Sky Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) New York Times article...http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=allOh joy...Edited to add: with all these new missionaries and temples, Satan is putting on his a-game... Edited July 21, 2013 by Sky 1
Sky Posted July 21, 2013 Author Posted July 21, 2013 I believe he is, yes. And I have no qualms about saying it. 1
teddyaware Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) New York Times article...http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=allOh joy...Edited to add: with all these new missionaries and temples, Satan is upping the ante...This sort of negative publicity will continue and intensify as the prophesied tribulations of the last days continue to unfold leading up to the coming of the Lord. The testimonies of the saints will be tested and probed for areas of weakness, like trees tossed to and fro in the tempest. The saints who rely on the Spirit and not on the arm of flesh will eventually triumph over the seemingly strong assaults of confutation carried out by the adversary and his witting and unwitting earthly servants.But remember, it's the Lord Himself who allows this opposition and testing to take place, and this that the testimonies of the Lord's people might be refined and purified as gold ore in the refiner's fire.Well did Lehi and Nephi describe the active agent of this testing as an "exceedingly great mist of darkness" that causes those of weak and malnourished faith to release their grip of safety on the iron rod that leads to peace, happines and security.And again, how well these two prophets describe the derision and gleeful mocking of the worldly wise who inhabit that strange "large and spacious building," the same mocking that causes even those who have obtained the very fruit of the tree of life to turn away in misplaced shame to abandon the very source of light and life that once filled their souls with exceedingly great joy. And so we read of the prophecies of a great prophet and faithful son, who saw our day, along with its mighty storms of strong contradiction and sharp polemical shafts in the whirlwind:"21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost." Posters who preach hellfire and damnation instead of discussing the article will be removed.Is quoting from the Book of Mormon preaching hellfire and damnation? If so, I will cease and desist that I might continue to participate. Edited July 21, 2013 by teddyaware
Popular Post Nevo Posted July 21, 2013 Popular Post Posted July 21, 2013 I thought the article was pretty good. The writer clearly did her homework—which is more than can be said for a lot of journalists who write about Mormons. And it was interesting to learn more about Elder Mattsson. It sounds like he's still disaffected, though, which is too bad. I wish him and his wife well. 6
Duncan Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) Elder Mattsson wasn't over the Church in Europe, as an AA70 he is one of several, I can think of many others in Europe or from there, Stephen Kerr, Erich Kopiscke, Craig Wright, Elder R. Ingvar Olsson is also from Sweden. The AA70's would report to the three General Authority area presidency who reports to a member of the Twelve who obviously reports to the 1st Presidency. Edited July 21, 2013 by Duncan 1
omni Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 Hmmm...very interesting. Does this have anything to do with Palmer? I know he claims he was meeting with a current member of the seventy who was supposed to come out in July, but if memory serves me correct he was also meeting with another leader who was not a GA. Could this be him? What in the world do you think this document was that the unnamed apostle was allegedly supposed to show the members in Sweden and why didn't he (according to Mattson) end up showing them?
Duncan Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 Hmmm...very interesting. Does this have anything to do with Palmer? I know he claims he was meeting with a current member of the seventy who was supposed to come out in July, but if memory serves me correct he was also meeting with another leader who was not a GA. Could this be him? What in the world do you think this document was that the unnamed apostle was allegedly supposed to show the members in Sweden and why didn't he (according to Mattson) end up showing them?sounds like a Palmer tactic, he and only he knows about something that sounds juicy but isn't telling anyone, like everything else, I await and see
halconero Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) One remark from the article that I felt needed clarification was the comment about the number of exmembers who have held leadership positions. I don't think the author was trying to be malicious but I feel that someone could easily see "leadership" and think that they were talking about the lds equivalent of pastors or theologians. If you're an active member you will most likely participate in some sort of high council, presidency, bishopric, committee and all the other facets that make up leadership in the LDS church.I mean, I served in leadership assignments as a missionary and have been in an Elders' Quorum presidency before but I'm an average member. If I left I could easily count myself as one of the disaffected members who have held leadership positions in the church. Edited July 21, 2013 by halconero 3
MichelleD Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 Hmmm...very interesting. Does this have anything to do with Palmer? I know he claims he was meeting with a current member of the seventy who was supposed to come out in July, but if memory serves me correct he was also meeting with another leader who was not a GA. Could this be him? What in the world do you think this document was that the unnamed apostle was allegedly supposed to show the members in Sweden and why didn't he (according to Mattson) end up showing them?The article does name L. Tom Perry as to who this authority most likely was. But I don't know if this has been confirmed.I also wondered if this was the 70 that Dehlin, Palmer and Tom Phillips were recently quoting and have said he'd be going public in July.Mattson just did a podcast with Dehlin on Mormon Stories too. I find the article to be interesting and there's no doubt the church needs to address this. I believe the leaders are trying to have more open discussions. I hope this will help. 1
Erin15 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 The article says: "Around the world and in the United States, where the faith was founded, the Mormon Church is grappling with a wave of doubt and disillusionment among members..."Everything I have seen indicates the opposite. The church is spreading faster than it has in the past. Retention rates are better, attendance rates are better, the quality of missionaries is better.Where is this crisis? I don't see it. I think the NYT is misreading a small online minority that is not reflective of the whole.
