Prophets Saw Our Day

[ERMD]

Not seeing anything in what he says that would disagree with you...have I missed your point?

You have.

[CV75]

how gay marriage doesn't work as part of the plan

Given a glorified, perfected body which is independent above all other creatures (ie unaided by any external or artificial means), a) single human gametes cannot self-fertilize into zygotes; b) human gametes of the same sex cannot be introduced from one body into the other to fertilize each other.

[ERMD]

Then I could say that your misrepresentation of what I said suggests that you have missed the point of life itself.

But I won't suggest that because I accept that what God uses to get the best out of you and what he uses to get the best out of me are different. But apparently you don't. You seem to presume that the lens through which you see through darkly should be the one we all see through.

It's one of the most negative side effects of absolutist faith positions. The belief that just because you are unequivocally convinced that you are standing in the right place and that all other places would be wrong for you makes you assume that where I am standing is wrong.

I'm learning to shrug that off though. There are lots of absolutists in Mormonism and given I like Mormonism I accept absolutism as one of the warts on an otherwise beautiful face.

No ellipses, no chestnuts, no rearranging of words. Hard to see how a direct quote is a misrepresentation.

None of your views on gay marriage are represented in the scriptures, in the temple, or in writings or the words of modern-day prophets, so I am on firm ground here.

Continue to hold on to your hope that they are wrong, mistaken, misinformed, or "absolutists". Good luck with that.

[ERMD]

I'm not trying to change the subject. Merely illustrating how times and attitudes and even application of doctrine changes.

You haven't demonstrated how gay marriage doesn't work as part of the plan. There is usually at least one or two gay marriage threads running in the forum and my perspectives are in them. I'm not sure this needs to turn into another one.

I have. Read it again. You introduced it in this thread, not I.

[Stone holm]

Most revelation throughout history has come in response to a question. Not simply by sitting with mind closed and palms open waiting for the "light and knowledge" to be poured into it.

100 years ago a prophet was saying that inter-race relationships was an abomination. How did that turn out?

It turned out rather badly, but there is a difference. Inter-race relationships between and a man and a woman are not inconsistent with a core teaching of the Church namely, Eternal Increase -- as far as Exalted Couples go -- SSM is inconsistent.

[canard78]

No ellipses, no chestnuts, no rearranging of words. Hard to see how a direct quote is a misrepresentation.

None of your views on gay marriage are represented in the scriptures, in the temple, or in writings or the words of modern-day prophets, so I am on firm ground here.

Continue to hold on to your hope that they are wrong, mistaken, misinformed, or "absolutists". Good luck with that.

Your misrepresentation was your own words: "This relegates them to a superficial code of conduct." I've done nothing to relegate them to anything superficial. You made that presumption and interpretation.

[ERMD]

Your misrepresentation was your own words: "This relegates them to a superficial code of conduct." I've done nothing to relegate them to anything superficial. You made that presumption and interpretation.

Be kind enough then, to provide an accurate interpretation of, "Besides, the purpose of making and keeping covenants is to create commitments and principles for living. These create actions, leading to habits, building character."

Most would view temple covenants in a different light.

[rockpond]

Continue to hold on to your hope that they are wrong, mistaken, misinformed, or "absolutists". Good luck with that.

I'm told frequently that many members of the church "hoped and prayed" for the day when those of African descent would be granted the priesthood and allowed to be sealed in the temple despite doctrine having been taught (in decades past) that they were not worthy of such.

I see nothing wrong with members today holding out hope that homosexuals will one day be granted the opportunity to also be sealed in the temple to their same gender spouses despite the current teachings to the contrary.

And, as I've stated before, my belief is that until we -- as the body of Christ -- reach a point of significant epistemic humility on this subject we won't receive revelation one way or the other. In other words, as long as we are convinced that we already know the answer, we probably won't receive it from On High.

[ERMD]

I'm told frequently that many members of the church "hoped and prayed" for the day when those of African descent would be granted the priesthood and allowed to be sealed in the temple despite doctrine having been taught (in decades past) that they were not worthy of such.

I see nothing wrong with members today holding out hope that homosexuals will one day be granted the opportunity to also be sealed in the temple to their same gender spouses despite the current teachings to the contrary.

And, as I've stated before, my belief is that until we -- as the body of Christ -- reach a point of significant epistemic humility on this subject we won't receive revelation one way or the other. In other words, as long as we are convinced that we already know the answer, we probably won't receive it from On High.

In the temple, we are to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve. "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."

God is The Father.

Eternal increase the purpose of the Plan.

Gay marriage or "sealing" cannot be reconciled with these eternal principles and doctrines.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Edited August 3, 2013 by ERMD

[canard78]

Be kind enough then, to provide an accurate interpretation of, "Besides, the purpose of making and keeping covenants is to create commitments and principles for living. These create actions, leading to habits, building character."

Most would view temple covenants in a different light.

This is quite a long answer, and some of it quite personal. It's something I'm working on as a separate piece of personal writing and will try to share parts back here as they form.

