Calm Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) But how many people here know about a rarely talked about incident when Joseph Smith declared a small grocery store a public nuisance because it sold alcohol, and then had it destroyed when the owner tried to defend his property. Joseph Smith showed up with some men, got into a fight, knocked him out and said something like "this is how we do it here." The owner of that grocery store turned out to be one of the leaders of the Mob that eventually killed Joseph Smith.For those who feel some details may have been left out in this description, see http://www.withoutend.org/joseph-smiths-personal-feud-ringleader-carthage-mob/#6 as well as the link available in footnote 6Also this, too bad not an eyewitness account: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/DOsborn.htmlThere was an apostate by the name of John Eagle, a large man and quite a bully. He kept a grocery in a little frame house on a side hill at Nauvoo. The city council passed an ordinance forbidding the sale of liquor. Joseph being the mayor sent a writ by an officer to bring him before the council, but Eagle refused to have him serve the summons, he being afraid of him. He returned the writ to Joseph. "Well," says he, "I never did send a man to do anything which I was afraid to do myself and I believe I can take him." So he went up to the grocery where there was quite a crowd of men. Eagle saw him coming and suspecting his business, squared himself, striking at him, but Joseph dodged the blow and then was his turn. He knocked him down the second time before he was willing to stand. He served the writ and afterwards sent a few men and tipped over his little house and poured out his liquor. This was frequently spoken of at Nauvoo though I saw nothing of it myself. Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah
ERayR Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 For those who feel some details may have been left out in this description, see http://www.withouten...carthage-mob/#6 as well as the link available in footnote 6Also this, too bad not an eyewitness account: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/DOsborn.htmlSounds like a well documented source to me: " This was frequently spoken of at Nauvoo though I saw nothing of it myself". What it really sounds like is a real good fishing story.
Calm Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 Sounds like a well documented source to me: " This was frequently spoken of at Nauvoo though I saw nothing of it myself". What it really sounds like is a real good fishing story. Yeah, that 'quote' from Joseph sounds like something one would want him to say. 1
why me Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 Exactly my point. Rather than say, "We can do better than the Lutherans" you go down this road of attacking them and saying that they didn't do enough. Didn't go near far enough.But you attack me for using the same logic in regards to the LDS church.What's good for the goose is good for the gander............I am not attacking anyone. I am just saying that no church teaches their flock their complete history. But they do try to lead their flock closer to god. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
ERayR Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 I am not attacking anyone. I am just saying that no church teaches their flock their complete history. But they do try to lead their flock closer to god. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.To my knowledge nobody brought anybody to Christ by teaching history.
why me Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 Still checking some of this out but have no current reason to doubt it, regarding Fanny's family:"The following account was written by Jo Kester, a descendant of Fanny Alger.Solomon and Fanny (Alger) Custer are my maternal gr-gr-grandparents and I have been researching them for over twenty years. My Mother was also a researcher for many years...My Mother stated that there was never a Mormon Church in that area and in fact, Solomon and Fanny were members of the Universalist Church of Dublin, Indiana.Fanny's affair with Joseph Smith took place in 1835. When their relationship became public knowledge, Fanny fled from the home of Joseph and Emma Smith to be with her parents in Indiana...I also believe that she was very ashamed of her affair with Smith because she never mentioned it to her children.My grandmother...did mention that Brigham Young..., accompanied by Fanny's brother, John Alger, did come to Indiana, before Fanny married Solomon Custer, to ask her to marry him. She answered him by saying, "You are a fine young man but I want to be an only wife."I see the account has loaded connotative words which would be consistent with someone which wants to sway public opinion and paint a bad light on it. However, what we have are a brother, a mother and a father who were active church members and never referred to Fanny's relationship as an affair or have her fleeing. And the BY episode of course needs to be proven. Who told the grandmother what was said? Fanny? And thus we have a problem. What we can go on is what fanny told her son about her sealing to joseph smith when she said that it was her business and hers alone. No negative word about Joseph. Now isn't it strange that fanny never gave her mom and dad a bad picture of the relationship? Why let mom, dad and brother still go to a church with a 'pervert' as leader? Any comments?