Storm Rider Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 In the life of any disciple of Christ there is doubt. There is no "document", no answer to all questions or that will heal all doubts for all time. We worship a Savior who's apostles abandoned him. We have scripture that talks about his people massacring other people, incest, concubines without number, and perpetrated all manner of atrocities...and these are by his covenant people. Our Father in Heaven seems more accustomed to take weak things and make them strong than to take strong things and make them even stronger. Doubt will exist in the lives of all followers of Christ because we are human. The challenge for each disciple is to deal with doubt while focused on moving forward in faith. 3
MichelleD Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 The article says: "Around the world and in the United States, where the faith was founded, the Mormon Church is grappling with a wave of doubt and disillusionment among members..."Everything I have seen indicates the opposite. The church is spreading faster than it has in the past. Retention rates are better, attendance rates are better, the quality of missionaries is better.Where is this crisis? I don't see it. I think the NYT is misreading a small online minority that is not reflective of the whole.Where have you gotten your statistics? (Regarding attendance, baptism and retention rates?)I've recently heard the opposite (from my current Stake President....so he may only be going on local numbers). But he said retention and activity percentages are going down.I'd love a reference from you so I can give it to him next time I speak to him. Thanks! 1
Popular Post readstoomuch Posted July 21, 2013 Popular Post Posted July 21, 2013 For many the church goes on with no problem. Thoughtful people, including my son and his wife, in that 18-30 age group are struggling. Part secular, part glossing over topics has caused them to question and research. The message of just leaving the questions alone can give the impression that things are being hidden. We need more honest manuals, better written and that address the issues. People will pray and get back to the scriptures, but you have to get them off the ledge first. 7
Stroopwafel Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 What I personally found puzzling (and a bit uncanny), is when I realized that, on the one hand, we are encouraged to seek truth, say/proclaim it and "let the consequence follow", prove the Lord, etc., and on the other hand, this whole faith-crisis thing stems, at least partly, from when the very desire for truth fostered by the Church (and most religions for that matter) seems to be hitting walls with the same. Although I know I am speaking for myself and that faith-crises may have different underlying "forces" for different people, I'm pretty sure many who experience one will agree on what I'm saying (if it is explained correctly enough).In a sense, the Church is its own worst enemy in that it encourages people to seek what itself has a hard time living up to and struggle to find how it should go about it (while simply being straightforward would already be a good start). 1
canard78 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 New York Times article...http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=allOh joy...Edited to add: with all these new missionaries and temples, Satan is putting on his a-game... Because for the last 6,000 years he's only been bringing his 'B game?'Does Satan have to 'pace himself.' 2
canard78 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 The article says: "Around the world and in the United States, where the faith was founded, the Mormon Church is grappling with a wave of doubt and disillusionment among members..."Everything I have seen indicates the opposite. The church is spreading faster than it has in the past. Retention rates are better, attendance rates are better, the quality of missionaries is better. Where is this crisis? I don't see it. I think the NYT is misreading a small online minority that is not reflective of the whole.CFR for the bold part. Since Pres Hinkley called on us to double the number of baptisms in 1999 the number has dropped by about 10% per year. Number of congregations have grown very little but members per congregation is growing (suggesting increased inactivity or at least a need to consolidate). Elder Jensen says "maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now; largely over these issues."If you've some data you can share that shows otherwise I'll happily consider it. 3
canard78 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) This sort of negative publicity will continue and intensify as the prophesied tribulations of the last days continue to unfold leading up to the coming of the Lord. The testimonies of the saints will be tested and probed for areas of weakness, like trees tossed to and fro in the tempest. The saints who rely on the Spirit and not on the arm of flesh will eventually triumph over the seemingly strong assaults of confutation carried out by the adversary and his witting and unwitting earthly servants.But remember, it's the Lord Himself who allows this opposition and testing to take place, and this that the testimonies of the Lord's people might be refined and purified as gold ore in the refiner's fire.I had to smile a little that the two 'deal-breakers' mentioned:But when he discovered credible evidence that the church’s founder, Joseph Smith, was a polygamist and that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures were rife with historical anomalies, Mr. Mattsson said he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble.Of all the things that could have been mentioned, we got off fairly lightly. Polygamy was and still is a doctrine in our canon, introduced by Joseph Smith. That this would be a shock to a GA is a good example of the fact that many people are simply unaware of our history. Polygamy's not even one of the "hidden" bits:http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRDHaving said that, the article goes on to mention then detail that the church doesn't (polyandry/teens). Edited July 21, 2013 by canard78
