When Did Adam First Walk The Earth?

[jkwilliams]

Sometimes it is better to pay attention instead of rolling your eyes.  The worst that could happen is you would gain another perspective and, who knows, you might even learn something valuable.

We paid attention, or we wouldn't have known when to roll our eyes.

I'm just saying that we paid tuition for a class that was to help us prepare for our missions. The professor almost never talked about missionary preparation in that class, hence the eye-rolling. I also had a New Testament class in which we spent two weeks talking about the evils of public education. Even if I hadn't paid tuition, I would much rather have been learning about missionary preparation and the New Testament. I don't think that's too much to ask.

There's a time and a place for discussions about cayenne pepper, but that's generally not what you pay tuition to learn in a religion class.

[MDalby]

So if my parents were born on earth, and raised on earth, and eat the food of the earth, then I could understand how my parents could biologically reproduce me *and* I could be formed "of the dust of the earth" since the physical aspect of my parents is nothing more than dust of the earth from which I am physically formed at reproduction.

However, if Adam's mother and Father were extra terrestrials (ie kolobites or whatever), then when they reproduced Adam could be formed of the dust of Kolob, but presumably not Earth.

How do you explain Adam as both biologically descended of God Kolobite *and* formed of the dust of the earth?

 

We don't know what is fully meant by the phrase dust of the earth. 

[cinepro]

If that was intended humorously a wink or other indicator adds clarity to second party perception.

In case it was intended seriously,

1. Do you have a reference for that?

2. If physical death wasn't possible before the fall, why would it be possible on Kolob, and if death is restricted to earth, would this make it impossible in your view to die by exiting earth, for example would death be impossible on Mars or the moon?

 

 

There are two really important questions answered in this New Era article.  One question deals with the scope of Christ's atonement to other planets:

 

 

 

Relative to the role of the Son as Redeemer to this earth, the prophet Enoch received an explanation of Adam’s fall and also was told that “the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt” (Moses 6:54). He was further informed that, under the conditions of that atonement, mankind would be “cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory” (Moses 6:59). If redemption is the work of the Lord in this earth, what then is understood concerning his participation as a redeemer in the other worlds referred to? The Prophet Joseph Smith expanded our understanding of Christ’s relationship to those habitations.

 

(The other question deals with "petting", and it's not talking about Kolobian sheep)

Edited October 16, 2013 by cinepro

[Stone holm]

Yes, but should that be the focus of a religion class at a university? I remember my cousin saying to me, "Can you believe we're paying tuition for this?"

 

You would prefer more milk?

[jkwilliams]

You would prefer more milk?

Religion classes at BYU were for me a mixed bag. Some were excellent, such as the two Doctrine and Covenants classes I took and the class I took called "History of the International Church." Some were not so great, such as the two I've mentioned in this thread.

In the classes I liked, I learned a lot, both what I would consider "milk" and "meat." The classes I didn't enjoy spent too much time on topics unrelated to the scriptures, such that there wasn't even much time for milk.

[Stone holm]

Religion classes at BYU were for me a mixed bag. Some were excellent, such as the two Doctrine and Covenants classes I took and the class I took called "History of the International Church." Some were not so great, such as the two I've mentioned in this thread.

In the classes I liked, I learned a lot, both what I would consider "milk" and "meat." The classes I didn't enjoy spent too much time on topics unrelated to the scriptures, such that there wasn't even much time for milk.

 

Sometimes I miss the wonder of my old Branch back in Indiana where you were likely to hear most anything over the pulpit, I especially loved talks about Sun being a Celestial Kingdom and ones based on folklore from the Talmud... oh those were the days ... now unfortunately I think most of them are running around with tri-cornered hats with these little bags tied to them...they were much more fun when they were quoting Skousen in Church than when they decided to go political... ah well....

[JLHPROF]

Sometimes I miss the wonder of my old Branch back in Indiana where you were likely to hear most anything over the pulpit, I especially loved talks about Sun being a Celestial Kingdom and ones based on folklore from the Talmud... oh those were the days ... now unfortunately I think most of them are running around with tri-cornered hats with these little bags tied to them...they were much more fun when they were quoting Skousen in Church than when they decided to go political... ah well....

