VideoGameJunkie Posted November 12, 2013 Author Posted November 12, 2013 My idea of heaven is being with my family and cats for eternity and being exalted, and that is only possible in the Celestial Kingdom.
Ahab Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 So it's common knowledge that there are 3 Kingdoms you can go to after you die: Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, and Telestial Kingdom. There are 3 levels within the Celestial Kingdom itself, so I'm wondering if anyone knows for sure who goes to what level of the Celestial Kingdom? This is my guess: Highest level- Sealed through marriage in the temple2nd level- Endowed in the templeLower level- Baptized Does anyone think differently?Glory equates to intelligence (the glory of God is intelligence), so the level of glory we will attain equates to how intelligent we will become. Just focus on learning as much as you can while trying your best to use your knowledge to the best use you can think of and maybe someday you'll be as intelligent as our Father in heaven.
Kind Debater Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 And how do you know the bible is the word of God?Feelings in your heart.There are times that I read the Bible and feel a sense of conviction or that God is speaking to me through those words. But that's not the only reason I believe it's the word of God. As I stated before, I've found that much of what it says is true through my own experiences. Additionally, there is historical evidence, fulfilled prophecy, etc. (though this is not something I focus on as much). Reason, experience and feeling/conviction combine to convince me that it is the word of God. It's not just feelings, or just logic, but a combination. Why not the Zorastrian Avesta? It is much older and teaches the same principles.Well, for starters, because I haven't heard of it before. But when I'm already convinced the Bible is the word of God, I have no reason to wonder if a text from a differing belief system is true instead, because the Bible essentially says it's not. I.e., I'm using reason and not just feelings.Presumably you would agree that witchcraft is wrong. Do you base that solely on feeling, or are you using reason as well? E.g. do you need to investigate witchcraft enough to get a feeling that it's wrong, or can you conclude from what you accept as Scripture/true teaching that it's wrong?
Tsuzuki Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 The Celestial Kingdom sounds boring. If I gain Exaltation, can I still go to Outer Darkness instead?
Kind Debater Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 So you are saying that the two disciples who met the resurrected Christ on the road to Emmaus were wrong to have believed the burning in their hearts that testified to them that he had risen from the dead (Luke 24:32). Good point. No, I'm not saying that they were wrong. However, the text says that Jesus interpreted the Scriptures for them (v. 27) and he miraculously vanished while seated with them (v. 31). So along with the burning in their hearts, they had Jesus teaching them and a miracle that they personally saw. Reason, feeling and experience all worked together in this case.
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) There are times that I read the Bible and feel a sense of conviction or that God is speaking to me through those words. But that's not the only reason I believe it's the word of God. As I stated before, I've found that much of what it says is true through my own experiences. Additionally, there is historical evidence, fulfilled prophecy, etc. (though this is not something I focus on as much). Reason, experience and feeling/conviction combine to convince me that it is the word of God. It's not just feelings, or just logic, but a combination. Well, for starters, because I haven't heard of it before. But when I'm already convinced the Bible is the word of God, I have no reason to wonder if a text from a differing belief system is true instead, because the Bible essentially says it's not. I.e., I'm using reason and not just feelings. Presumably you would agree that witchcraft is wrong. Do you base that solely on feeling, or are you using reason as well? E.g. do you need to investigate witchcraft enough to get a feeling that it's wrong, or can you conclude from what you accept as Scripture/true teaching that it's wrong?Well I think not knowing about other religions is not a good indicator that you have used "reason" to believe in the bible. Many religions believe the same things, so I am sure you would find that other religions would also work according to your experience. Many preach that one must love others and behave peacefully etc and to obey the principles we find in the 10 commandments. Maybe you have used reason but you have not given an good indication of that. And I am not sure what you mean by "witchcraft" - I am sure many Wiccans are good and kind people, though actually I don't know any personally. It seems to me that they are mostly pantheists- and that seems like a reasonable position to me If they are casting spells and such I think that is just superstition and ignorance- not "wrong"- but certainly that would indicate a hostile intention toward people, which IS wrong, I think. Edited November 14, 2013 by mfbukowski
Tsuzuki Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) I am sure many Wiccans are good and kind people, though actually I don't know any personally.In my experience, they can be kind of flaky. They RSVP for the ritual, but by the time they show up, the demon has already come and gone. And then they eat all the refreshments! Edited November 14, 2013 by Tsuzuki 1
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 In my experience, they can be kind of flaky. They RSVP for the ritual, but by the time they show up, the demon has already come and gone. And then they eat all the refreshments!Hey Mr T! What's up? Well I am not really qualified to know what is up with those guys!
