Ancient Horse Dna From Canadian Yukon Sequenced

[thesometimesaint]

Close enough for a testimony's sake, right?

;0)

--Erik

No. I find it possible for the Nephites to have found the horse in Mesoamerica. But probably not in large numbers or extent. In any event from the BoM they were neither raised for food nor transportation. My testimony doesn't ride on a horse.

Edited June 30, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Sandy Petersen]

One relevant point might be the fact that we have found many Scythian grave sites and artifacts. Ancient writings testify of the Scythian skill at riding, and their near-worship of horses. No horse bones have been found in ANY Scythian archeological site. Yet no one doubts the existence of horses, in large numbers, there.

Central American horses, if they existed during the early Book of Mormon times, undoubtedly were far less important and more scarce than Scythian horses, and would be subsequently far less likely to leave any kind of trace. In addition, we can't read any writings from that time except the Book of Mormon, so we don't know if horses were referenced. Art from the time doesn't show horses. On the other hand, art from the time doesn't necessarily show a lot of things. Like sea turtles, which were probably lots more common (and more valuable) than horses.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that horses, already rare, hard to raise, and apparently not used for riding, went extinct sometime during the periods of huge social upheaval and war near the end of the Nephite days.

[bcuzbcuz]

No. I find it possible for the Nephites to have found the horse in Mesoamerica. But probably not in large numbers or extent. In any event from the BoM they were neither raised for food nor transportation. My testimony doesn't ride on a horse.

Horse populations exploded in the -Americas because the food supply (grasses) were in over abundance. Had horses existed, even in small groups, their numbers would have swelled. A simple DNA test will also show the heritage of modern American horses. Let me know if the DNA shows anything other than European-Arabian sources.

[ERayR]

True. What did they eat as they passed over the Bering Strait area?

Snow Cones?

[ERayR]

From the perspective of a young-earth creationist, horses in the Book of Mormon is not at all a problem.

From the perspective of a not so young earth creationists it is no problem.

[ERayR]

Horse populations exploded in the -Americas because the food supply (grasses) were in over abundance. Had horses existed, even in small groups, their numbers would have swelled. A simple DNA test will also show the heritage of modern American horses. Let me know if the DNA shows anything other than European-Arabian sources.

Looking for reletives?

[bcuzbcuz]

Looking for reletives?

Your humour escapes me......unless you think my relatives have something to do with a horse's ***?

I'd prefer you address the issue of present day horse DNA compared to European and Arabian horse DNA.

[strappinglad]

And just which present day horse would you like to test? If you think people become mixed, that is nothing when comparing all the different breeds and cross-breeds of horses that have been introduced to America.

[ERayR]

I'd prefer you address the issue of present day horse DNA compared to European and Arabian horse DNA.

It has been discussed ad-nauseum and I have had a boring day of sitting in a hospital room.

[Calm]

I have had a boring day of sitting in a hospital room.

Usually this is better than having an exciting time when one is in the hospital...given the implications.

[cdowis]

del

Edited July 1, 2013 by cdowis

[ERayR]

Usually this is better than having an exciting time when one is in the hospital...given the implications.

Don't get me wrong I am glad for how it is going. It's just that when bored I get testy and sarcastic.

[Ron Beron]

And just which present day horse would you like to test? If you think people become mixed, that is nothing when comparing all the different breeds and cross-breeds of horses that have been introduced to America.

Hence, the purpose of the article which has mapped out the genome of the horse which helps unravels this mess.

[cdowis]

I've seen claims that the pioneers crossing the plains also brought horses with them, as well as cattle and other animals. But it didn't say whether they were ridin' horses, or eatin' horses. So we must assume they were eatin' horses.

Do the pioneers ever record that horses were useful for food, as the BOM records?

[bcuzbcuz]

And just which present day horse would you like to test? If you think people become mixed, that is nothing when comparing all the different breeds and cross-breeds of horses that have been introduced to America.

And just which present day horse would you like to test? If you think people become mixed, that is nothing when comparing all the different breeds and cross-breeds of horses that have been introduced to America.

I would suggest you either read up on horse DNA, such as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang_horse

or DNA testing, in general, such as: http://genealogy.about.com/cs/geneticgenealogy/a/dna_tests.htm

The original horse to the Americas is related to the Spanish or Iberian horse stock. No matter how one twists or manipulates the facts, there is always certain strains in the DNA test that show relations back in time, when compared to available stock DNAs. When and IF someone ever finds any DNA in the Americas that relates to original Equus ferus, the original "wild horse", I will willingly read the research. Until then, any statement about Americas horse stock somehow relating to long extinct horses will be nothing other than speculation or even exploitation, devoid of facts.

[bcuzbcuz]

Do the pioneers ever record that horses were useful for food, as the BOM records?

Horse meat tastes just like chicken,

Well, actually it doesn't. Horse meat can quite easily fool anyone into thinking they're eating beef. The colour of the meat, when raw, is readily distinguishable from beef but varies little when prepared. Donkey meat and horse meat has been known to be switched for beef in some European markets, as evidenced by recent scandals. Whether American shoppers are being tricked to an equal degree can be left unsaid. The only problem with eating horse meat is not in flavor but in that the meat sources are poorly regulated and can easily be diseased or overdosed on medicines. The "man on the street" would not know by taste that a switch had been done.

[Ron Beron]

Horse meat tastes just like chicken,

Well, actually it doesn't. Horse meat can quite easily fool anyone into thinking they're eating beef. The colour of the meat, when raw, is readily distinguishable from beef but varies little when prepared. Donkey meat and horse meat has been known to be switched for beef in some European markets, as evidenced by recent scandals. Whether American shoppers are being tricked to an equal degree can be left unsaid. The only problem with eating horse meat is not in flavor but in that the meat sources are poorly regulated and can easily be diseased or overdosed on medicines. The "man on the street" would not know by taste that a switch had been done.