Glenn101 Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 I see the account has loaded connotative words which would be consistent with someone which wants to sway public opinion and paint a bad light on it. However, what we have are a brother, a mother and a father who were active church members and never referred to Fanny's relationship as an affair or have her fleeing. And the BY episode of course needs to be proven. Who told the grandmother what was said? Fanny? And thus we have a problem. What we can go on is what fanny told her son about her sealing to joseph smith when she said that it was her business and hers alone. No negative word about Joseph. Now isn't it strange that fanny never gave her mom and dad a bad picture of the relationship? Why let mom, dad and brother still go to a church with a 'pervert' as leader? Any comments?You have to understand that none of those people knew as much about what was going on as we do today. Glenn
bcuzbcuz Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 To my knowledge nobody brought anybody to Christ by teaching history.I would respectfully disagree. Were you not taught the stories of Moses and Noah, all the stories of Christ's life and the stories of the Nephite profets, as though they were historical fact? I was. Weren't these stories repeated over and over again in Sunday School and church magazines until they became imprinted on your mind and memorized in detail? They were for me. I know my non-Mormon friends got the same treatment for the stories of Christ and the Old Testament. The stories become an integral part of the believer, accepted as fact, imbedded in thought and actions. I don't believe these stories can be parsed out from a testimony.
why me Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 To my knowledge nobody brought anybody to Christ by teaching history.This is true and this is why churches don't spend their sunday's teaching it or even discussing it. However, we do have a problem. Many members of the lds church wish to see perfection in their history and the first sign of imperfection can give such members a tumbling experience. I think that this comes from hearing so many wonder things said about church leaders in church magazines and lessons. For example, the manuals dealing with church presidents. Or the perceptions that church sources give.However, the D&C does not give a wonderful perception of Joseph Smith as a perfect human being.
ERayR Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 I would respectfully disagree. Were you not taught the stories of Moses and Noah, all the stories of Christ's life and the stories of the Nephite profets, as though they were historical fact? I was. Weren't these stories repeated over and over again in Sunday School and church magazines until they became imprinted on your mind and memorized in detail? They were for me.I know my non-Mormon friends got the same treatment for the stories of Christ and the Old Testament. The stories become an integral part of the believer, accepted as fact, imbedded in thought and actions. I don't believe these stories can be parsed out from a testimony.I didn't say history wasn't taught. I just don't know anybody that says "Gee that history lesson convinced me that Christ atoned for my sins".
ERayR Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 This is true and this is why churches don't spend their sunday's teaching it or even discussing it. However, we do have a problem. Many members of the lds church wish to see perfection in their history and the first sign of imperfection can give such members a tumbling experience. I think that this comes from hearing so many wonder things said about church leaders in church magazines and lessons. For example, the manuals dealing with church presidents. Or the perceptions that church sources give.However, the D&C does not give a wonderful perception of Joseph Smith as a perfect human being.It has been said that Mormons teach that Church leaders are not infallible but expect them to be. I believe that problem is what causes so many, so much trouble.
why me Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 I would respectfully disagree. Were you not taught the stories of Moses and Noah, all the stories of Christ's life and the stories of the Nephite profets, as though they were historical fact? I was. Weren't these stories repeated over and over again in Sunday School and church magazines until they became imprinted on your mind and memorized in detail? They were for me.I know my non-Mormon friends got the same treatment for the stories of Christ and the Old Testament. The stories become an integral part of the believer, accepted as fact, imbedded in thought and actions. I don't believe these stories can be parsed out from a testimony.I think that the problems come from tidbits about what people said about Joseph and Brigham etc. For example, with history we have a lot of detail about what was claimed by John C. Bennett or William Law or someone else. We don't have such second hand, first hand or third hand accounts about christ or the prophets outside the scriptures. We know that prophets were not perfect because they were human beings. We know that luther was not perfect nor any pope. We accept their imperfections. But the critics do not allow members to accept lds leaders' imperfections since they bring them out and shout: Look here! Your leaders said this or they said that! How can you be a member of such a church!And unfortunately, it works.
why me Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) It has been said that Mormons teach that Church leaders are not infallible but expect them to be. I believe that problem is what causes so many, so much trouble.But I have no idea who would expect church leaders to be perfect. If we have the lord criticizing Joseph Smith in the D&C for his imperfections why should members expect perfection from him. Or from Brigham? I think that the lds have a perception problem. This is something that catholics or protestants do not have about their history or leaders.And the critics claim that the lds church hides its history because they do not want members to see the imperfections. And such a tactic works. Edited June 24, 2013 by why me
ERayR Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 But I have no idea who would expect church leaders to be perfect. If we have the lord criticizing Joseph Smith in the D&C for his imperfections why should members expect perfection from him. Or from Brigham? I think that the lds have a perception problem. This is something that catholics or protestants do not have about their history or leaders.And the critics claim that the lds church hides its history because they do not want members to see the imperfections. And such a tactic works.I hear so many "exit stories" that say "If Joweph were really a prophet he would not have done________". or "Why doesn't the prophet just issue a statement an clarify ___________ point of doctrine. If he were really a prophet he should know".