Tsuzuki Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 Hey Mr T!What's up?School kicking my butt is what's up for the most part. Also about to do my II* initiation in the O.T.O. Well I am not really qualified to know what is up with those guys!Heh. Well, that's the stereotype within the pagan community.
Kind Debater Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 Well I think not knowing about other religions is not a good indicator that you have used "reason" to believe in the bible.1. I said I didn't know about a particular religious text, not that I didn't know about any other religions.2. In some cases, it is logical or logically necessary to investigate all possible options before being able to determine which one is correct. In other cases, it isn't. For instance, when the directions on a bottle of medicine say to take one pill every eight hours, I don't find it necessary to test it and take two every four hours to see what happens. I trust the directions, because I have reason to believe they're correct, based on what I know of how they were determined (i.e. there is some level of testing and verification involved) and my past experiences in following (or accidentally not following) them. Many religions believe the same things, so I am sure you would find that other religions would also work according to your experience. Many preach that one must love others and behave peacefully etc and to obey the principles we find in the 10 commandments.I've never heard of another religion that openly admits that humans have a real problem with sin and self-deception, that we can never be good enough to be in the presence of a holy God and gives a workable solution to that problem. Most religions involve people following a set of rules to get into heaven.Meanwhile, I have heard of people using feelings/emotional conviction to believe in any number of things. What is your reason for believing that the feelings of your heart are leading you in the right direction? Or do you believe that one religion is as valid/correct as another, so it doesn't matter that much which one your feelings direct you towards? Maybe you have used reason but you have not given an good indication of that.Well, I tried to outline my reasons for believing as I do without going into a lot of detail. I'm not feeling a strong need to write a long essay to convince you that I have good reasons for my beliefs. The main point I want to make is not so much that I'm right, but to question how you know for sure you're right when you are apparently heavily relying on subjective feelings to determine truth. If you want to make the case that using reason to decide which religion is true necessitates investigating all known religions and comparing them, and that's how you decided to become LDS, then I will agree that you used a reasonable procedure (while disagreeing with your conclusion :-) ). If you decided to become LDS solely because of a "burning in your heart" and/or you use how you feel about various LDS teachings to determine which ones you think are true, including teachings about the afterlife, then I will question how you know you're right. And I am not sure what you mean by "witchcraft" - I am sure many Wiccans are good and kind people, though actually I don't know any personally. It seems to me that they are mostly pantheists- and that seems like a reasonable position to meIf they are casting spells and such I think that is just superstition and ignorance- not "wrong"- but certainly that would indicate a hostile intention toward people, which IS wrong, I think.I don't disagree with you that there are nice, well-intentioned Wiccans.It appears that I made a false assumption about what sorts of beliefs you and I have in common, though. Do you believe that the Bible is correct? If not, do you believe the BoM is 100% correct?
HiJolly Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 The Celestial Kingdom sounds boring. If I gain Exaltation, can I still go to Outer Darkness instead?Been a while, big T! You would have to give up all your glory to do so. Quite a price!
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) It appears that I made a false assumption about what sorts of beliefs you and I have in common, though. Do you believe that the Bible is correct? If not, do you believe the BoM is 100% correct?Well it's all a lot more complicated than that. It would take a lot of explaining to get us on the same wavelength and I am not sure that I have the time, quite frankly. But let me put it this way:I believe that the Bible and BOM are the word of God. I think that there is no better reason to accept the bible than there is to accept the BOM. Historicity doesn't count, none of this is scientifically verifiable, and all of it boils down to subjective feelings in the final analysis.You cannot prove- ever- that Jesus even existed much less rose from the dead. You either know that in your heart or you don't.You either know that the bible is true in your heart or you don't. You either know that the Book of Mormon is true in your heart or you don't.The bottom line is the resurrection and that feeling that Christians have when they accept Christ.You cannot or will never be able to prove that at that moment of the altar call when they come forward, they are thinking about history or what is reasonable or whether or not biblical archaeology proves the truth of the resurrection.They are feeling the Holy Spirit in their hearts and responding to the call. Period, end of story. If you decided to become LDS solely because of a "burning in your heart" and/or you use how you feel about various LDS teachings to determine which ones you think are true, including teachings about the afterlife, then I will question how you know you're right.So now picture the most charismatic preacher you have ever heard asking for people to accept Christ, and someone comes forward to do so. Afterwords, you meet with that person and YOU say to him: "If you decided to become Christian solely because of a "burning in your heart" and/or you use how you feel about various Biblical teachings to determine which ones you think are true, including teachings about the afterlife, then I will question how you know you're right." So how do you know you are right? Edited November 14, 2013 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 Been a while, big T! You would have to give up all your glory to do so. Quite a price!Aw, he just wants to hang out with his buddies! 1
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 How reasonable are Christians being when they are speaking in tongues?
