Contemporary Evidence Of Joseph'S Polygamy

[Alan]

As some of you may have gathered, I am in a small minority in the church who believe Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. So I would like to invite anyone to present contemporary evidence from the Nauvoo period or before, that proves his involvement.

In doing so, please be careful regardingthe dates. Just because something is specifically dated does not mean it was actually written then. The History of the Church or William Clayton's diaries for example have been extensively revised and back-written and are therefore unreliable for our present purpose.

Many thanks.

[Tacenda]

As some of you may have gathered, I am in a small minority in the church who believe Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. So I would like to invite anyone to present contemporary evidence from the Nauvoo period or before, that proves his involvement.

In doing so, please be careful regardingthe dates. Just because something is specifically dated does not mean it was actually written then. The History of the Church or William Clayton's diaries for example have been extensively revised and back-written and are therefore unreliable for our present purpose.

Many thanks.

Is my testimony enough? No, seriously just stick with what your heart tells you and maybe leave it alone Alan. Many people probably wish they hadn't ever heard of it and be in that safe, happy place again. And most people in the church don't know of his polygamy so you aren't in a minority there.

ETA: I found this, but take it or leave it. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/SP6X-Q65

BTW, this gives a thumbs up for the church for not hiding information like I've said or others have said before!

Edited June 24, 2013 by Tacenda

[Questing Beast]

I recommend Todd Compton's book, "In Sacred Loneliness", that should be sufficient. His research experience and skills will vastly exceed mine and probably yours. If you can't trust an honest historian, with years of experience and connections to original sources, then you are not in a position to complain about your own level of ignorance. The Church has always supported seeking knowledge by personal study from "the best books", which I consider In Sacred Loneliness to be. If that book is not one of the "best books", then we might as well give up trying to learn anything from reading at all. The challenge to discern truth by personal study becomes a crock. If you consider History of the Church and other original sources that have filtered through the hands of the Church's historians as no longer viable because of "back writing", you have set up a straw man of enormous proportions: for what piece of evidence can any layman accept? Only the as-yet undiscovered diaries and journals in private hands? Compton laid his eyes on the original documents in many instances, but even his research had to be satisfied with trusted dissemination of the original sources, because many of the originals are kept under lock and key....

Edited June 24, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Alan]

I recommend Todd Compton's book, "In Sacred Loneliness", that should be sufficient. His research experience and skills will vastly exceed mine and probably yours. If you can't trust an honest historian, with years of experience and connections to original sources, then you are not in a position to complain about your own level of ignorance. The Church has always supported seeking knowledge by personal study from "the best books", which I consider In Sacred Loneliness to be. If that book is not one of the "best books", then we might as well give up trying to learn anything from reading at all. The challenge to discern truth by personal study becomes a crock. If you consider History of the Church and other original sources that have filtered through the hands of the Church's historians as no longer viable because of "back writing", you have set up a straw man of enormous proportions: for what piece of evidence can any layman accept? Only the as-yet undiscovered diaries and journals in private hands? Compton laid his eyes on the original documents in many instances, but even his research had to be satisfied with trusted dissemination of the original sources, because many of the originals are kept under lock and key....

I recommend you follow the references in Todd Compton's book. They go nowhere.

Very few original sources, and no contemporary ones at all.

[Nevo]

William Clayton's diaries for example have been extensively revised and back-written and are therefore unreliable for our present purpose.

CFR.

[rpn]

deleted

Edited June 24, 2013 by rpn

[canard78]

Is my testimony enough? No, seriously just stick with what your heart tells you and maybe leave it alone Alan. Many people probably wish they hadn't ever heard of it and be in that safe, happy place again. And most people in the church don't know of his polygamy so you aren't in a minority there.

ETA: I found this, but take it or leave it. https://familysearch...M9.2.1/SP6X-Q65

BTW, this gives a thumbs up for the church for not hiding information like I've said or others have said before!

Familysearch is an interesting source and one that the critics revel in referencing. An official LDS website listing all his wives!

