Ancient Horse Dna From Canadian Yukon Sequenced

[cinepro]

She must be Mormon.

Every Mother's Day, our ward takes a few minutes after Sacrament Meeting to hand out flowers to the women in the ward. Then we take a few more minutes to have an awards-type handout where women get extra flowers for special achievements, such as the woman with the most kids under age 5, the woman with the most kids who served missions etc.

One award is for the woman with the most kids. There are two women in our ward with >10 kids, but as my wife likes to roll her eyes and point out, they only have 10 kids because they both made "choices" in their lives that ended their first marriages and then led to them marrying another man with more kids. So we're handing them extra flowers because they made those choices earlier in their lives.

I just tell her it's a good thing we don't have a Laurel winning "youngest mother".

[thesometimesaint]

PreColumbian horses existed, but the question is did they exist at the time referenced in the B of M.

Ancient Troy existed, but we had precious little evidence for it, other than what was claimed in a book.

Possibly. Though probably not in great numbers. Moreover lots depends on where the main events of the BoM occurred. Going on the assumption that they occurred in Mesoamerica it is entirely possible that tiny pockets of horses did survive until the Nephites time frames. Given the climatic conditions of central America I'm not hopeful the bones will be found. But almost anything is possible.

Edited June 28, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Gervin]

Ancient Troy existed, but we had precious little evidence for it, other than what was claimed in a book.

Possibly. Though probably not in great numbers. Moreover lots depends on where the main events of the BoM occurred. Going on the assumption that they occurred in Mesoamerica it is entirely possible that tiny pockets of horses did survive until the Nephites time frames. Given the climatic conditions of central America I'm not hopeful the bones will be found. But almost anything is possible.

I'm almost certain, based on artwork and depictions of Mesoamerican populations, that they inhabitant's clothes did not have pockets.

[thesometimesaint]

I'm almost certain, based on artwork and depictions of Mesoamerican populations, that they inhabitant's clothes did not have pockets.

Pockets are useful, but hardly a necessary element of clothing. Same with horses useful, but not necessary.

[ERayR]

I'm almost certain, based on artwork and depictions of Mesoamerican populations, that they inhabitant's clothes did not have pockets.

You have to be careful basing anything on artwork it can be deceptive.

[cdowis]

Some of my observations and conclusions on horses in the BOM:

1. There is no evidence that horses were an important source of transportation -- probably only used by very wealthy or influential individuals.

2. There is evidence that they were a source for food -- the Nephites ate them.

3. No evidence of their use in war, no horseback riding but used to pull chariots.

4. It is very likely that the horse went extinct before the conclusion of the BOM. In Mesoamerica, at least, they were already gone when Columbus arrived.

Edited June 28, 2013 by cdowis

[Gervin]

Some of my observations and conclusions on horses in the BOM:

1. There is no evidence that horses were an important source of transportation -- probably only used by very wealthy or influential individuals.

2. There is evidence that they were a source for food -- the Nephites ate them.

3. No evidence of their use in war, no horseback riding but used to pull chariots.

4. It is very likely that the horse went extinct before the conclusion of the BOM. In Mesoamerica, at least, they were already gone when Columbus arrived.

Some of my observations and conclusions about horses in the BoM:

1. There is no evidence for the existence of horses in BoM times, if it assumed that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica.
   

[Gervin]

You have to be careful basing anything on artwork it can be deceptive.

"art is a lie that leads to the truth" (or something like that) - Picasso

or better yet, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe." - Magritte

Edited June 28, 2013 by Gervin

[thesometimesaint]

Some of my observations and conclusions about horses in the BoM:

1. There is no evidence for the existence of horses in BoM times, if it assumed that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica.
   

Except in the BoM. Excluding the possibility of horses is about as rational as excluding Homers' tales as a reason to exclude Troy. Also keep in mind that there was no evidence for the horse culture on the Steps of Central Europe until a few years ago.

[Gervin]

Except in the BoM. Excluding the possibility of horses is about as rational as excluding Homers' tales as a reason to exclude Troy. Also keep in mind that there was no evidence for the horse culture on the Steps of Central Europe until a few years ago.

Do you mean Eurasian Steppes? What is the source for that statement?

[Ron Beron]

Ancient Troy existed, but we had precious little evidence for it, other than what was claimed in a book.

Possibly. Though probably not in great numbers. Moreover lots depends on where the main events of the BoM occurred. Going on the assumption that they occurred in Mesoamerica it is entirely possible that tiny pockets of horses did survive until the Nephites time frames. Given the climatic conditions of central America I'm not hopeful the bones will be found. But almost anything is possible.