thesometimesaint Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 The Celestial Kingdom sounds boring. If I gain Exaltation, can I still go to Outer Darkness instead? By definition No.
Ahab Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 How reasonable are Christians being when they are speaking in tongues?... without an interpreter, you mean??? As long as I can get a translator I don't have a problem with it.
Tsuzuki Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) Been a while, big T!Yes it has. I'm in the Illuminati now, by the way.http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60755-thelema-and-mormonism/ You would have to give up all your glory to do so. Quite a price!Would I? "If I were to go into the bowels of hell to find out what is there, that does not make it necessary that I should commit one evil, or blaspheme in any way the name of my Maker." - Brigham Young Edited November 14, 2013 by Tsuzuki
Tsuzuki Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 Aw, he just wants to hang out with his buddies! Pretty much.
Ahab Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 Yes it has. I'm in the Illuminati now, by the way. Would I? "If I were to go into the bowels of hell to find out what is there, that does not make it necessary that I should commit one evil, or blaspheme in any way the name of my Maker." - Brigham YoungI'm glad to see how quickly you could shoot that one down. I think it's just harder to go up than it is to go down.
Tsuzuki Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 I'm glad to see how quickly you could shoot that one down. I think it's just harder to go up than it is to go down."I reveal unto you a great mystery. Ye stand between the abyss of height and the abyss of depth.In either awaits you a Companion; and that Companion is Yourself.Ye can have no other Companion.Many have arisen, being wise. They have said "Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It."Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime."I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other!My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells.But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher.Thus shall equilibrium become perfect. I will aid my disciples; as fast as they acquire this balanced power and joy so faster will I push them.They shall in their turn speak from this Invisible Throne; their words shall illumine the worlds.They shall be masters of majesty and might; they shall be beautiful and joyous; they shall be clothed with victory and splendour; they shall stand upon the firm foundation; the kingdom shall be theirs; yea, the kingdom shall be theirs."- Aleister Crowley, Liber Tzaddi 33-44http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib90.htm
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 15, 2013 Author Posted November 15, 2013 I need to stop sinning so I can be eligible.
Calm Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 The Celestial Kingdom sounds boring. If I gain Exaltation, can I still go to Outer Darkness instead?I would hav thought you would find the act of creation fascinating... Outer Darkness to me is likely a place of entropy...people who have so determinedly refused to see the truth...rejected it instead or to abide by/align their hearts, minds and soul with the Will that leads to true freedom that they've locked themselves into a state of nonchanging, nondoing, stasis...at best I would describe it as an eternity of being a couch potato watching reality shows one isn't interested in at all.
Calm Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 I've never heard of another religion that openly admits that humans have a real problem with sin and self-deception, that we can never be good enough to be in the presence of a holy God and gives a workable solution to that problem. Most religions involve people following a set of rules to get into heaven. What is "workable" and what isn't generally is opinion based, imo.
Calm Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 Yes it has. I'm in the Illuminati now, by the way.http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60755-thelema-and-mormonism/ Would I? "If I were to go into the bowels of hell to find out what is there, that does not make it necessary that I should commit one evil, or blaspheme in any way the name of my Maker." - Brigham YoungStill, unless most of the others there are also those who went there to "find out", I don't see it as all that interesting myself.
Ahab Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 I need to stop sinning so I can be eligible.You're eligible if you repent when you sin and you don't sin intentionally. We all have moments of weakness, so don't be too hard on yourself. As long as you're working toward a state of perfection, with your mind set on following Christ and doing what you know he has told you to do, you'll be covered. Doesn't that make you want to have a party? Somebody play the happy music and turn it up so all can hear it! 2
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