Prophets Saw Our Day

[Duncan]

I'm sure it isn't. But I think it may be the leading cause of active, highly-committed, temple-recommend-holding members going inactive.

I agree with you though. I think most inactivity stems from other causes—apathy, guilt, feelings of not fitting in/not connecting with other ward members, getting offended, addictions, dating/marrying non-members, being gay, etc.

all true!

[omni]

I'm sure it isn't. But I think it may be the leading cause of active, highly-committed, temple-recommend-holding members going inactive.

I agree with you though. I think most inactivity stems from other causes—apathy, guilt, feelings of not fitting in/not connecting with other ward members, getting offended, addictions, dating/marrying non-members, being gay, etc.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't have any data to back this up, but I would think worldwide the largest cause of inactivity is apathy. There's a major retention problem in the church because I think for many converts they were looking for something, hoping for something to give them a better life. At the beginning It's all new and exciting. You receive all this attention from the missionaries and members of the ward and you experience these warm conforting feelings. But after awhile these can dissipate, you often have to make major lifestyle changes, spend time in church and callings, and to top out off you still have many of the problems you had before you were baptized. Without the lifetime of cultural experiences and familial and social pressures it would be easy to fall away at the first exposure to critical material.

The difference now is that in addition to losing these converts or lifetime members (who never felt like they fit in) you now have a significant number of previously strong members who are experiencing a faith crisis and falling away. IMO, we are losing some of our best and brightest.

Edited July 25, 2013 by omni

[Questing Beast]

I think this happens in many areas of Church endeavor, where those with advanced expertise in a particular area try to point out the wrong direction they see the Church going in (or in this post, how the Church should have gone). For example, I know a man who (in the 1970s as a computer systems contractor with the Church), who tells this story: he saw the leadership heading in the wrong direction with key decisions in developing its IT infrastructure. He tried to advise an alternative, and shared his views openly. These views were largely presented as an objective "critique", but due to his personality he was very blunt and opinionated about it, and confesses to have spoken to more people than necessary. At any rate, he was corrected and told by the key sponsor (a member of the Twelve), essentially, "I may be wrong, but I've got the keys and have to do what I have to do."

Who knows: sometimes those with surgical precision in their views fail to see the bigger and more general picture which those with the keys are working with and need to attend to at the moment. Or they fail to see the constraints set by other demands for resources, or other priorities. Maybe the Church's current efforts would have failed and created more trouble had they been attempted during a time of less developed methods and technology. For example, an emphasis on history prior to an emphasis on temples would have undermined what we have today to use toward historical, missionary, PEF or humanitarian efforts, or any number of other important things.

I trust that the Lord handles the direction of the efforts in His Church in their most optimal times and places.

Why did you post this exact thing twice on the same thread? Weird....

[Questing Beast]

I particularly object to the charge by some that the church has "hidden" it's history. The documents have always been available, it's just that nobody bothered to read them. The difference now is that the internet has made them more readily available, especially to people who would ordinarily not have sufficient interest to seek them out.

It is not the mission of the church to be objective on these matters. The church will put the best interpretation or spin on difficult issues, our enemies the worst. This is nothing new and has been going on for years.

What I find interesting is that none of the historical information now appearing to trouble people is new or freshly revealed. It's been around for decades for the most part. It's just the same old stuff re-packaged. As the preacher said in Ecclesiastes, there is "nothing new under the sun".

The information is there, but the original sources in the Church's possession have often been unavailable. "Zarahemla? This is checkpoint rameumptom six. Balaam's *** wishes admittance. Please advise..." (that's taken from memory of a Bagley cartoon making fun of this problem back in the 90s)

The Church is in fact responsible to make objective history out of the evidence. If it doesn't somebody else will. Comparative objective histories will disagree. That is how history always "works". Religious history is no different. This is evidence that God does not care. Nobody is being disabused of his religious history, we are all free to believe what we accept as reality. So I agree with your quote at the end of your post, and Mormons are no exception....

[CV75]

Why did you post this exact thing twice on the same thread? Weird....

To weird you out!

To weird you out!

[teddyaware]

In light of the recent discussions spurred by Hans Mattsson's "coming out" as a doubter, I decided to re-read some letters sent by LDS historians to Elder Boyd K. Packer in 1981 in response to his now-famous address, "The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect."

