Stone Box

[Tacenda]

That's right, folks! Just rub it in. I already feel badly enough about being so far away from my books without charitable people like you rubbing it in. Thanks! Thanks a lot!

We still love ya!

[MormonMason]

http://www.lds.org/l...M100000176f620a____

I saw this on LDS.org. On it there are questions by different individuals pertaining to the gold plates. Questions that never even entered my mind until now. I have one to add, how did the many authors of the BoM engrave on the gold plates? What did they use? Why didn't this ever cross my mind?

Attempting to return to at least a related subject.

They would have used one of two items, a sharp stylus of iron or a sharp stylus of hardened ("steeled") copper. Either would serve the purpose of engraving thin plates of gold alloy. We pretty much can know that the plates used by Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni were not pure gold because they were said to be made out of "ore" and were referred to as "plates of ore." Moroni could not make more plates because he did not have "ore." "Ore" would appear to have been impure gold. This would have given the plates the relative ease of engraving gold with the hardness and durability required for use in plates for engraving sacred text and history intended to be preserved with less risk of damage to the inscriptions.

[Stone holm]

Attempting to return to at least a related subject.

They would have used one of two items, a sharp stylus of iron or a sharp stylus of hardened ("steeled") copper. Either would serve the purpose of engraving thin plates of gold alloy. We pretty much can know that the plates used by Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni were not pure gold because they were said to be made out of "ore" and were referred to as "plates of ore." Moroni could not make more plates because he did not have "ore." "Ore" would appear to have been impure gold. This would have given the plates the relative ease of engraving gold with the hardness and durability required for use in plates for engraving sacred text and history intended to be preserved with less risk of damage to the inscriptions.

What do you mean by "ore".

[canard78]

That's right, folks! Just rub it in. I already feel badly enough about being so far away from my books without charitable people like you rubbing it in. Thanks! Thanks a lot!

Sorry to be the salt in the already festering wound.

Can you not even remember what the title might have been? Has the claim been seconded elsewhere? Like I said, I found it odd that you'd cherry-pick a critic's statement as evidence that a stone box washed down a hill.

[MormonMason]

What do you mean by "ore".

A mixture of gold and other metals, such as silver and/or copper; gold in its mineral state.

Copper in chemical ore and in free ore sometimes has gold blended in with it in its natural state, requiring refining to get the gold out. The converse also is true. The Nephites apparently hammered out plates out of this kind of ore rather than using purely refined gold for the purpose.

[Stone holm]

A mixture of gold and other metals, such as silver and/or copper; gold in its mineral state.

Copper in chemical ore and in free ore sometimes has gold blended in with it in its natural state, requiring refining to get the gold out. The converse also is true. The Nephites apparently hammered out plates out of this kind of ore rather than using purely refined gold for the purpose.

Surely they would have heated it. Wasn't gold relatively common in parts of the Americas. Having had some experience lugging around gold bullion, the Book of Mormon must have been fairly hefty. Did JS ever mention how heavy it was?

[blackstrap]

To my knowledge, no direct weighing was ever made but witnesses who hefted them gave various estimates of between 30 and 60 pounds.With a size of about 6 X 6 X 8 inches here are some samples. Solid gold would weigh about 190 pounds. Solid copper would weigh about 90 pounds . Solid aluminum would weigh about 28 pounds. Obviously the plates were not solid , but one would still have to be strong to carry them any distance. Pick up a 25 lb. barbell and run a couple of blocks with it. It will give you an appreciation for the struggles Joseph had on the night he retrieved the plates.

Edited May 24, 2013 by blackstrap

[Glenn101]

Surely they would have heated it. Wasn't gold relatively common in parts of the Americas. Having had some experience lugging around gold bullion, the Book of Mormon must have been fairly hefty. Did JS ever mention how heavy it was?

It is not certaion that the plates were actually made of gold. There has been speculation that the plates were actually an alloy of copper, gold,and silver. (as has been discussed previously). Tumbaga is such an alloy and was in widespread use in Mesoamerica at the time ofthe Spanish conquest.