Calm Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 It has been said that Mormons teach that Church leaders are not infallible but expect them to be. I believe that problem is what causes so many, so much trouble.There is a sense of safety when one believes one's leaders aren't going to be making any major mistakes. One can relax and not work so hard at figuring out what one is supposed to do, just look at one's leader and follow his steps. Many people need that sense of safety, perhaps because their life so far has not been safe or the people they are closest to do not provide that sense of stability that we all need and so they go looking for it elsewhere.It only becomes a real problem when they allow themselves instead of using the time of safety to explore and push themselves knowing that there will be someone there to catch them if they fall, but to retreat and relax and continue on autopilot more or less. It can also be a problem if people try to convince themselves that they feel safe and secure and therefore no longer need to have the habit of defensiveness and self-protection, but fool themselves that they have grown out of it and instead when perceiving a threat, drop into older, self-destructive habits again turning on what they sought out as a refuge from such uncertainty because they didn't let go of the fear when they could have. 1
Calm Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) But I have no idea who would expect church leaders to be perfect.I don't think they want them to be perfect so much as predictable, safe, no surprises. That way they can figure out the proper way to respond and never have to really question it again. The Church becomes a stable centre in a chaotic world....and then when it is shown that chaos is right there as it is everywhere else? Fear of not knowing what the future might bring leads to anger at feeling betrayed by supposed promise of peace and serenity (external, not internal) and bitterness for a lost dream of a if not perfect happiness, at least an understood and predictable one. Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah 1
Garden Girl Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) No missionary hands out the PoGP, or the D&C, where the rest of the story is told, in fact the most critical story is told, the BoM is the advertisement along with the many new ad campaigns put up everywhere.No, they just invite investigators to attend Church where they attend classes that quote from these sources... and the investigator is advised of official Church websites, which contain these scriptures, easily available for study. And, while the BoM is the main focus to an investigator, I'm sure the missionaries would give them the PoGP and D&C in print form.ETA: Ran out of posts Deborah, but to answer to the last post to me, I'd have to say, you are one of the lucky ones to have the spirit tell you it's true. But in the scriptures it says this....Romans 10:17 - Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith does not come by feelings or by praying for emotional experiences1 Peter 3:15- We too should persuade people, not by telling them to follow their emotions, but by giving them reasons: evidence from God's word.Acts 17:11 - To know whether or not some teaching is true, we should search the Scriptures daily, not pray for an emotional experience.Galatians 1:8,9; 1 John 4:1,6; 2 John 9-11 - Many false prophets are in the world. How do we know who speaks the truth? Not by feelings, but by comparing what men teach to the true gospel recorded in the New Testament.Tacenda...I've read each of these scriptures... and I see you've added your personal interpretations... no where are we told to tell people to follow their emotions... nor are we to pray for an emotional experience... or to judge something based on feelings...Rather, we are told to pray for the confirmation and guidance of the Spirit... huge difference... do you know the difference, Tacenda?Also, to listen for the still small voice... (which I have heard on numerous occasions, and it goes to the core, and is unforgettable). I have followed the admonition of Moroni... to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if I ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Jesus Christ, he will manifest the truth to me by the power of the Holy Ghost... and by the power of the Holy Ghost, I may know the truth of all things...As I read, ponder and pray, not only from the standard works, but a wide variety of resources, I do so to gain knowledge and to be edified... and I pray often to receive the witness of the Spirit in regard to many of these things...GG Edited June 24, 2013 by Garden Girl 1