But... it's not the church listing the wives. It's contributors. That reference has 57 wives. All of them have been added by contributors. Anyone can add a wife. You could make your great, great grandma a Joseph wife on there. So this is not actually evidence he was a polygamist, only evidence that people today think one of their ancestors was one of his wives. Having used familysearch a fair amount, it's very exciting when one of your ancestors links into a line with a lot of work done on it. But it's a little disappointing when you contact the person behind that link and discover they'd made the connection with very little evidence and a lot more speculation.

Technically, a church 'critic' could join the site and also drum up a few more wives of Joseph.

[canard78]

This sets up an interesting quandary...

Either:Joseph was a monogamist and the next generation of the church rewrote history to suit their (non-divinely sanctioned) polygamy.

Or: Joseph did practice polygamy and he lied about it and got lots of other people to do the same.

I think I prefer the first option. There is plenty of evidence the BY was not the best source of doctrine (but was a great leader and motivator of people). Adam/God, blood atonement, blacks and the priesthood. There's a long list of things that should have never been said/done. Maybe polygamy's another one of his.

Having said that, given they sealed (dead) Joseph to his wives for eternity in Nauvoo temple, the polygamy 'conspiracy' started within a few months of his death. That seems like a stretch of the imagination.

You've acknowledged elsewhere that he was sealed to other women. Do you simply not accept those as (consummated) marriage relationships because of a lack of evidence?

[Nevo]

So I would like to invite anyone to present contemporary evidence from the Nauvoo period or before, that proves his involvement.

Evidence from the Nauvoo period or before that indicates that Joseph Smith taught and personally practiced polygamy includes:

• Oliver Cowdery letter to Warren Cowdery, 21 January 1838
  
• John C. Bennett, History of the Saints (1842)
  
• William Clayton Nauvoo diaries
  
• William Law Nauvoo diary
  
• D&C 132
  
• [Francis Higbee], "Buckeye's Lamentation for Want of More Wives," Warsaw Message (7 February 1844): 1
  
• Nauvoo Expositor (7 June 1844)
  

Also, the fact that two of Joseph's brothers, nearly all of the Quorum of the Twelve, and 43 percent of the men initiated into Joseph Smith's Anointed Quorum (and 58 percent of those who received their second anointing) practiced polygamy is strong evidence that Joseph approved of it.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Nevo

[Questing Beast]

I recommend you follow the references in Todd Compton's book. They go nowhere.

Very few original sources, and no contemporary ones at all.

Seriously? He writes an entire book about all of JS's wives, a chapter for each, and it all goes forward from "nowhere". What does that mean exactly?

Of course no contemporary sources from Nauvoo are forthcoming, they didn't talk or write about it. But the other evidence is powerful, especially the original accounts of JS himself performing plural marriages, and the resulting children from Nauvoo polygamy. If you would have JS only having sexual relations with Emma, yet teaching and promoting plural marriage for his followers, you have some serious explaining to do....

[Alan]

Evidence from the Nauvoo period or before that indicates that Joseph Smith taught and personally practiced polygamy includes:

• Oliver Cowdery letter to Warren Cowdery, 21 January 1838
  
• John C. Bennett, History of the Saints (1842)
  
• William Clayton Nauvoo diaries
  
• William Law Nauvoo diary
  
• D&C 132
  
• [Francis Higbee], "Buckeye's Lamentation for Want of More Wives," Warsaw Message (7 February 1844): 1
  
• Nauvoo Expositor (7 June 1844)
  

Also, the fact that two of Joseph's brothers, nearly all of the Quorum of the Twelve, and 43 percent of the men initiated into Joseph Smith's Anointed Quorum (and 58 percent of those who received their second anointing) practiced polygamy is strong evidence that Joseph approved of it.

John C Bennett !!!

William Law !!!

Francis Higbee !!!

Nauvoo Expositor !!!

Are you serious?

Is that really the best you can do?

Edited June 26, 2013 by Alan

[Teancum]

John C Bennett !!!