Glenn

[ERayR]

Surely they would have heated it. Wasn't gold relatively common in parts of the Americas. Having had some experience lugging around gold bullion, the Book of Mormon must have been fairly hefty. Did JS ever mention how heavy it was?

Read this and follow the citations.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=aef870cb7de63110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

[Stone holm]

Read this and follow the citations.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=aef870cb7de63110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

Yeah that sounds like about the right heft if they were predominantly gold.

[MormonMason]

Surely they would have heated it. Wasn't gold relatively common in parts of the Americas. Having had some experience lugging around gold bullion, the Book of Mormon must have been fairly hefty. Did JS ever mention how heavy it was?

Yes, they did melt metal. Sometimes it is advantageous to melt the metals in the ore together as what we would call an alloy. It would add strength and lessen the weight thereby. Copper weighs less than gold. Adding copper lowers the molecular weight of the gold by replacing gold atoms with copper atoms.

I do not recall Joseph Smith mentioning its weight (he did mention dimensions) but I do know that Martin Harris did. He said it the plates weighed about somewhere from 40 to 60 pounds. That was another reason why Martin Harris believed from the beginning. He hefted the plates through the frock they were kept in, could feel their outline and hear the sound of metal, and he knew that even if they had been made of lead Joseph Smith had not credit enough at the time to obtain such a weight of even common lead. Harris felt he had a tangible artifact and that was evidence to him that there was no trickery.

Of course, Harris tested Joseph several times to try to catch him in fraud at the urging of his wife and neighbors all during the time he acted as scribe. That added all the more to the sincerity of his belief.

[Calm]

I already feel badly enough about being so far away from my books without charitable people like you rubbing it in. Thanks! Thanks a lot!

I know somewhat the same sorrow when I can't access the library in my head and it's sitting right there, just waiting for me to reach out.

Side issue: And now for some reason Internet isn't always there when reaching out so if anyone sees me missing something, if it's important PM me about it or just keep drawing it to my attention and hopefully life, the internet and the answer will coincide one of these days.

[Calm]

I think there was a slight attempt to move the goal post with this statement. A desire to redefine what I was saying in order to parse the issue in your favor.

It was always what I meant by my own comments. I am sorry for the miscommunication if this is not what you meant.

It took 5 mins to just the this post to be recognized so I have grave doubts about posting any more tonight, sorry...I have almost resorted to throwing my computer across the room, but instead went and did some clutter cleaning to work out my frustration...house is looking pretty good today.

[ERayR]

I know somewhat the same sorrow when I can't access the library in my head and it's sitting right there, just waiting for me to reach out.

As far as my memory I find the storage mechanism works fine but I do have a little trouble with retrieval.

Edited May 24, 2013 by ERayR

[MormonMason]

I know somewhat the same sorrow when I can't access the library in my head and it's sitting right there, just waiting for me to reach out.

...

Oh, I sometimes have that issue, too, making it doubly worse. Try as I might, I cannot recall the title of the book where I read what I mentioned and I am away from my books at home and will be for some time. I could die tomorrow and never see them again. That is really sad.

Of course, I should not be so attached to such things since I cannot take the actual books with me after this life anyway. But, then, my memory will be restored and I will remember everything I ever read, anyway. That gives me hope somewhat.

[ERayR]

Of course, I should not be so attached to such things since I cannot take the actual books with me after this life anyway. But, then, my memory will be restored and I will remember everything I ever read, anyway. That gives me hope somewhat.

I certainly hope that I will be allowed some selective amnesia.

[Calm]

Of course, I should not be so attached to such things since I cannot take the actual books with me after this life anyway.

I like the idea of my family and friends still having my books around after I am gone as it will be almost as good as talking directly to me (and in some cases probably better, ).

[Calm]

I certainly hope that I will be allowed some selective amnesia.

Amen...

[MormonMason]

I like the idea of my family and friends still having my books around after I am gone as it will be almost as good as talking directly to me (and in some cases probably better, ).

Most of my family have little interest in what I read and study, unfortunately. None have a real interest in studying ancient languages, although one of my children has gone on record that she wants all my Egyptian lexicons, Egyptian texts, and other related materials when I die. I am considering leaving most of my books to the Church History Library and to BYU's Ancient Studies Center, in Utah. I have a number of books that neither of the facilities have in their collections. I will just have to figure out a way to leave instructions and set aside funds to ship them, should I decide to adopt that scenario.

[Stone holm]

Do we know the dimensions of the box?

[MormonMason]

Do we know the dimensions of the box?

That is something I do not recall at the moment, but it is a worthwhile thing to determine. We know that the plates were about 6 inches by 8 inches by 6 inches. We also know that there were other relics in the box with the plates, such as a breastplate, the Interpreters/Urim and Thummim, and the sword of Laban. Now, we must estimate the size of the sword of Laban. Was the blade the length of other standard swords from the period (1.5 feet to 2 feet in length), or was it the length of the Vered-Jericho sword (iron-based blade of three feet in length)? That would at least give us an approximation of the length of the box. Of course, placing the sword diagonally and/or from top corner to bottom corner and from left to right of diagonal sides would shave off some inches from that total.

I would think somewhere around the length of at least two and a half feet to three feet might not be out of the question for the box, with about two feet in width and a foot and a half of depth to allow the presence of a breastplate with the plates and the other artifacts. If anyone knows of a source that mentions the dimensions, please share.

[Stone holm]

That is something I do not recall at the moment, but it is a worthwhile thing to determine. We know that the plates were about 6 inches by 8 inches by 6 inches. We also know that there were other relics in the box with the plates, such as a breastplate, the Interpreters/Urim and Thummim, and the sword of Laban. Now, we must estimate the size of the sword of Laban. Was the blade the length of other standard swords from the period (1.5 feet to 2 feet in length), or was it the length of the Vered-Jericho sword (iron-based blade of three feet in length)? That would at least give us an approximation of the length of the box. Of course, placing the sword diagonally and/or from top corner to bottom corner and from left to right of diagonal sides would shave off some inches from that total.

I would think somewhere around the length of at least two and a half feet to three feet might not be out of the question for the box, with about two feet in width and a foot and a half of depth to allow the presence of a breastplate with the plates and the other artifacts. If anyone knows of a source that mentions the dimensions, please share.

Do we know for a certainty that Joseph didn't destroy the box once the contents had been removed?

[MormonMason]

Do we know for a certainty that Joseph didn't destroy the box once the contents had been removed?

I have found no mention of such a thing. OK, so why do you feel that is a possibility?

[mrmendoza]

Indeed many of them are. But I've also seen young girls ostracized for having two piercings in each ear. I've seen members judge one another for drinking Coke or Pepsi.

"I knew a man, not of our faith, who when he visited a friend in the hospital, looked in the sign log at that hospital and not seeing his preachers name condemed the preacher for not doing his job! I know of a non-member visitor to my ward who told me after Sacrement service that he was distracted by the number of people obviously not paying attention to the talks and playing with their I-phones too much. And he is a non believer! I could give a lifetime of examples of judgemental people from both the Baptist churches that I attened as a child as well as from our Church today. There are always going to be people like that, in all churches . It seems to me thay you're the one doing the judgeing here!

Mike"

You've never heard that saying......? "You can judge the righteousness of a member by the temperature of their caffiene?"

That one used to go around in our stake quite often.

No, actually I've never heard that before! Mike

Edited May 26, 2013 by mrmendoza

[mrmendoza]

I see.

I certainly wouldn't say it was strictly an LDS attribute, but shared wrong-headedness is wrong nonetheless.

Additionally, although I believe most here will take issue with this, I think there is a type of "leadership worship" that occurs in the LDS faith. I've never seen an entire congregation stand at the entrance of a pastor in any of the other churches I've observed. Does it happen with the Pope? Can't remember........maybe.

IMO "revering" the Prophet of the Living God" is not leadership worship at all! We don't stand when a Bishop, stake president, or even other GAs enter, only for the Earthly president of the church! I can't speak for the RCC but I would be willing to bet that if he were to attend a local meeting somewhere, they would not only be standing, but they would be lining the roads leading up to the Church!

I once attended an area meeting of a well known soap and vitimin sales company (not Amway, but similer in its aprroach). they all stood up and cheered when a picture of their companys founder was unveiled! That was just a tad too much for me!

Mike