Reading these letters, it is difficult to escape the impression that some of these historians truly saw our day. One letter, by James L. Clayton, struck me as being especially prescient:

Another respondent to Elder Packer's talk wrote:

So here we are, 30 plus years later, with the Church now reaping the whirlwind from its policy of withholding uncomfortable truths and presenting a selective, sanitized history to its members (apparently not having anticipated the reach of Google and YouTube and the blogosphere).

The Church now appears to be in damage control mode (a belated but welcome development in my view), sending flying columns of historians and church functionaries out to stanch the bleeding. I think we can safely say that a major shift has taken place when we hear Elder Jensen telling the Swedish Saints that Elder Packer (!) has directed the Church History department to "put together a committee to create answers to difficult gospel questions."

In the Book of Mormon, we read the following prophecy:

6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken. (1 Nephi 14)

The above prophecy indicates that sometime after the Restored Kingdom of God and has been established over all the face of the earth, the Lord is going to "work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men." Further, we are told that in some way, not yet fully understood, this great and marvelous work of the Lord is going to cause the children of men to have to make a monumental choice; and that choice is either to believe and fully embrace the Restored Church and Gospel of Christ, and thereby reap eternal blessings, or to reject the Restored Church and Gospel and suffer the consequences of that rejection.

In his October 1988 General Conference address, I testify, President Ezra Taft Benson echoed Nephi's angelically delivered prophecy with these words:

"I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil."

From my perspective, I believe the apparent recent increased in cases of "shaken faith syndrome" are probably prelude to this future epic worldwide controversy as to whether or not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is what its Prophets, members and scriptures claim it to be -- the Restored Kingdom of God on earth.

Nephi's prophecy continues:

"11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church..."

And so we learn that the time will come when the entire world of the wicked, who reject the Lord and His Prophets, will gather their massive forces to fight against the Lord and (by extension) His Church. When that great moment of spiritual conflict arrives, the prophecy declares Nephi "beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory." (1 Nephi 14)

Because I believe the above prophecy is true, I'm not too concerned with worrying myself over whether or not the General Authorities of the Lord's Church are handling the shaken faith syndrome issue in a manner pleasing to those who consider certain church historians to be greater prophets (at least on the issue shaken faith syndrome) than the living Apostles and Prophets who lead the Church.

Any potential concerns of mine on this issue are also allayed by the fact the prophecy says "And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church." The reason why this passage ministers comfort to my soul on this controversial issue is because it tells us the Lord knows how to effectively take care of His own business.

Edited July 25, 2013 by teddyaware

[Nevo]

In the Book of Mormon, we read the following prophecy . . .

Since we're quoting prophecy now, perhaps you remember this one:

For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well. (2 Nephi 28:20–21)

Thankfully the Brethren have not lapsed into a Zoramitish indifference toward those struggling with doubt. They remember the Parable of the Lost Sheep. Regarding those whose faith is lacking, but who believe in him, the Lord counseled the Church to "bear their infirmities" (D&C 42:52). Elsewhere he commanded his servants to "succor the weak, lift up the hands which hang down, and strengthen the feeble knees" (D&C 81:5).

[canard78]

Thank you Nevo. You are a genuine god-send on this board. I appreciate your contribution.

I'm very glad to be going through my faith transition in a day and age when all information is accessible and there's a place like this board with a range of views to discuss the issues.

I can't imagine how lonely a faith crisis based on history must have been 20-30 years ago when the church was still trying to circle the wagons.

[teddyaware]

deleted

Edited July 25, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Since we're quoting prophecy now, perhaps you remember this one:

For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well. (2 Nephi 28:20–21)

Thankfully the Brethren have not lapsed into a Zoramitish indifference toward those struggling with doubt. They remember the Parable of the Lost Sheep. Regarding those whose faith is lacking, but who believe in him, the Lord counseled the Church to "bear their infirmities" (D&C 42:52). Elsewhere he commanded his servants to "succor the weak, lift up the hands which hang down, and strengthen the feeble knees" (D&C 81:5).

Your post is appreciated and I agree with you. My point is that I personally trust the wisdom, discernment, judgment and strategic timing of the Lord and His chosen leaders more than do some second guessing critics of the Church leaders who post on this board.

