Stone Box

[Stone holm]

Yes, but having the originals would allow for an accurate translation that would put to rest some of the claims of mis-translation and additions or deletions made out of self-interest, don't you think?

Do you think it is even conceivable that there would be original manuscripts? And if there were such, people would still contend they reflected cultural contexts of the day. I sometimes wonder if I would have actually recognized Christ had I been a contemporary, my guess is no.

[SamIam]

... But the point is that any physical evidence of spiritual belief is faith promoting.

 

I can't decide if this statement is more like an Ouroboros or a mobius strip.

[Palerider]

Do you think it is even conceivable that there would be original manuscripts? And if there were such, people would still contend they reflected cultural contexts of the day. I sometimes wonder if I would have actually recognized Christ had I been a contemporary, my guess is no.

 

I sometimes wonder what all the Catholic church has in it's vaults, that it chooses to keep under wraps, but who knows......

 

I think many probably would make those contentions you mention, especially given the somewhat anti-christian wave that some are promoting in the U.S. today via separation of church and state.  

 

But for others they could verify authenticity and possibly solve a few doctrinal issues as well. 

 

Would you have recognized Christ as the Messiah? I don't know.

 

But if you had been there as He performed some of His miracles (which, if I recall, even He considered a witness of His calling), I think you would have at the very least, sat up and taken notice..... 

Edited December 1, 2013 by Palerider

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes, but having the originals would allow for an accurate translation that would put to rest some of the claims of mis-translation and additions or deletions made out of self-interest, don't you think?

Having the original iems world be be great, but would also not grant belief. I think we still have the, U&T as Hyrum told Joseph to get it to revel D&C 132, in Nauvoo in 1844. Edited December 1, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Stone holm]

Having the original iems world be be great, but would also not grant belief. I think we still have the, U&T as Hyrum told Joseph to get it to revel D&C 132, in Nauvoo in 1844.

No we do not have the Urim and Thummim, we do have one of the peep stones. Joseph was reluctant to disclose Section 132, but Hyrum insisted, at least that is my understanding.

[Palerider]

Having the original iems world be be great, but would also not grant belief. I think we still have the, U&T as Hyrum told Joseph to get it to revel D&C 132, in Nauvoo in 1844.

 

I agree. Belief in the Savior is only found through faith and prayer. However to even get out of the starting blocks there must be a certain amount of empirical adequacy.

 

Some people in the past didn't believe that King David actually existed until just recently, when they found his name on an ancient carving dated to his time period.

 

Whether one believes David was the great king that he was and chosen and favored of God, can be debated by some, but his existence can no longer be.

 

Unfortunately in the case of Mormon scripture I don't believe there has been one iota of positive, physical and independently verified evidence that it ever existed.

 

The case of the witnesses is fraught with problems. They can't even say where the Hill Cumorah is.

 

It's just sad........

[Tacenda]

I agree. Belief in the Savior is only found through faith and prayer. However to even get out of the starting blocks there must be a certain amount of empirical adequacy.

Some people in the past didn't believe that King David actually existed until just recently, when they found his name on an ancient carving dated to his time period.

Whether one believes David was the great king that he was and chosen and favored of God, can be debated by some, but his existence can no longer be.

Unfortunately in the case of Mormon scripture I don't believe there has been one iota of positive, physical and independently verified evidence that it ever existed.

The case of the witnesses is fraught with problems. They can't even say where the Hill Cumorah is.

It's just sad........

I dislike how some have discounted the Dead Sea Scrolls. Why? Does it threaten somehow? Edited December 2, 2013 by Tacenda

[Palerider]

I dislike how some have discounted the Dead Sea Scrolls. Why? Does it threaten somehow?

 

The interesting thing about the scrolls is that they have become the most ancient artifacts we have of the Old Testament writings and according to everything I have read, scholars are amazed at how accurate our current translation is when compared with the scroll writings. 

 

It is a testament to the carefulness of the ancient scribes in their desire to be accurate in transcribing the scriputres. It adds to the Old Testament's credibility as an ancient text.

 

Think of what the plates would do for the B of M. There really is no logical reason for not showing them to the world if they had indeed existed.

[Stone holm]

The interesting thing about the scrolls is that they have become the most ancient artifacts we have of the Old Testament writings and according to everything I have read, scholars are amazed at how accurate our current translation is when compared with the scroll writings. 

 

It is a testament to the carefulness of the ancient scribes in their desire to be accurate in transcribing the scriputres. It adds to the Old Testament's credibility as an ancient text.

 

Think of what the plates would do for the B of M. There really is no logical reason for not showing them to the world if they had indeed existed.

 

Except, there were probably many sets of gold plates in Meso and South America which got melted down to bullion by the Conquistadors -- I suspect we will some day see the plates, but this is not the day.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

No we do not have the Urim and Thummim, we do have one of the peep stones. Joseph was reluctant to disclose Section 132, but Hyrum insisted, at least that is my understanding.

We or the family had them at the time of his death. So someone has them.

[Stone holm]

We or the family had them at the time of his death. So someone has them.

 

Someone has it, but don't believe they are with mortals.

[Palerider]

We or the family had them at the time of his death. So someone has them.

 

The seer (or peep) stones that Joseph used for translation and that his family possesed at the time of his death are held by the church in "the vault". There have been a very few photos published of them.

 

Those stones, which later came to be called the "urim and thummim" were initially known only as seer stones.

 

The actual (or supposed) breast plate and stones suspended in silver bows were never seen by Emma or probably anyone else for that matter, although some may have claimed they saw them in vision or some such.

 

From Mormonstories:

 

[Palerider]

Except, there were probably many sets of gold plates in Meso and South America which got melted down to bullion by the Conquistadors -- I suspect we will some day see the plates, but this is not the day.

 

I don't know as there were "many" gold plates of the type Joseph describes, that were possessed by the Meso americans. I'd like to see a cfr on that, but there were many codices (note the Dresden) which were made of paper or papyra, that were burned by the Spanish.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Dresdensis

 

 

Plenty of gold artifacts were taken and melted down for Spain, but gold plates as records? Not sure there.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Palerider

[Stone holm]

The seer (or peep) stones that Joseph used for translation and that his family possesed at the time of his death are held by the church in "the vault". There have been a very few photos published of them.

 

Those stones, which later came to be called the "urim and thummim" were initially known only as seer stones.

 

The actual (or supposed) breast plate and stones suspended in silver bows were never seen by Emma or probably anyone else for that matter, although some may have claimed they saw them in vision or some such.

 

From Mormonstories:

 

I have never understood the peep stones as being the same as the Urim and Thummim . It was always my understanding that he employed both.

[teddyaware]

I agree. Belief in the Savior is only found through faith and prayer. However to even get out of the starting blocks there must be a certain amount of empirical adequacy.

 

Some people in the past didn't believe that King David actually existed until just recently, when they found his name on an ancient carving dated to his time period.

 

Whether one believes David was the great king that he was and chosen and favored of God, can be debated by some, but his existence can no longer be.

 

Unfortunately in the case of Mormon scripture I don't believe there has been one iota of positive, physical and independently verified evidence that it ever existed.

 

The case of the witnesses is fraught with problems. They can't even say where the Hill Cumorah is.

 

It's just sad........

I'm curious to know if you've read much of the Book of Mormon?

[Palerider]

I'm curious to know if you've read much of the Book of Mormon?

 

Seven times, cover to cover and as reference study ever since my mission in the early 70's.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Palerider

[Palerider]

I have never understood the peep stones as being the same as the Urim and Thummim . It was always my understanding that he employed both.

 

It was implied that he used both but in fact none of his scribes ever saw him use the "Nephite interpreters". All witnesses indicate the seer stone was used and later publications (including the D&C) were altered to insert the words "Urim and Thummim" to describe the seer or peep stone. 

 

The first time the U&T was used to refer to the Nephite interpreters was in 1833 when W.W. Phelps equated them in the first edition of the Evening and Morning Star. At this point in time the term became ambiguous as to what was actually being referred to.

 

Supposedly, the Nephite interpreters were taken away, after the loss of the 116 manuscript pages by Martin Harris, and the peep stone was used from that time forward, still noting that Martin's account of translation process is similar to all other scribes in referring only to the stone in the hat being used.

 

So go figure.....

Edited December 3, 2013 by Palerider

[Stone holm]

It was implied that he used both but in fact none of his scribes ever saw him use the "Nephite interpreters". All witnesses indicate the seer stone was used and later publications (including the D&C) were altered to insert the words "Urim and Thummim" to describe the seer or peep stone. 

 

The first time the U&T was used to refer to the Nephite interpreters was in 1833 when W.W. Phelps equated them in the first edition of the Evening and Morning Star. At this point in time the term became ambiguous as to what was actually being referred to.

 

Supposedly, the Nephite interpreters were taken away, after the loss of the 116 manuscript pages by Martin Harris, and the peep stone was used from that time forward, still noting that Martin's account of translation process is similar to all other scribes in referring only to the stone in the hat being used.

 

So go figure.....

 

Interesting...but we clearly do not have the Urim and Thummim....only the peep stone

[Palerider]

Interesting...but we clearly do not have the Urim and Thummim....only the peep stone

 

Right.

 

But some (many) may refer to the peep stone as the Urim and Thummim, so be very specific when having a conversation about it. Otherwise two people can walk away thinking they talked about one thing when in reality they were talking about two different items. 

[Stone holm]

Right.

 

But some (many) may refer to the peep stone as the Urim and Thummim, so be very specific when having a conversation about it. Otherwise two people can walk away thinking they talked about one thing when in reality they were talking about two different items.

Duly noted, I see them as two distinctly different items. It had been my understanding that there was more than one peep stone. It had always caused me to wonder why we never hear of a prophet since JS using one.

[Palerider]

Duly noted, I see them as two distinctly different items. It had been my understanding that there was more than one peep stone. It had always caused me to wonder why we never hear of a prophet since JS using one.

 

I believe this is a photo of the second one that was used.

 

Back in the eighties I think there were similar questions coming to the leadership regarding why the stones weren't being used or why the prophet wasn't doing any current translating. As I recall they quickly ended that questioning by stating that the majority of the "Restoration" was complete and further scripture of that nature was not called for at this time. 

 

[Tacenda]

I believe this is a photo of the second one that was used.

 

Back in the eighties I think there were similar questions coming to the leadership regarding why the stones weren't being used or why the prophet wasn't doing any current translating. As I recall they quickly ended that questioning by stating that the majority of the "Restoration" was complete and further scripture of that nature was not called for at this time. 

 

This looks like a petrified Peyote cactus.  I read an article a few years ago by someone that suggested JS used it along with Datura and Magic Mushrooms to help receive visions.  Which might have been done by a few people in his day.  This was another thing that led to my faith crisis.  I wrote Fair about it, and they said there is no proof that this occurred with JS.  I agree, not enough evidence to support it.       

 

 

.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote  "Known for its psychoactive properties when ingested, peyote is used worldwide as an entheogen and supplement to various transcendence practices, including meditation, psychonautics, and psychedelic psychotherapy. Peyote has a long history of ritualistic and medicinal use by indigenous Americans. It flowers from March through May, and sometimes as late as September. The flowers are pink, with thigmotactic anthers (like Opuntia).

[Palerider]

This looks like a petrified Peyote cactus.  I read an article a few years ago by someone that suggested JS used it along with Datura and Magic Mushrooms to help receive visions.  Which might have been done by a few people in his day.  This was another thing that led to my faith crisis.  I wrote Fair about it, and they said there is no proof that this occurred with JS.  I agree, not enough evidence to support it.       

 

 

.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote  "Known for its psychoactive properties when ingested, peyote is used worldwide as an entheogen and supplement to various transcendence practices, including meditation, psychonautics, and psychedelic psychotherapy. Peyote has a long history of ritualistic and medicinal use by indigenous Americans. It flowers from March through May, and sometimes as late as September. The flowers are pink, with thigmotactic anthers (like Opuntia).

 

Yeah, might be a bit of a stretch there.

 

I kind of wondered if the drilled holes represented phases of the moon, but I'm not sure.

[Tacenda]

Yeah, might be a bit of a stretch there.

 

I kind of wondered if the drilled holes represented phases of the moon, but I'm not sure.

Well, I believe it's a stretch that JS ingested Peyote to incur a vision.  But have always thought that the stone was dried Peyote.  Hopefully someone on here can let us know one way or the other.    

[Palerider]

Well, I believe it's a stretch that JS ingested Peyote to incur a vision.  But have always thought that the stone was dried Peyote.  Hopefully someone on here can let us know one way or the other.    

 

I really doubt that the stone was dried peyote Tacenda. The plant was so restricted by it's growth to the deep southwest and so little goods were being brought from the west at the time of Joseph Smith (aside from furs in the north) that I just can't see it making it's way to the New York area.

 

The first documented use of Peyote by non-whites was by Texas Rangers who had been captured by the Union near the end of the civil war. The Union soldiers wouldn't let them have any liquor so they soaked peyote buttons in water and drank it for a "good time".

 

Sorry! Should read "by non-natives"

Edited December 4, 2013 by Palerider