 

Oh, that would be fun.  Something to actually discuss at least.

[Stone holm]

Oh, that would be fun.  Something to actually discuss at least.

 

Yeah we kind of had to do a thing to the Stake President's eyes when he was done with a visit to get them uncrossed.  It was a slightly crazy branch, that somehow completely missed not only the "milk before meat" memo, but the don't discuss the mysteries one as well.  But many could quote you chapter and verse from the JoD and from the Pratt biographies.  My other favorite one was the sermon about how the Pratt's saw masonic symbols in the sky which led them to Joseph Smith and Orrin Porter Rockwell shaking bullets from his coat...

[cdowis]

Umh, this whole argument assumes that the Garden of Eden and its special condition encompasses the whole Earth.  The Whole Earth as Garden of Eden presents a lot of unnecessary problems with Scientific studies.  If the Garden of Eden is, on the other hand, only that a Garden place -- then you have animals outside the Garden living, dying, laying down sediment, being compressed into coal and oil, etc. etc. -- so they can provide the required materials.

 

"The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden"  implies that there was a location called Eden in which a garden was planted.  And it was "eastward", whatever that means.

 

This implies that the garden was not the whole earth.  The conditions "outside" the garden are speculative but I have suggested elsewhere that the five days of the creation included death and that death was suspended on the sixth day.

Edited October 16, 2013 by cdowis

[canard78]

"The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden"  implies that there was a location called Eden in which a garden was planted.  And it was "eastward", whatever that means.

 

This implies that the garden was not the whole earth.  The conditions "outside" the garden are speculative but I have suggested elsewhere that the five days of the creation included death and that death was suspended on the sixth day.

 

Missouri's not very East...

[JLHPROF]

Yeah we kind of had to do a thing to the Stake President's eyes when he was done with a visit to get them uncrossed.  It was a slightly crazy branch, that somehow completely missed not only the "milk before meat" memo, but the don't discuss the mysteries one as well.  But many could quote you chapter and verse from the JoD and from the Pratt biographies.  My other favorite one was the sermon about how the Pratt's saw masonic symbols in the sky which led them to Joseph Smith and Orrin Porter Rockwell shaking bullets from his coat...

 

Now those are Sunday school lessons I could get behind...talk about "tell a story" to teach a lesson.

[JLHPROF]

Missouri's not very East...

 

Depends where you start from on a globe...Missouri is VERY east depending where you start.

[canard78]

Depends where you start from on a globe...Missouri is VERY east depending where you start.

 

Who wrote Genesis 2:8 "And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden?"

 

Given it's one of Judaism's creation narratives, in what direction is Missouri for the Jews?

[Lachoneus]

Missouri's not very East...

 

East of what? Missouri is East of Utah, but it is West of New York. Where is your starting reference point?

 

Or maybe "eastward in Eden" just means that it is in the eastern region of a land known as "Eden."

[JLHPROF]

Who wrote Genesis 2:8 "And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden?"

 

Given it's one of Judaism's creation narratives, in what direction is Missouri for the Jews?

 

Nobody said eastward from the Jews, only eastward from where God was, ie, God planted a garden eastward.

Also, If the Jews head towards China and the Pacific, then Missouri is still Eastward.  Since the Jews in Moses' time theoretically had no concept of the America's, who knows which way they pointed towards them.  Last I checked the earth was still a globe.

 

It's a bit silly to say that Eden can't be in Missouri because Moses wrote Eastward.

Edited October 16, 2013 by JLHPROF

[Stone holm]

Missouri's not very East...

East is a relative term and it may have been before the continents divided, plus North America looked very differently with inland seas, etc

[rick7475]

Sorry to come in this late.

 

I don't believe the D&C 77 - 7000 years figure to be exact, and it reflects the 7 seals each of a 1,000 years, which follows OT use of the number 1,000 referring to a large undefined number. I think a nice round number is just a representation of a large amount of time, like a day in the Lord.