Calm Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 No missionary hands out the PoGP, or the D&C, where the rest of the story is told, https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/what-do-i-study-and-teach/lesson-4-the-commandments?lang=eng&country=caScriptures included in Preach My Gospel Lessons 2 and 4D&C 58:26–29D&C 82:8–10D&C 130:20–21D&C 6:22–23D&C 8:2–3D&C 9:7–9D&C 19:28D&C 59:9–15D&C 1:37–38D&C 21:1–7D&C 136:37–38D&C 59:5–6D&C 42:22–24D&C 63:16D&C 89D&C 119D&C 120D&C 88:76D&C 59:12–16D&C 58:21D&C 98:5D&C 130:20–21D&C 134Articles of Faith 1:12 The approved scriptures of the Church, also called the standard works, are the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. We should study these sacred books daily.Seems to me a great deal of the rest of the story is told even in just this one lesson.And lesson 2 certainly contains quite a bit of the PoGP along with the D&CD&C 93:29Moses 1:39D&C 138:53–56Moses 3:5Abraham 3:22–26D&C 88:41–47Moses 2:1Moses 6:63Abraham 3:24–25JST, John 1:1–3Moses 2:26–31Moses 3:15–17Moses 5:11Moses 4Moses 5:10–12Abraham 3:25–26Moses 6:57D&C 88:27–32JST, 1 Corinthians 15:40D&C 19:15–19D&C 45:3–5D&C 138D&C 132:12; 137:9D&C 76: IntroductionD&C 76D&C 137D&C 14:7D&C 29:43–44D&C 45:8D&C 93:19Moses 1:39Moses 4:19–31Abraham 3:24–25D&C 19:15–20).D&C 14:7D&C 76; 137D&C 137:9).D&C 76:50–70).D&C 76:75, 79)Moses 3:7And there are 4 more lessons, IIRC. 1
Calm Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) Also an inexpensive D&C and PoGP text is available in those few countries that don't have triples: http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_715839595_10557_21239_-1_N_image_0Why go to all that work if one wants to hide what's in them? For the grand old price of 2 to 4 dollars.And a triple in English only costs 5 dollars....I am just not seeing a huge effort to suppress these scriptures when teaching new converts and investigators. Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah 2
Calm Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 And then the layering of new info and spending hours, days, months and now years studying it, has unfolded truth. Why are you so certain that you have reached the unfolded truth now and not that it might be buried under a few more layers or even many more layers? 2
ERayR Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 We wouldn't be having this discussion if it weren't for things like this. And it hurts to be the bad guy in complaining about something that hurt so much in the end. I'd always believed BY and the others after him were just taking care of the widows. Until I stumbled across a website dealing with JS's wives and some of them polyandrus. In fact it was if I was in a wreck and everything was slow motion. I remember distinctly standing up and going outside and my neighbor was out in her yard, and I walked up to her, she's LDS, and asked if she knew about it. It was so new to me I had no idea I'd hurt anyones testimony. Luckily this neighbor was shock proof, her mom is a nonmember and had told her every anti mormon trick in the book. So she immediately discounted what I was saying as if it was anti. And then the layering of new info and spending hours, days, months and now years studying it, has unfolded truth. Have you ever heard that people study their way out of the church, I never knew what that meant until now. But I'm sticking to the business of hope that the church will shed light and shed any doctrine out there that shouldn't have existed. And maybe truly become a Christian church.I am truly sorry you have spent all that pain, emotion and time on something that, If you believe JS translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God and that he restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ with its saving ordinances, is totally irrelevant. You are not asked to live polygamy. It is nothing you have to worry about. Try a little exercise. Think about all the things in your life. Think about which is most important. Then think about how polygamy affects them(I mean really affects them not how it might if it were being practiced). See how irrelevant it really is. Do not waste another minute on it. Why do you let such irrelevancies affect your happiness and family relations.I don't know what else I can offer.
Danzo Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 I think that some people may be making a few assumptions 1. Everyone in the church 'leadership' knows all of the church history2. Everything known right now has always been known by these 'leaders'3. People in the church 'leadership' decide what is to be hidden and what is to be revealed.4. If something is not mentioned in the correlated manuals, is been deliberately hidden. 5. Most people care.6. The 'church' is responsible to make people care
Danzo Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) One other thing to consider. Most of the leadership in the church grew up in a time when polygamy was recent history, still practiced by some. Everyone knew about it, everyone talked about it, every one knew people who were half brothers. My grandparents from Utah, talked about it, it is in all of the family histories that we have. Sometimes, when everyone around you knows about it, it is hard to see the point of being worried that no one knows. Especially since the church is not practicing it anymore. I can see how people without this heritage might be ignorant of it, but I can also understand why many, especially the older generation that grew up in Utah and Arizona, just assume everyone knows about it. Edited June 24, 2013 by Danzo
Calm Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 especially the older generation that grew up in Utah and Arizona, just assume everyone knows about it.Also Mexico, Canada (Cardston area) and Idaho.
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