The prophecies are clear, the Lord and His people are going to win and the enemies of the Restored Kingdom of God are going to lose in a very big way. That tells me the Lord and the leaders of the Church are going to do just fine. All this lack of faith in and constant criticism of the living Apostles and Prophets of the Lord's Church begins to smack of incipient apostasy.

Why should not these naysayers and ark steadiers take a leap of faith and make a conscious effort to supplant the negative and faithless attitudes that generate all this criticism and second guessing with a positive attitude of faith and trust in the Lord that He knows how to chose His own earthly leaders and how to successfully guide them in the paths of wisdom.

Edited July 25, 2013 by teddyaware

[Questing Beast]

In the Book of Mormon, we read the following prophecy:

6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken. (1 Nephi 14)

The above prophecy indicates that sometime after the Restored Kingdom of God and has been established over all the face of the earth, the Lord is going to "work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men." Further, we are told that in some way, not yet fully understood, this great and marvelous work of the Lord is going to cause the children of men to have to make a monumental choice; and that choice is either to believe and fully embrace the Restored Church and Gospel of Christ, and thereby reap eternal blessings, or to reject the Restored Church and Gospel and suffer the consequences of that rejection.

In his October 1988 General Conference address, I testify, President Ezra Taft Benson echoed Nephi's angelically delivered prophecy with these words:

"I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil."

From my perspective, I believe the apparent recent increased in cases of "shaken faith syndrome" are probably prelude to this future epic worldwide controversy as to whether or not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is what its Prophets, members and scriptures claim it to be -- the Restored Kingdom of God on earth.

Nephi's prophecy continues:

"11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church..."

And so we learn that the time will come when the entire world of the wicked, who reject the Lord and His Prophets, will gather their massive forces to fight against the Lord and (by extension) His Church. When that great moment of spiritual conflict arrives, the prophecy declares Nephi "beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory." (1 Nephi 14)

Because I believe the above prophecy is true, I'm not too concerned with worrying myself over whether or not the General Authorities of the Lord's Church are handling the shaken faith syndrome issue in a manner pleasing to those who consider certain church historians to be greater prophets (at least on the issue shaken faith syndrome) than the living Apostles and Prophets who lead the Church.

Any potential concerns of mine on this issue are also allayed by the fact the prophecy says "And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church." The reason why this passage ministers comfort to my soul on this controversial issue is because it tells us the Lord knows how to effectively take care of His own business.

I remember what it felt like to read those passages and conclude that the world was moving that way, and that probably in my lifetime I would see the "complete separation of the righteous from the wicked" take place; and that of course the "righteous" were the LDS faithful and their friends (destined to be very few in numbers). Also, that only those "gentiles" who allied with the righteous remnant of the Lamanites would survive to inherit "the land of promise", i.e. America. "The calamities" of the last days were the stuff of family gatherings in my Mom's generation, and she grew weary of hearing it all the time. There was little of that in my house as I grew up. But I studied and read the BoM many times and inculcated the same mentality myself. It all "went south" along with dogmatic religions who preach exclusive favor with God. I don't see the world as "black and white" as the BoM does. There has never been a time when people split along such dogmatic lines into "the righteous and the wicked", with nary a grey demographic in between, but that's the world of the Nephites. And TBMs tend to see the contemporary world through that lens too.

The world is more nuanced and subtle and complex than the BoM prophecies that you quoted, and always has been. The evidence, at least imho, fits the paradigm I now hold, which is that every soul is his/her own unique religion, shared only by "God", and nobody requires "oracles" or "authorities" between them and their "God" in order to learn what promotes Joy and what does not: which is the core reason for existing as mortals in the first place. As you said, "God can take care of his own business", and we don't need men or women setting themselves up as special "mediators" of God's purposes, guiding the masses into camps of exclusive religious authority claims. That causes separation/division, which leads to suspicion, animosity, hatred and wars....

[CV75]

***

I don't see the world as "black and white" as the BoM does.

***

The world is more nuanced and subtle and complex than the BoM prophecies

***

As an arm of justice, some prophecies, commandments and laws are of necessity black and white; their proper execution of necessity is merciful and more nuanced. Other prophecies, commandments and laws are more nuanced, and can only be executed justly with God’s help. God helps us to understand and apply either set accordingly.