Please rest assured that I don't take the endowment lightly. I consider it the pinnacle of my worship. I also consider it one of the most important things that God has given us to help us become Christlike and assist on the to godliness.

Most of my perspectives on the endowment were reached while worshiping in the temple and also have some scriptural base. I believe they are inspired. But for me. I don't presume that a symbolic ordinance will be understood in the same way by every participant. I think it's intentionally so. I don't presume that my understanding is the last word nor one that applies to all. But I do feel that it is a God-given understanding.

...................................................

(My speculation about the hypothetical options for gay marriage in Mormonism (possibly similar to the 'for time only' sealings that are already done between certain heterosexual couples) is not based on or inspired by my perspectives on the endowment. I recognise that in current Mormon theology there are limited options for any change).

[Calm]

You have.

Please enlighten me then (meant seriously, I value your opinion).

[Calm]

Be kind enough then, to provide an accurate interpretation of, "Besides, the purpose of making and keeping covenants is to create commitments and principles for living. These create actions, leading to habits, building character."

Most would view temple covenants in a different light.

I agree that they do all these things...because they are meant to bring us face to face with God and since God's purpose is to help us come to him and we must be purified to do so...of course covenants and ordinances will have the result of making better people....at least that is how I understood what canard meant...he can correct me if I am wrong and you can tell me why seeing it that way is problematic and superficial.

[canard78]

I agree that they do all these things...because they are meant to bring us face to face with God and since God's purpose is to help us come to him and we must be purified to do so...of course covenants and ordinances will have the result of making better people....at least that is how I understood what canard meant...he can correct me if I am wrong and you can tell me why seeing it that way is problematic and superficial.

I think that's a fair comment on what I meant.

The scriptures teach us that the only things we take with us is what we know and who we have become. I see the temple endowment as a very effective way of God giving us a tool for 'becoming' not just promising.

This is both because of what it teaches me about who I am and because I make certain promises to him to keep certain behaviours.

Ezra Taft Benson

"...our Father in Heaven has ordained certain holy sanctuaries, called temples, in which these laws may be fully explained, the laws include the law of obedience and sacrifice, the law of the gospel, the law of chastity, and the law of consecration."

http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=85

In the temple I can learn what behaviour to model to "become" and I also learn why and to what end. It's the making and keeping of covenants that makes us who we are. That's what we take with us. If I make but don't keep those covenants then it will have no impact on me because there's no change in behaviour and therefore no change in character. I use character as a short hand for Christlike attributes and becoming more like God.

The 'doing' is only an enabler for "being."

[Calm]

This is both because of what it teaches me about who I am and because I make certain promises to him to keep certain behaviours.

The Temple teaches us the three greatest mysteries: who I am, who God is and who is my mother, father, brother, sister, wife, child...in all the extended family of God that fills the whole earth. And then it tells us what all this could be....and makes promises about such that we can hold on to in trust, hope, faith and charity.

[ERMD]

I agree that they do all these things...because they are meant to bring us face to face with God and since God's purpose is to help us come to him and we must be purified to do so...of course covenants and ordinances will have the result of making better people....at least that is how I understood what canard meant...he can correct me if I am wrong and you can tell me why seeing it that way is problematic and superficial.

The behavioral aspects of any covenant, temple or otherwise, are the mere beginning. To summarize them in terms of a code of conduct, without mention of the much deeper significance and true power of the covenants and ordinances found in the temple, is analagous to comparing the Gospel of Christ to the Law of Moses. Echoes of this significance are found throughout the scriptures, and of course, in the temple ordinances and covenants themselves.

I would suspect and hope that canard sees this. He however, made a very specific statement declaring the purpose of covenants, quoted by me twice, and when given opportunities to amend it, has declined to do so.

[Stone holm]

The Temple teaches us the three greatest mysteries: who I am, who God is and who is my mother, father, brother, sister, wife, child...in all the extended family of God that fills the whole earth. And then it tells us what all this could be....and makes promises about such that we can hold on to in trust, hope, faith and charity.

Really? I must have missed the part about my mother, I do tend to doze off.

[canard78]

The behavioral aspects of any covenant, temple or otherwise, are the mere beginning. To summarize them in terms of a code of conduct, without mention of the much deeper significance and true power of the covenants and ordinances found in the temple, is analagous to comparing the Gospel of Christ to the Law of Moses. Echoes of this significance are found throughout the scriptures, and of course, in the temple ordinances and covenants themselves.

I would suspect and hope that canard sees this. He however, made a very specific statement declaring the purpose of covenants, quoted by me twice, and when given opportunities to amend it, has declined to do so.

I have indeed declined to do so because I stand by what I've said. But what I continue to refute is your interpretation of it. I am not talking of a trivial "code of conduct" and I am not reducing it to a "Law of Moses" laundry list. I'm talking about a ceremony that gives me an platform for understanding the nature of God and a the tools to continue on the path to godliness.