William Law !!!

Francis Higbee !!!

Nauvoo Expositor !!!

Are you serious?

Is that really the best you can do?

Why not? Really Alan, I asked you before, as an active LDS person if JS did not practice this what does that say about BY and those who led the Church from Nauvoo. Were they are liars? Were the "allleged" wives of JS liars? How about D&C 132 for evidence from the Nauvoo period. Your D&C published by the LDS Church says this was a revelation JS received. It references wives JS has taken and also tells Emma she better accept it or be destroyed. Is the LDS Church lying by attributing this revelation to JS?

Edited June 26, 2013 by Teancum

[Alan]

So we are quoting and relying on the testimonies of Joseph's most bitter enemies. We are prepared to believe them over Joseph.

My goodness me!

[Nevo]

So we are quoting and relying on the testimonies of Joseph's most bitter enemies. We are prepared to believe them over Joseph.

My goodness me!

Obviously, evidence from unfriendly sources should be used cautiously but it is still evidence. Because polygamy was taught and practiced secretly, the only people who discussed it publicly tended to be apostates. But all of the individuals I listed were in a position to know whether Joseph taught/practiced polygamy. Cowdery and Bennett were Assistant Presidents of the Church. Law was a counselor in the First Presidency. Higbee was a suitor of Nancy Rigdon (the recipient of one of Joseph's proposals). Clayton, of course, was not an apostate but a trusted clerk and scribe to the Prophet (and was himself a polygamist).

[cinepro]

So we are quoting and relying on the testimonies of Joseph's most bitter enemies. We are prepared to believe them over Joseph.

My goodness me!

Would you prefer the testimony of his closest friends? Because I'm pretty sure Nevo could do that for you too.

[Teancum]

So we are quoting and relying on the testimonies of Joseph's most bitter enemies. We are prepared to believe them over Joseph.

My goodness me!

William Law was not an enemy until JS introduced polygamy into the church. This was the prime cause of his disaffection. Some claim Smith wanted Law's wife for a polyandrous relationship.

But as noted, your main problem is D&C 132, the fact the Joseph's successors claimed polygamy was from him, the fact that numerous women testified they were his wives and the fact that the current LDS church attributes it to Smith. If you are right then the currnt LDS church leadership are liars and BY and the twelve of his day led the church severely astray. Which is the best choice for you?

[Alan]

William Law was not an enemy until JS introduced polygamy into the church. This was the prime cause of his disaffection. Some claim Smith wanted Law's wife for a polyandrous relationship.

But as noted, your main problem is D&C 132, the fact the Joseph's successors claimed polygamy was from him, the fact that numerous women testified they were his wives and the fact that the current LDS church attributes it to Smith. If you are right then the currnt LDS church leadership are liars and BY and the twelve of his day led the church severely astray. Which is the best choice for you?

See, that is where we go wrong. William Law became an enemy when he came to believe Joseph introduced plural marriage. If he had real evidence (ie. other than hearsay) he would have produced it.

I note what you say about D&C 132.

I think we can all agree that the provenance of this document was unusual at the very least. That alone should cause us to pause for thought.

There are inconsistencies or odd statements within the document. Why would Joseph need to ask about the validity of David and Solomon's polygamy, when the answer had already been given in the Book of Mormon? It's like saying, I know the 10 commandments say I shouldn't covet, so I'll pray and ask God if it's ok to covet.

Secondly, Emma is warned that she would be destroyed if she didn't accept the teaching. She didn't accept it but went on to live to a ripe old age and was not destroyed. It is very obvious from reading the revelation that the destruction mentioned concerned the flesh.

It appears to me that some of D&C 132 owes a lot to a pamphlet written by Udney R. Jacobs called The Peace Maker, published in 1842. This pamphlet, which promoted Polygamy based on the practice of the ancients, was publicly condemned by Joseph.

On the wider question of Brigham Young, I have a very simple approach. He is known for 5 major doctrine/practice positions.