No matter how finely one slices and dices these things, he inevitably sits in his own crucible of faith, and at some point it certainly seems to him like choosing between two clearly disparate options. He himself splits off to one paradigm of belief or another, and God would have one and only one thing to do about that.

[pmccombs1]

What I find interesting is that none of the historical information now appearing to trouble people is new or freshly revealed. It's been around for decades for the most part. It's just the same old stuff re-packaged. As the preacher said in Ecclesiastes, there is "nothing new under the sun".

Let me give you an analogue from U.S. History. In colonial New England, literacy rates were close to 100% in most settled areas, and the typical farmer could read and discuss material on the level of the Federalist Papers (See John Taylor Gatto, The Underground History of American Education). This was in spite of a complete lack of developed education infrastructure and "expert" guidance in the matter. In 2003, it was estimated (According to the National Center for Education Statistics) that as much as 25% of the population of Suffolk County, Massachusetts, lacked even basic prose literacy skills. In 2009, Massachusetts spent in excess of $10,000 annually per pupil through an advanced school system staffed with thousands of experts.

What's the problem here? There is "nothing new under the sun" regarding literacy. Information on how to become literate remains readily available. Why is it more of a struggle today than it was over two hundred years ago? Might I suggest that the problem has to do more with bureaucracies that shape teaching policy and influence the development of minds than it has to do with the availability of information? When teaching is correlated, standardized, and dispensed by authorities through official pronouncements, it really doesn't matter what is available.

You need not throw your hands up in perplexity about why it is that all of this perfectly visible history seems perfectly invisible to a lot of Mormons: It has been obscured by a system modeled after another system that turns out well-schooled yet uneducated people in droves. When the school-men and those who have achieved success in business are called into high places, they assume the Lord needs their particular brand of indoctrination. Their worldly methods aren't designed to create people who think critically for themselves, but who take orders from others and who march together in lock-step. We have a school system designed to produce a work force for a mechanized, mass-production economy; why did we adopt the same thing for teaching the gospel?

That is the problem as I see it. What we lack in the upper echelon of Church hierarchy are the poor farm boys who might bring some sanity to this madness and who might finally tear down the intricate corporate facade that masquerades as church education.

[Questing Beast]

Combs, excellent....

[teddyaware]

I remember what it felt like to read those passages and conclude that the world was moving that way, and that probably in my lifetime I would see the "complete separation of the righteous from the wicked" take place; and that of course the "righteous" were the LDS faithful and their friends (destined to be very few in numbers). Also, that only those "gentiles" who allied with the righteous remnant of the Lamanites would survive to inherit "the land of promise", i.e. America. "The calamities" of the last days were the stuff of family gatherings in my Mom's generation, and she grew weary of hearing it all the time. There was little of that in my house as I grew up. But I studied and read the BoM many times and inculcated the same mentality myself. It all "went south" along with dogmatic religions who preach exclusive favor with God. I don't see the world as "black and white" as the BoM does. There has never been a time when people split along such dogmatic lines into "the righteous and the wicked", with nary a grey demographic in between, but that's the world of the Nephites. And TBMs tend to see the contemporary world through that lens too.

The world is more nuanced and subtle and complex than the BoM prophecies that you quoted, and always has been. The evidence, at least imho, fits the paradigm I now hold, which is that every soul is his/her own unique religion, shared only by "God", and nobody requires "oracles" or "authorities" between them and their "God" in order to learn what promotes Joy and what does not: which is the core reason for existing as mortals in the first place. As you said, "God can take care of his own business", and we don't need men or women setting themselves up as special "mediators" of God's purposes, guiding the masses into camps of exclusive religious authority claims. That causes separation/division, which leads to suspicion, animosity, hatred and wars....