Not so. While Ilion or Troas is the Greek rendition of the city's name it went by other names on the historical record. Names that Schliemann wouldn't have known. The Romans built a city there called Ilium and the Hittites knew it as Wilusa or Truwisa. In fact, Schliemann wasn't convinced that Hisarlik (the Turkish name) was the proper site, but was convinced by another archaeologist who had been working in the area. Homer was decidedly accurate.

[cinepro]

Some of my observations and conclusions on horses in the BOM:

1. There is no evidence that horses were an important source of transportation -- probably only used by very wealthy or influential individuals.

2. There is evidence that they were a source for food -- the Nephites ate them.

3. No evidence of their use in war, no horseback riding but used to pull chariots.

4. It is very likely that the horse went extinct before the conclusion of the BOM. In Mesoamerica, at least, they were already gone when Columbus arrived.

Actually, there is no evidence that the Book of Mormon peoples used horses to pull their chariots.

I have a theory wherein the chariots were actually pulled by the people themselves, like handcarts, and they put the horses in the chariots to carry them.

Edited June 28, 2013 by cinepro

[Ron Beron]

Except in the BoM. Excluding the possibility of horses is about as rational as excluding Homers' tales as a reason to exclude Troy. Also keep in mind that there was no evidence for the horse culture on the Steps of Central Europe until a few years ago.

Are you referring to the Scythians?

[bcuzbcuz]

"art is a lie that leads to the truth" (or something like that) - Picasso

or better yet, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe." - Magritte

One of my favourite references. Magritte said it so well in so few words.

[cinepro]

I've seen claims that the pioneers crossing the plains also brought horses with them, as well as cattle and other animals. But it didn't say whether they were ridin' horses, or eatin' horses. So we must assume they were eatin' horses.

[bcuzbcuz]

Except in the BoM. Excluding the possibility of horses is about as rational as excluding Homers' tales as a reason to exclude Troy. Also keep in mind that there was no evidence for the horse culture on the Steps of Central Europe until a few years ago.

Not true. There are ample examples of horses, even given honorary positions, in grave sites. Horses were represented in stories, depictions and graves. Those who argued against horses on the steppes merely "cherry picked" evidence, even available to those who wished to look.

[bcuzbcuz]

You have to be careful basing anything on artwork it can be deceptive.

You only say that because you don't like Picasso.

[Bernard Gui]

Uh basically nothing. Scientists have long said that the horse probably originated in the Americas and migrated in the opposite direction of humans back to Asia, and that the horses in the Americas were likely hunted into extinction. Finding a really ancient horse in Canada doesnt help or hinder the B of M debate, nor does it change the conclusions that science had already reached.

How did the horses migrate?

[ERayR]

How did the horses migrate?

On foot. No body had horse trailers.

[thesometimesaint]

Not true. There are ample examples of horses, even given honorary positions, in grave sites. Horses were represented in stories, depictions and graves. Those who argued against horses on the steppes merely "cherry picked" evidence, even available to those who wished to look.

I guess if 2009 is old news of the evidence.

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2011/10/28/evidence-for-horse-domestication-clearer/#axzz2Xd89wCtR

Edited June 29, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[strappinglad]

For your consideration: http://crev.info/2013/06/are-these-horse-genes-really-700000-years-old/

[Five Solas]

No; It predates the horses mentioned in the BoM by a little less than 695,000 years.

Close enough for a testimony's sake, right?

;0)

--Erik

[Bernard Gui]

On foot. No body had horse trailers.

True. What did they eat as they passed over the Bering Strait area?

[Rivers]

From the perspective of a young-earth creationist, horses in the Book of Mormon is not at all a problem.

[Calm]

True. What did they eat as they passed over the Bering Strait area?

Probably grasses and such food as they normally ate:

The Bering Strait is a storm-prone stretch of water that separates two continents.

When we talk of a land bridge we tend to conjure up images of a narrow strip of terrain. The Bering land bridge was no such modest affair.

Its fortunes – and very existence – ebbed and flowed with rising and falling ocean levels. During cooler periods in the earth’s past, glacial ice would build up, dropping sea levels to expose or expand the land bridge.

A colder period that ended some 10,000 years ago saw the land bridge reach about twice the size of Texas, and scientists have even given it a name – Beringia.

You could even consider the current state of affairs, with a body of water separating Siberia and Alaska, as unusual. The land bridge has actually been in place more often than not during the past two million years or more.

It has come and gone for far longer than that. It first developed at least 70 million years ago and was a dry land route for the movement of plants and animals, including dinosaurs.

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/#axzz2XgJc9yJ0