1. Polygamy

2. Adam-God

3. Blood Atonement

4. Co-operative economics

5. Priesthood bar for Blacks

I simply observe that every one of these has been dropped by the church.

[Questing Beast]

diary of william law I1 january 1844] "fearful and terrible yea most distressing have been the scenes

through which we have past during the last few months through our religious zeal we harkened to

the teachings of man more than to the written word of god yea for a short moment even in contradiction

to the commandments of the most high but his spirit prevailed and before the fearful step was

taken we saw and learned that justice and truth virtue and holiness could alone bring us into the

presence of god."

So is the diary of Wm Law also altered and interpolated after the fact? And how does one go about altering an original document, in another's handwriting without the alteration being obvious? Either you have authentic diary entries or you have faked ones. This is just one example of how contemporary Nauvoo diaries and journals show that JS taught "the principle" in private and later extended it to even his first counselor and brother Hyrum. It was secret even from his closest friend, after Emma, until just a year before the killing at Carthage.... https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/22.1CookWilliam-812be19f-f962-4091-bf12-ff7ca3fd7502.pdf

[CA Steve]

Alan,

Is it just polygamy or do you also believe Joseph Smith was not responsible for other developments in the Nauvoo era like the temple ceremony, ordinances and proxy work?

[Alan]

diary of william law I1 january 1844] "fearful and terrible yea most distressing have been the scenes

through which we have past during the last few months through our religious zeal we harkened to

the teachings of man more than to the written word of god yea for a short moment even in contradiction

to the commandments of the most high but his spirit prevailed and before the fearful step was

taken we saw and learned that justice and truth virtue and holiness could alone bring us into the

presence of god."

Doesn't mention plural marriage once.

What's your point?

[Alan]

Alan,

Is it just polygamy or do you also believe Joseph Smith was not responsible for other developments in the Nauvoo era like the temple ceremony, ordinances and proxy work?

Proxy work - meaning endowments, washings and anointings etc for the dead - were not introduced into the church until the church was settled in Utah and had built a temple.

The temple ceremony was introduced by Joseph. However, it was later fleshed out with quite a bit more Masonic content by Brigham.

[Tacenda]

Proxy work - meaning endowments, washings and anointings etc for the dead - were not introduced into the church until the church was settled in Utah and had built a temple.

The temple ceremony was introduced by Joseph. However, it was later fleshed out with quite a bit more Masonic content by Brigham.

In the Work & the Glory series, once they built the Nauvoo temple they were doing work all day & night before they were run out. Was this just something different, like marriage sealings only?

[webbles]

On the wider question of Brigham Young, I have a very simple approach. He is known for 5 major doctrine/practice positions.

1. Polygamy

2. Adam-God

3. Blood Atonement

4. Co-operative economics

5. Priesthood bar for Blacks

I simply observe that every one of these has been dropped by the church.

I think we can all agree that Brigham Young and others started polygamy while Joseph Smith was still alive. If I remember correctly, a few polygamous wives even had children before Joseph died. So how were these men able to convince these women that Joseph was publicly lying? These women were there in Nauvoo, they heard Joseph Smith publicly deny polygamy. What prevented them from personally asking Joseph? If I was a polygamous wife and I heard the prophet say that polygamy was wrong and then I saw one of the councilors in the first presidency get reprimanded for practicing polygamy, why would I trust the Brigham's word?

Bennett tried this approach and it failed for him. Why did it work for Brigham?

[Alan]

In the Work & the Glory series, once they built the Nauvoo temple they were doing work all day & night before they were run out. Was this just something different, like marriage sealings only?

It was endowments for the living. Sealings too I would suppose.

Most Saints wanted their endowment before they made the journey west.

[cinepro]

Proxy work - meaning endowments, washings and anointings etc for the dead - were not introduced into the church until the church was settled in Utah and had built a temple.

The temple ceremony was introduced by Joseph. However, it was later fleshed out with quite a bit more Masonic content by Brigham.

Why doesn't "proxy work" also mean "baptisms for the dead"?