So you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous during Enoch's day? and you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous in Noah's day? and you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous when Lot's family escaped the Lord's judgments on Sodom and Gomorrah? and you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous during the time of widespread destruction just prior to the Lord's appearance to the spared Nephites? and you don't believe there was a total separation between the wicked and the righteous when righteous Moroni witnessed the total destruction of the Nephite nation because they had fully ripened in iniquity? and you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous when righteous Ether witnessed the total destruction of the Jaredite nation as a consequence of their ripening in iniquity? and finally, you don't believe there will be a separation between the righteous and the wicked at when the Lord send His judgments upon the gathered wicked during the second coming of the Saviour? (sorry to seem so annoying, but I didn't know how else to put this)

Edited July 26, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

[why me]

I think the Church was on the right track in the 1970s with the professionalization of the Church History department and the appointment of Leonard Arrington as Church Historian. Had "Camelot" continued through the 80s and 90s, I think we'd be in better shape today.

Exposure to critical information on the Internet would not have had the same shattering impact on members who had already for decades been presented with nuanced, contextualized (yet faithful) treatments of the Church's past in official Church sources. (For a recent example of the sort of thing I have in mind, see here).

I think that you are right. The policies that were enacted during that time were not very good when we consider what was being taught and learned. However, the evolution was slow since we can still find controversial topics during the 80's and early 90's. But yes, topics became whitewashed or omitted. However this still begs the question: what would this have to do with people leaving the church? Why would this affect a testimony since these decisions were made by men and women in Salt Lake? Why would this impact the foundational story of the lds church?

[why me]

Thank you Nevo. You are a genuine god-send on this board. I appreciate your contribution.

I'm very glad to be going through my faith transition in a day and age when all information is accessible and there's a place like this board with a range of views to discuss the issues.

I can't imagine how lonely a faith crisis based on history must have been 20-30 years ago when the church was still trying to circle the wagons.

I find this all very interesting. We should realize that the four gospels are extremely faith promoting. Why? Because they were written for the early christians who needed to have a bolstering of faith. If one reads the gospels, one will not read anything that may cause doubt or trouble. Much has been omitted to accomplish this. The gospels may form a narrative that has been pieced together to form a whole. But a lot of everyday facts have been omitted. Why? We have nothing about the early Christ or his daily activities before his ministry. We don't even have a description of him. Can we depend on the gospels to give us an accurate picture of Christ when they were written for faith promotion years after the events?

Many scholars who write on the life of Christ have to dig deep into local culture and history to form a sort of life of him. But one will not find these facts in the gospel. Only faith promotion. The gospel writers knew very well that they needed a text to cement the faith of the early christians and composed a text accordingly. I think that some leaders of the modern church had the same idea: only faith promoting images and information. I do think that their hearts were in the right place.

Edited July 26, 2013 by why me

[california boy]

So you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous during Enoch's day? and you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous in Noah's day? and you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous when Lot's family escaped the Lord's judgments on Sodom and Gomorrah? and you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous during the time of widespread destruction just prior to the Lord's appearance to the spared Nephites? and you don't believe there was a total separation between the wicked and the righteous when righteous Moroni witnessed the total destruction of the Nephite nation because they had fully ripened in iniquity? and you don't believe there was a total division between the wicked and the righteous when righteous Ether witnessed the total destruction of the Jaredite nation as a consequence of their ripening in iniquity? and finally, you don't believe there will be a separation between the righteous and the wicked at when the Lord send His judgments upon the gathered wicked during the second coming of the Saviour? (sorry to seem so annoying, but I didn't know how else to put this)

I am an gay man, living with a guy that I both love and respect. We have a wonderful life together filled with kindness and respect. We give freely to those in need and spend time serving in soup kitchens that feed the poor of our city, serve as volunteers in helping to raise money for Habitat for Humanity, as well as other civic causes. While I used to be an active member of the church, I had to give all of that up because I don't fit in to the heterosexual mold that the church has tried so hard for me to fit into. I was married and had children partly because I was promised that if I did, I would somehow start to fit into that heterosexual mold the church demands. Even though I am divorced, I still make sure my wife is doing well and help her financially more than what the courts require. I support my children and I am an active participant in their lives. I support them in their activity of the church and have never spoken bad about the churches leaders or the goodness that the church offers. I could go on, but I think you understand enough about my life to answer this question.

Am I righteous or am I wicked. Am I against God? Do I fight against Christ? Are you going to put me in the camp with the wicked simly because I am gay and have chosen to live a life filled with love and companionship rather than try and fit into the current mold the church so wants me to be shoved into? Just how evil do you want to lable me?

[canard78]

I find this all very interesting. We should realize that the four gospels are extremely faith promoting. Why? Because they were written for the early christians who needed to have a bolstering of faith. If one reads the gospels, one will not read anything that may cause doubt or trouble. Much has been omitted to accomplish this. The gospels may form a narrative that has been pieced together to form a whole. But a lot of everyday facts have been omitted. Why? We have nothing about the early Christ or his daily activities before his ministry. We don't even have a description of him. Can we depend on the gospels to give us an accurate picture of Christ when they were written for faith promotion years after the events?

Many scholars who write on the life of Christ have to dig deep into local culture and history to form a sort of life of him. But one will not find these facts in the gospel. Only faith promotion. The gospel writers knew very well that they needed a text to cement the faith of the early christians and composed a text accordingly.

I think you give a good example. The New Testament is not a good history book. But it is certainly a good life-guide book.

Nowadays I feel the same about the Book of Mormon/Pearl of Great Price (including JSH) etc. It's not very accurate history. But if I read and apply the principles and stories to my life then they remain a good life-guide book.

The issue rises when people teach our 'new' scripture as accurate history as well as good theology. I got a pretty shocked reaction from my family when I said "I don't need Nephi to have had a place in history to still find value in the Book of Mormon."

I think that some leaders of the modern church had the same idea: only faith promoting images and information. I do think that their hearts were in the right place.

I agree that their hearts were/are in the right place. I don't subscribe to the idea that the church is lead by scheming manipulators. If I reached that conclusion I'd want nothing to do with the church.

I don't always agree with the conclusions of our leaders, don't feel the need to apply their every word to my life and I don't think that they are the best route to knowing God's will for me.

But I still value their contribution to the big broad understanding of who we are, why we are and what we need to do about it.

I also think the time for over-simplification and protectionism is past. We can be a little more nuanced these days.

[why me]

I think you give a good example. The New Testament is not a good history book. But it is certainly a good life-guide book.

Nowadays I feel the same about the Book of Mormon/Pearl of Great Price (including JSH) etc. It's not very accurate history. But if I read and apply the principles and stories to my life then they remain a good life-guide book.

The issue rises when people teach our 'new' scripture as accurate history as well as good theology. I got a pretty shocked reaction from my family when I said "I don't need Nephi to have had a place in history to still find value in the Book of Mormon."

The book of mormon was edited and culled by an ancient prophet---Mormon. So, much was taken out too. What was left in the book was meant to bolster faith in god and in christ. But all other points of information were left out. No different than the writers of the gospels or for that matter what was chosen to be included in the new testament. Everything was meant to bolster faith.

How strange it is that in the new testament details were left out of a personal nature about the apostles, including Paul. We know absolutely nothing about them outside the bible. Historians need to put pieces together by investigating the cultural and political norms of those times to get a more fuller picture who they may have been. I don't think that it is difficult why such personal details and how they interacted with life in general are not included.

I also think that members forget that the book of mormon is an abridgement of a much longer book.

Edited July 26, 2013 by why me

[teddyaware]

The book of mormon was edited and culled by an ancient prophet---Mormon. So, much was taken out too. What was left in the book was meant to bolster faith in god and in christ. But all other points of information were left out. No different than the writers of the gospels or for that matter what was chosen to be included in the new testament. Everything was meant to bolster faith.

How strange it is that in the new testament details were left out of a personal nature about the apostles, including Paul. We know absolutely nothing about them outside the bible. Historians need to put pieces together by investigating the cultural and political norms of those times to get a more fuller picture who they may have been. I don't think that it is difficult why such personal details and how they interacted with life in general are not included.

I also think that members forget that the book of mormon is an abridgement of a much longer book.

Tremendous insight! Bullseye!

[teddyaware]

I am an gay man, living with a guy that I both love and respect. We have a wonderful life together filled with kindness and respect. We give freely to those in need and spend time serving in soup kitchens that feed the poor of our city, serve as volunteers in helping to raise money for Habitat for Humanity, as well as other civic causes. While I used to be an active member of the church, I had to give all of that up because I don't fit in to the heterosexual mold that the church has tried so hard for me to fit into. I was married and had children partly because I was promised that if I did, I would somehow start to fit into that heterosexual mold the church demands. Even though I am divorced, I still make sure my wife is doing well and help her financially more than what the courts require. I support my children and I am an active participant in their lives. I support them in their activity of the church and have never spoken bad about the churches leaders or the goodness that the church offers. I could go on, but I think you understand enough about my life to answer this question.