Duncan Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 The article does name L. Tom Perry as to who this authority most likely was. But I don't know if this has been confirmed.I also wondered if this was the 70 that Dehlin, Palmer and Tom Phillips were recently quoting and have said he'd be going public in July.Mattson just did a podcast with Dehlin on Mormon Stories too. I find the article to be interesting and there's no doubt the church needs to address this. I believe the leaders are trying to have more open discussions. I hope this will help.no offense but if bro. Mattsson is the guy that Palmer is ramping up then consider me even more seriously less impressed with Palmer. Didn't Palmer say he was an active member of the 1st Quorum of the 70? Mattson doesn't qualify then and Palmer would need to get his facts straight yet again
canard78 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 The article does name L. Tom Perry as to who this authority most likely was. But I don't know if this has been confirmed.I also wondered if this was the 70 that Dehlin, Palmer and Tom Phillips were recently quoting and have said he'd be going public in July.Mattson just did a podcast with Dehlin on Mormon Stories too. I find the article to be interesting and there's no doubt the church needs to address this. I believe the leaders are trying to have more open discussions. I hope this will help.So is this Mormon Stories or NYT's "exclusive"
canard78 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 I believe he is, yes. And I have no qualms about saying it.The church's response is a slightly more tactful approach:Eric Hawkins, a church spokesman, said that “every church faces this challenge,” adding, “The answer is not to try to silence critics, but to provide as much information and as much support as possible to those who may be affected.” I'd have been impressed if he went with your response though 1
Brian 2.0 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 Everything I have seen indicates the opposite. The church is spreading faster than it has in the past. Retention rates are better, attendance rates are better, the quality of missionaries is better.+1 on the CFR on this. 1
Tacenda Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 What I personally found puzzling (and a bit uncanny), is when I realized that, on the one hand, we are encouraged to seek truth, say/proclaim it and "let the consequence follow", prove the Lord, etc., and on the other hand, this whole faith-crisis thing stems, at least partly, from when the very desire for truth fostered by the Church (and most religions for that matter) seems to be hitting walls with the same. Although I know I am speaking for myself and that faith-crises may have different underlying "forces" for different people, I'm pretty sure many who experience one will agree on what I'm saying (if it is explained correctly enough).In a sense, the Church is its own worst enemy in that it encourages people to seek what itself has a hard time living up to and struggle to find how it should go about it (while simply being straightforward would already be a good start).I agree and think the mentality that it's wrong to speak of unsavory church history is what seeds an anti-mormon. They have felt the brunt of wanting truth open and aired out. They have lost relationships because of the skeletons in the closet and their lives have been altered enough to hurt their psyche. It is a feeling that they're not part of the groupthink and an outsider. It puts a wedge in lives that can't normally function with the elephant in the room. If the truth is told they are the bad guy or the testimony bulldozer. Until it's laid out for future generations then the hurt just gets infected more and family breakups will occur. If it's true that the church is about family they'll (church leaders) will see the light or the revelation in all of this. Or is God even aware? Maybe that's another reason to nip this in the bud. People are losing their testimonies of both God and the church.
ALarson Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 +1 on the CFR on this. Erin, I'm now the THIRD person to ask for a CFR on you stating: "The church is spreading faster than it has in the past. Retention rates are better, attendance rates are better, the quality of missionaries is better." That is certainly not the case in my area. Attendance is way down, wards are being dissolved (we just recently had 3 wards made back into 2 wards....several of them....and have gone from 2 large stakes back down to recombining it into 1 stake), we have not had a baptism in our ward for over a year. I live in the mission field but in an active area of the church too. I would love it if you were correct, but I have not seen any statistics to support what you stated. There are more missionaries going out though and time will tell if that will mean a surge in baptisms. 2
pmccombs1 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 Where is this crisis? I don't see it. I think the NYT is misreading a small online minority that is not reflective of the whole.I don't have statistics for the Church, but I know that the various wards I have been in have had close to 50% activity rate. My current ward stands at 44%. More than half of our members are either disaffected in some degree, unable to attend for health or work reasons, or just don't care. In a recent Ward Council, our high councilman asked if we had heard of "Real Growth," and said that we would hear more of it in the near future. At least at the Stake level, the brethren are concerned that our "amazing" growth numbers don't reflect actual activity and growth. We tend to baptize people, they proceed to leave the church in some form, and we still count them as Growth. We've had only a couple of families request name removal over the past year or so; most people leave and are still counted. So, I don't know if there is a general crisis, but from where I stand, it appears that there is.
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