 

2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

I was reading an article on Jewish uses of numbers on the JewishVirtualLibrary site and the use of 1,000 is generally a large number, but not necessarily exactly that number. So 7,000 years might be a lot bigger. In fact, the Old Testament inflates figures by multiples of 1,000. I think that the 7,000 figure, along with the Seven Seals, each representing a time period of 1,000 years, are representative of large unknown quantities.

 

As for Adam and Eve, I think there were plenty of humans around when they came to the earth from a Terrestrial Garden setting. The garden was separate from earth, protected by angels with flaming swords. I'm not sure of the date, probably when people were starting to create more permanent communities, perhaps 6000 BC or 10,000 BC, just a guess. The other human beings had evolved where their bodies were ready to receive spirits, so Adam and Eve were the prototypes, the first to have a body of spirit and flesh. They received a spirit being from the Pre-mortal existence (Michael for Adam). The other humans were at a stage where instinctual  intelligence was at an end and they were ready to receive the spirits created by God the Father.

[Stone holm]

Sorry to come in this late.

 

I don't believe the D&C 77 - 7000 years figure to be exact, and it reflects the 7 seals each of a 1,000 years, which follows OT use of the number 1,000 referring to a large undefined number. I think a nice round number is just a representation of a large amount of time, like a day in the Lord.

 

2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

I was reading an article on Jewish uses of numbers on the JewishVirtualLibrary site and the use of 1,000 is generally a large number, but not necessarily exactly that number. So 7,000 years might be a lot bigger. In fact, the Old Testament inflates figures by multiples of 1,000. I think that the 7,000 figure, along with the Seven Seals, each representing a time period of 1,000 years, are representative of large unknown quantities.

 

As for Adam and Eve, I think there were plenty of humans around when they came to the earth from a Terrestrial Garden setting. The garden was separate from earth, protected by angels with flaming swords. I'm not sure of the date, probably when people were starting to create more permanent communities, perhaps 6000 BC or 10,000 BC, just a guess. The other human beings had evolved where their bodies were ready to receive spirits, so Adam and Eve were the prototypes, the first to have a body of spirit and flesh. They received a spirit being from the Pre-mortal existence (Michael for Adam). The other humans were at a stage where instinctual  intelligence was at an end and they were ready to receive the spirits created by God the Father.

Interesting never heard that theory before.

[rick7475]

I picked it up from these boards or others years ago.

[mfbukowski]

Sometimes I miss the wonder of my old Branch back in Indiana where you were likely to hear most anything over the pulpit, I especially loved talks about Sun being a Celestial Kingdom and ones based on folklore from the Talmud... oh those were the days ... now unfortunately I think most of them are running around with tri-cornered hats with these little bags tied to them...they were much more fun when they were quoting Skousen in Church than when they decided to go political... ah well....

I missed something.  What planet was this, now?

[Stone holm]

I missed something. What planet was this, now?

Third rock from the Sun, back in Hoosierland.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Stone holm

[canard78]

Nobody said eastward from the Jews, only eastward from where God was, ie, God planted a garden eastward.

Also, If the Jews head towards China and the Pacific, then Missouri is still Eastward.  Since the Jews in Moses' time theoretically had no concept of the America's, who knows which way they pointed towards them.  Last I checked the earth was still a globe.

 

It's a bit silly to say that Eden can't be in Missouri because Moses wrote Eastward.

 

I guess so. Problem is I was probably getting too literal in my conversation with something I don't consider to be particularly literal.

 

The whole story of the garden/Eden/first parents is an important one in my faith. But it's the principles in the story I care about. I'm uncertain of whether there was any historical eden (with angels with flaming swords/fruit to eat etc). The messages are far more important to me as symbols/metaphors than as historical facts.

[ERayR]

I missed something.  What planet was this, now?

 

Possibly the same one Brigham Young had in mind.

[thesometimesaint]

Missouri's not very East...

It is for me.

[ERayR]

It is for me.

 

Me too.