like God. 1
Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2013 Posted November 8, 2013 It is true that ultimately everyone will be forced to bow the knee and every tongue forced to confess that Jesus is the Christ. But when that time comes, and one hasn't done it already by free will, it will be too late. However, by virtue of keeping their first estate (siding with Christ in the war in heaven; everyone born on the earth did at least that), everyone will inherit at least a Telestial glory. It is by keeping our second estate by obedience, having the testimony of Jesus, and valiancy, that we become eligible for greater degrees of glory. Only those who repent and are baptized into the kingdom will be saved from hell. That much is fact.
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 8, 2013 Author Posted November 8, 2013 I wish the apostles touched more on this subject.
JLHPROF Posted November 9, 2013 Posted November 9, 2013 Only the highest degree of the CK is considered exaltation is it not? Without marriage, a man cannot have an increase and therefore does not become like God. Yes and yes. It is impossible to receive true exaltation in a single state.
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 9, 2013 Author Posted November 9, 2013 Yes and yes. It is impossible to receive true exaltation in a single state.That's why everyone should go find a spouse right now. 1
Tanzaneka Posted November 10, 2013 Posted November 10, 2013 Something happened and the first part of my post disappeared. So I begin again, The Highest level of the Celestial kingdom are for those couples who have been sealed in the Temple. Thye will continue to progress, and the "increase" is they will have children. When they have progressed and reached total exaltation they will have their own world to create and manage has our Heavenly Father has done for us. The next level down, I think are for those individuals who have been sealed but for what ever reason their mate did not make it with them. The lowest level of the celestial kingdom are for those who are endowed but never had the chance to be sealed.Where are the men who did not get sealed but who hold the priesthood? Where do they go? I understand it is commanded of men to attain this the highest level of priesthood. What does it mean when it talks of being appointed angels for those who were not sealed, but who were worthy of being sealed. Does this mean they will become angels or that angels will appointed to care for them? But why worry about this? We live according to the commandments of God and trust that when we die we will go to the place we deserve.
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 10, 2013 Author Posted November 10, 2013 But why worry about this? We live according to the commandments of God and trust that when we die we will go to the place we deserve.Because I'm afraid of what I deserve.
Maidservant Posted November 10, 2013 Posted November 10, 2013 None of us 'deserve' the atonement of Jesus Christ . . . none of us will 'deserve' our eternal life. None of us 'deserve' the blessings we enjoy in this life. The Doctrine of Covenants talks about how the celestial kingdom means those that have overcome. Overcome what? Well, to begin with, their sins and their hells, I would imagine. (Not by themselves, but through the atonement of Jesus). You also might like to put the key word "eternal life" in the lds.org scripture search and then refine the search to New Testament only and I think you will find it enlightening what eternal life is (to know God and many other interesting things are said).
Rob Osborn Posted November 10, 2013 Posted November 10, 2013 None of us 'deserve' the atonement of Jesus Christ . . . none of us will 'deserve' our eternal life. None of us 'deserve' the blessings we enjoy in this life. The Doctrine of Covenants talks about how the celestial kingdom means those that have overcome. Overcome what? Well, to begin with, their sins and their hells, I would imagine. (Not by themselves, but through the atonement of Jesus). You also might like to put the key word "eternal life" in the lds.org scripture search and then refine the search to New Testament only and I think you will find it enlightening what eternal life is (to know God and many other interesting things are said). One will notice also that everyone will receive one of two outcomes- that of eternal life or that of eternal death.
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 I still hope that there are lots of people that agree with: Highest level- Sealed through marriage Middle level- Endowed Lower level- BaptizedI just would wonder why why you would care what others thought- and why that would affect your testimony. Doctrine is not determined by majority rule, and besides you have to go with what you know in your heart! Also I think that these distinctions really don't make sense in terms of work for the dead, where all these ordinances are performed for everyone. So you are saying that if your work is done after you die, and therefore all the ordinances are complete, you get into the highest degree of glory? So a non-member could receive a higher degree because his work was done after he died, but someone who actually joined the church but never got endowed would be in a lower kingdom? That sure makes no sense to me. 1
Kind Debater Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 However, by virtue of keeping their first estate (siding with Christ in the war in heaven; everyone born on the earth did at least that), everyone will inherit at least a Telestial glory. BCSpace, are you saying you believe that no one will be in outer darkness? What about people who, at the end of their life, have completely rejected God? Wouldn't that nullify whatever they did prior to life on earth? A testimony is to know by revelation that Jesus is the Christ; that Joseph Smith and his successors are the revealers of the knowledge of Christ and of salvation for our day; and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth, the one place where salvation may be found. How does believing that Joseph Smith and his successors are prophets compare to believing that Jesus is the Christ, etc.? Is rejecting Joseph Smith as a prophet equivalent to rejecting Jesus as the Son of God? What about prophets from Bible times -- if you reject Moses as a prophet (e.g. by not accepting the Bible as the word of God), would that be as bad as rejecting Smith?
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 I wish the apostles touched more on this subject.They don't because they know it's not mechanical like this. It all depends on the contents of one's heart and how truly one would have embraced the gospel, not whether or not one has had human utterances and incantations spoken over them. Ordinances are to help US learn and progress, they are not magic. Discussions like this turn them into incantations, not ordinances. It's superstition. Watch out or I'll put a spell on you!
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 Yes and yes. It is impossible to receive true exaltation in a single state.Which one? Oh it has to be Missouri, right?
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 11, 2013 Author Posted November 11, 2013 I just would wonder why why you would care what others thought- and why that would affect your testimony. Doctrine is not determined by majority rule, and besides you have to go with what you know in your heart!Also I think that these distinctions really don't make sense in terms of work for the dead, where all these ordinances are performed for everyone.So you are saying that if your work is done after you die, and therefore all the ordinances are complete, you get into the highest degree of glory?So a non-member could receive a higher degree because his work was done after he died, but someone who actually joined the church but never got endowed would be in a lower kingdom? That sure makes no sense to me.Actually yes, the dead who got all their work done would get into the highest degree of glory and someone who joined the church and never got endowed would get a lower kingdom. That makes sense to me.
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