Am I righteous or am I wicked. Am I against God? Do I fight against Christ? Are you going to put me in the camp with the wicked simly because I am gay and have chosen to live a life filled with love and companionship rather than try and fit into the current mold the church so wants me to be shoved into? Just how evil do you want to lable me?

You certainly read more into what I wrote than what I was intending to convey. Reading your response causes me to wonder if there are times when the spirit of man cries out to be heard in spite of what the natural man is thinking.

As to your question, I will not stand in judgment of you or even take a tentative jab at it. The God of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints loves you with a love that is infinite and eternal; the depth of that love is far beyond the comprehension of the mind of man. I'm sure He has good things in store for you. After all, the Saviour has taught us that in His Father's house there are many mansions, a realm of glory in the hereafter perfectly suited to each one of His children's own unique character, personality, spirituality and needs.

Edited July 26, 2013 by teddyaware

[canard78]

Your post is appreciated and I agree with you. My point is that I personally trust the wisdom, discernment, judgment and strategic timing of the Lord and His chosen leaders more than do some second guessing critics of the Church leaders who post on this board.

The prophecies are clear, the Lord and His people are going to win and the enemies of the Restored Kingdom of God are going to lose in a very big way. That tells me the Lord and the leaders of the Church are going to do just fine. All this lack of faith in and constant criticism of the living Apostles and Prophets of the Lord's Church begins to smack of incipient apostasy.

Why should not these naysayers and ark steadiers take a leap of faith and make a conscious effort to supplant the negative and faithless attitudes that generate all this criticism and second guessing with a positive attitude of faith and trust in the Lord that He knows how to chose His own earthly leaders and how to successfully guide them in the paths of wisdom.

True to form, when all else fails, the 'arc steadier' card is guaranteed to win the day.

But don't overuse your ace. We naysayers might become immune to it.

[canard78]

I am an gay man, living with a guy that I both love and respect. We have a wonderful life together filled with kindness and respect. We give freely to those in need and spend time serving in soup kitchens that feed the poor of our city, serve as volunteers in helping to raise money for Habitat for Humanity, as well as other civic causes. While I used to be an active member of the church, I had to give all of that up because I don't fit in to the heterosexual mold that the church has tried so hard for me to fit into. I was married and had children partly because I was promised that if I did, I would somehow start to fit into that heterosexual mold the church demands. Even though I am divorced, I still make sure my wife is doing well and help her financially more than what the courts require. I support my children and I am an active participant in their lives. I support them in their activity of the church and have never spoken bad about the churches leaders or the goodness that the church offers. I could go on, but I think you understand enough about my life to answer this question.

Am I righteous or am I wicked. Am I against God? Do I fight against Christ? Are you going to put me in the camp with the wicked simly because I am gay and have chosen to live a life filled with love and companionship rather than try and fit into the current mold the church so wants me to be shoved into? Just how evil do you want to lable me?

You certainly read more into what I wrote than what I was intending to convey. Reading your response causes me to wonder if there are times when the spirit of man cries out to be heard in spite of what the natural man is thinking.

As to your question, I will not stand in judgment of you or even take a tentative jab at it. The God of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints loves you with a love that is infinite and eternal; the depth of that love is far beyond the comprehension of the mind of man. I'm sure He has good things in store for you. After all, the Saviour has taught us that in His Father's house there are many mansions, a realm of glory in the hereafter perfectly suited to each one of His children's own unique character, personality, spirituality and needs.

I've read Matthew 25, one of Christ's final parables in mortality and from that it's clear that yes, based on what you describe, you will most likely be found among the righteous on the right hand of God.

Matthew 25 teaches that when the the son of man returns in his glory he will gather "all nations" before him. The righteous will be welcomed into "life eternal" to "inherit the kingdom prepared" for them.

What important qualification will they meet? What outstanding obedience to commandments will they have shown? Simply this:

Fed the hungry

Gave drink to the thirsty

Took in the stranger

Clothed the naked

Visited the sick and imprisoned

The service and kindness you describe is your service and devotion to God because, "inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."