Jesus taught in parables and, as Elder Packer said, the endowment is taught in a similar way. Parables intentionally have layers of meaning. Some are only on the surface for those at the beginning of the journey. Others are deeper and only found on further study and investigation. Lets say for a moment that I'm only just at the surface of understanding but as I find meaning in the 'parable' am encouraged to keep engaging with it until I get to the next layer. If someone swats my (perhaps currently limited) perspective and says "no, your wrong" is that going to encourage me to keep digging for further understanding?

If my comments earlier gave the impression that I was saying "the only purpose of an endowment is to get a check list of good habits and nothing else" then I apologise, I'm not saying that. But I do believe that, in my current understanding, that the principles taught in the endowment are part of the process of God instructing me in a way that leads me to being "more godly."

[ERMD]

Part of the process, yes. Your previous statement was so limiting to the reality of the covenants and the endowment that to let it pass as a statement of fact would have been irresponsible; and it was presented as a statement of fact.

As alluded to earlier, we can "do" without "be", but we cannot "be" without "do."

[rockpond]

In the temple, we are to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve. "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."

God is The Father.

Eternal increase the purpose of the Plan.

Gay marriage or "sealing" cannot be reconciled with these eternal principles and doctrines.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

You didn't need to do that but I appreciate you illustrating my point. As long as we believe that we know and fully understand God's will on a particular subject, we are not likely to actually receive his will through prophetic revelation.

[canard78]

You didn't need to do that but I appreciate you illustrating my point. As long as we believe that we know and fully understand God's will on a particular subject, we are not likely to actually receive his will through prophetic revelation.

I recently found a wonderful quote from the progressive Hugh B. Brown; the apostle who advocated riscinding the ban on black priesthood in the 1960s said:

“We have been blessed with much knowledge by revelation from God which, in some part, the world lacks. But there is an incomprehensibly greater part of truth which we must yet discover. Our revealed truth should leave us stricken with the knowledge of how little we really know. It should never lead to an emotional arrogance based upon a false assumption that we somehow have all the answers–that we in fact have a corner on truth, for we do not.”

Hugh B. Brown, “An Eternal Quest – Freedom of the Mind,” speech given to the BYU student body on May 13, 1969

http://president.byu.edu/documents/brown.htm

[Questing Beast]

... As long as we believe that we know and fully understand God's will on a particular subject, we are not likely to actually receive his will through prophetic revelation.

What if what we are "knowing and fully understanding" is revealed by "God"? Then I can state with confidence that "I know God's will"....

[rockpond]

What if what we are "knowing and fully understanding" is revealed by "God"? Then I can state with confidence that "I know God's will"....

I believe so.

[ERMD]

You didn't need to do that but I appreciate you illustrating my point. As long as we believe that we know and fully understand God's will on a particular subject, we are not likely to actually receive his will through prophetic revelation.

The First Presidency and the Twelve have made it abundantly clear that we know and fully understand God's will on this particular subject. This is what Elder Bednar said in April 2013 Conference:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a single, undeviating standard of sexual morality: intimate relations are proper only between a man and a woman in the marriage relationship prescribed in God’s plan."

There are multiple other examples. Pursuing another agenda is not "tolerance", "acceptance", or "open-minded". It is rebellion. This is not to say that anyone is to be loved any less or to be treated with any degree of disrepect. All however are subject to this single, undeviating standard.

It would be most enlightening to read teachings to the contrary on this subject. One can hypothesize, hope, speculate, wish, or imagine that someday, somehow this doctrine may change, but given that it is inextricably linked to the plan and that all published official statements on it by the Church and its leaders are completely consistent, such efforts are founded on sandy soil.

It is a common tactic of those who oppose the Church and its teachings to selectively mine quotes given by leaders at some time in the past in an attempt to illustrate their point or to show a perceived problem on inconsistency. (This is not an insinuation that canard is opposed to the Church, just pointing out the tactic.)

Where saving ordinances and doctrine are concerned, the Prophets and Apostles will be clarion clear and in full agreement. This is most certainly the case with SSA and gay marriage.

[Questing Beast]

...

Where saving ordinances and doctrine are concerned, the Prophets and Apostles will be clarion clear and in full agreement. This is most certainly the case with SSA and gay marriage.

I agree that anyone entertaining the notion that the Church has been or is becoming indistinct, confused or lenient/tolerant on the subject of SSA and the social implications, is bound to be disappointed in their hopes for "change". To change and adopt a SSA equality with heterosexual attraction would unhinge all that has been firmly held as doctrine on the purpose of life. "Slippery slope" doesn't begin to define the effect of such a hypothetical future switch to include SSA as valid in the hereafter, therefore here as well.... Edited August 5, 2013 by Questing Beast

[rockpond]

I agree that anyone entertaining the notion that the Church has been or is becoming indistinct, confused or lenient/tolerant on the subject of SSA and the social implications, is bound to be disappointed in their hopes for "change". To change and adopt a SSA equality with heterosexual attraction would unhinge all that has been firmly held as doctrine on the purpose of life. "Slippery slope" doesn't begin to define the effect of such a hypothetical future switch to include SSA as valid in the hereafter, therefore here as well....

I don't see where anything really becomes "unhinged".