When I was in Japan on a mission I usually ate a cheaper meat until one day, after some linguistic insights, read that the primary ingredient of the meat I was eating used the Chinese character for "uma" or horse. Being from a family with a long history with horses and cows I couldn't eat any longer.

[thesometimesaint]

Horse populations exploded in the -Americas because the food supply (grasses) were in over abundance. Had horses existed, even in small groups, their numbers would have swelled. A simple DNA test will also show the heritage of modern American horses. Let me know if the DNA shows anything other than European-Arabian sources.

Lots depends on where you place the main events of the BoM. The jungles of central America aren't conducive for the horse. We have yet to find the bones for a Lehite horse. I eagerly await the findings.

[bcuzbcuz]

When I was in Japan on a mission I usually ate a cheaper meat until one day, after some linguistic insights, read that the primary ingredient of the meat I was eating used the Chinese character for "uma" or horse. Being from a family with a long history with horses and cows I couldn't eat any longer.

My very first meal on my mission (Sweden) was a horse meat sandwich, called "hamburgare meat" in Swedish, but horse meat by translation (I thought I was ordering a hamburger). When I discovered my error I was sick for two weeks. But I came to enjoy the flavour and taste. Taste is all in the mind!

[Ron Beron]

My very first meal on my mission (Sweden) was a horse meat sandwich, called "hamburgare meat" in Swedish, but horse meat by translation (I thought I was ordering a hamburger). When I discovered my error I was sick for two weeks. But I came to enjoy the flavour and taste. Taste is all in the mind!

"A horse is a horse, of course, of course"

Edited July 1, 2013 by Ron Beron

[Gervin]

Do the pioneers ever record that horses were useful for food, as the BOM records?

Would the Book of Mormon people been familiar with Leviticus 11:3 ("You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud")? If they followed the OT dietary laws, horse wouldn't be on the menu. But, then, the BOM doesn't really "record" that "horses were useful for (sic) food", does it?

[cdowis]

Would the Book of Mormon people been familiar with Leviticus 11:3 ("You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud")? If they followed the OT dietary laws, horse wouldn't be on the menu. But, then, the BOM doesn't really "record" that "horses were useful for (sic) food", does it?

OK, so they drank airag, or fermented mare's milk. (Note: this does not taste like chicken)

To me 3 Ne 4:4, and 6:1 certainly implies they were food animals.

Edited July 2, 2013 by cdowis

[strappinglad]

From my reading, the Spanish horses originated in Asia from horses that originated in ....wait for it...

North America. Scientists have established the domestication of the horse to between 2000 BC and 160,000 years ago. Such precision . If DNA can establish that all modern horses in NA came from Spanish horses then it also should be able to establish the links to the ancient feral horses in the same way that we are told we have some %age of Neanderthal DNA.

[bcuzbcuz]

From my reading, the Spanish horses originated in Asia from horses that originated in ....wait for it...

North America. Scientists have established the domestication of the horse to between 2000 BC and 160,000 years ago. Such precision . If DNA can establish that all modern horses in NA came from Spanish horses then it also should be able to establish the links to the ancient feral horses in the same way that we are told we have some %age of Neanderthal DNA.

Sarcasm translates poorly into the written form if too abbreviated in its presentation. My reading of the domestication of horses places the period from 4500 BCE to 2000BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse ;

http://animals.about.com/od/hoofedmammals/a/domesticationof.htm ; http://research.vet.upenn.edu/HavemeyerEquineBehaviorLabHomePage/ReferenceLibraryHavemeyerEquineBehaviorLab/HavemeyerWorkshops/HorseBehaviorandWelfare1316June2002/HorseBehaviorandWelfare2/DomesticationBreedDiversificationandEarlyHis/tabid/3127/Default.aspx ;

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/mystery-of-the-domestication-of-the-horse-solved

I took pictures this last week from Berlin (Pergamon Museum) wall sculpture, depicting Babylonian king riding in a chariot, drawn by horses and dated 3000 BCE would give a pretty clear indication of domestication. I'll include them if you're interested.

The Egyptians have no depictions of horses, prior to 1600 BCE, in any of their drawings or sculptures or writings, because they didn't have the horse. There are over 1 million artifacts, worldwide, from the Egyptian pharaonic periods from 4000 BCE to 1600 BCE (when horses were introduced) with no depictions of horses. Equally so there are no depictions of horses in the Aboriginal paintings from Australia or from Central, South or North America prior to European settlement, for the same reason. These native peoples did not have a word in their language for "horse", the Blackfoot tribe used the word "elk-dog" (or spirit-dog, sacred-dog, moose-dog) to describe their concept of how a horse looked and what a horse was good for.

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheOrphanBoyAndTheElkDog-Blackfoot.html

The Romans, on the other hand, have a multitude of statues, paintings and depictions of horses, because they had the horse.

Your statement that the domestication of the horse could have occurred 160,000 years ago, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for a CFR.

[canard78]

OK, so they drank airag, or fermented mare's milk. (Note: this does not taste like chicken)

To me 3 Ne 4:4, and 6:1 certainly implies they were food animals.

While we're doing the mental gymnastics maybe 'chariot' is actually a Nephite word for cocoa bean (it just sounds like chariot to the ignorant ear).

"...and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance." (3 Nep 3:22)

Why would it talk about "horses, and chariots" and then their different types of substance (the commas are later additions aren't they?). Bear in mind that all of the above is done to prepare to "gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies."