Stone Box

[Stone holm]

That is one way of looking at it. Is anyone else here aware of a quote that states that the individual stones were worked stones? I have little way of checking at the moment.

I am assuming they were not worked stones because of something someone else said above... the "worked stones" were just an assumption, probably incorrect, that I had made.

[EditorJack]

However, we're talking about hewn stone that has been cemented together as a box. I would think anyone finding such a box would not have kept it a secret......

If they are willing to fund 5 - 20 years of searching in Central America, why not spend two years going over one end of the Hill Cumorah with a fine tooth comb?

 

Who said it was "hewn"?

[AndyDnom]

Having served its purpose it was allowed to fall apart.

so it held up perfectly for 2000 years, then fell apart in 180 years?

[David T]

There's a fascinating theory that was presented recently that likened the plates to the Brother of Jared's stones, and to the Catholic/Orthodox concept of transubstantiation. It suggested that Joseph crafted the plates as an act of faith, with a promise that they would substantially become the ancient artifact.

 

IE, through his act of re-construction, they would be resurrected so to say - even if the original had been buried geographically elsewhere, they would be arising from the dust in a new form wherever and whenever the chosen prophet could access them. The paper suggesting this doesn't suggest that Joseph would have to have been a fraud, or even lying - he believed the process to truly be creating the ancient plates as much as Catholic priests truly believe the ordinary bread and wine becomes, substantially, the Body and Blood of Christ. Just as the Brother of Jared had to hew regular stones manually before God touched them and gave them sacred significance. Only those with spiritual eyes would see the original restored ancient substance of the plates. Others would just see newly constructed plates, not being able to see in them what Joseph the Seer could see. Hence his great joy on the Three Witnesses being shown a spiritual sight of the substance of what he could see.

 

While there's many reasons why most Latter-day Saints would not want to accept (or at the very least have a hard time accepting) such a paradigm, I think the paper itself is absolutely fascinating reading, and gives the only religiously faithful scenario I am aware of where Joseph may have constructed the physical plates, and still be a legitimate prophet bringing forth an actual historical record by the Gift and Power of God.

 

Here's the paper History and the Claims of Revelation: Joseph Smith and the Materialization of the Golden Plates, by Ann Taves.

Edited November 22, 2013 by David T

[Stone holm]

so it held up perfectly for 2000 years, then fell apart in 180 years?

 

Yes if it had been left undisturbed.

[Wiki Wonka]

Having served its purpose it was allowed to fall apart.

 

I suspect that the box was dug more into the side of the hill rather than down into the hill as paintings always show. Such an arrangement would be more likely to resist water damage by allowing the water to drain. Digging straight down into the hill, even with the cover stone, would likely have resulted in a hole full of water.

 

If the box was arranged this way, then when Joseph pried the cover stone off, it would have compromised the integrity of the box, and it would likely have eventually collapsed after being exposed to the elements. David Whitmer reported that he had seen the box, and that the stones had washed down the hill. The stones would have been taken away and used elsewhere (I think that Martin Harris reported this.)

 

As a basis for comparison, consider the original Nauvoo Temple. Only a few stones of the entire original structure remain identified today. All of the rest of the stones were hauled off after the tornado knocked it down and were likely used in other projects. This was a building that was considerably larger than the stone box, yet we have no idea where most of those stones are today. So, I'm not at all surprised that the stone box is long gone.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Wiki Wonka

[Palerider]

Who said it was "hewn"?

 

 

When one thinks of a "box" it is usually of something designed. Plus it is being "cemented" together. I think the church's illustrations attest to this line of thought. Or do you think the church should change the depiction to make it more accurate?

[Calm]

There's a fascinating theory that was presented recently that likened the plates to the Brother of Jared's stones, and to the Catholic/Orthodox concept of transubstantiation. It suggested that Joseph crafted the plates as an act of faith, with a promise that they would substantially become the ancient artifact.

Does she discuss if there actually existed the ancient artifact or not and if the Book of Mormon reflects that or not.  No time to read it right now...

 

Personally, I can see appealing to that theory only if one wants to reject the historicity of the BoM itself.  If JS was given an actual ancient text about ancient people by the power of God, that is a miracle and if one miracle is accepted, why not another?

Edited November 22, 2013 by calmoriah

[Palerider]

There's a fascinating theory that was presented recently that likened the plates to the Brother of Jared's stones, and to the Catholic/Orthodox concept of transubstantiation. It suggested that Joseph crafted the plates as an act of faith, with a promise that they would substantially become the ancient artifact.

 

IE, through his act of re-construction, they would be resurrected so to say - even if the original had been buried geographically elsewhere, they would be arising from the dust in a new form wherever and whenever the chosen prophet could access them. The paper suggesting this doesn't suggest that Joseph would have to have been a fraud, or even lying - he believed the process to truly be creating the ancient plates as much as Catholic priests truly believe the ordinary bread and wine becomes, substantially, the Body and Blood of Christ. Just as the Brother of Jared had to hew regular stones manually before God touched them and gave them sacred significance. Only those with spiritual eyes would see the original restored ancient substance of the plates. Others would just see newly constructed plates, not being able to see in them what Joseph the Seer could see. Hence his great joy on the Three Witnesses being shown a spiritual sight of the substance of what he could see.

 

While there's many reasons why most Latter-day Saints would not want to accept (or at the very least have a hard time accepting) such a paradigm, I think the paper itself is absolutely fascinating reading, and gives the only religiously faithful scenario I am aware of where Joseph may have constructed the physical plates, and still be a legitimate prophet bringing forth an actual historical record by the Gift and Power of God.

 

Here's the paper History and the Claims of Revelation: Joseph Smith and the Materialization of the Golden Plates, by Ann Taves.

 

 

 

 

Yes, this would be a stretch for most of us. Particularly because Joseph himself seems to be so literal in his telling of the story.

[Wiki Wonka]

 

 

When one thinks of a "box" it is usually of something designed. Plus it is being "cemented" together. I think the church's illustrations attest to this line of thought. Or do you think the church should change the depiction to make it more accurate?

 

I think that this depiction is some artist's dream - the box is impractical, and it is way too small to fit even the plates themselves, much less the other items that were in it. How exactly did Moroni carve those stones into such nice rectangular shapes? I place the accuracy of this image down there with paintings of Joseph and Oliver translating together with the gold plates sitting uncovered on the table between them.

 

Oh, and lets not even think about what the roots of that tree are going to do to the box over the next thousand (or even ten) or so years....

Edited November 22, 2013 by Wiki Wonka

[Calm]

I place the accuracy of this image down there with paintings of Joseph and Oliver translating together with the gold plates sitting uncovered on the table between them.

 

Oh, and lets not even think about what the roots of that tree are going to do to the box over the next thousand or so years....

I think it's worse as you've pointed out it is physically impossible as opposed to the other paintings at least being possible but we just don't have any reports of them doing it that way and thus there is no historical reason to believe that was how it was done.

[Wiki Wonka]

I think it's worse as you've pointed out it is physically impossible as opposed to the other paintings at least being possible but we just don't have any reports of them doing it that way and thus there is no historical reason to believe that was how it was done.

 

I bought a new house in 2002. A small tree was planted next to the driveway. Within 8 years that formerly tiny tree had lifted up the entire concrete walkway next to my house by two inches (until I cut that tree down). Never underestimate the power of wind, rain, snow, plant life and mother nature in general to erase the works of Man as quickly as possible.

[David T]

Does she discuss if there actually existed the ancient artifact or not and if the Book of Mormon reflects that or not.  No time to read it right now...

 

Personally, I can see appealing to that theory only if one wants to reject the historicity of the BoM itself.  If JS was given actual ancient text about ancient people by the power og God, that is a miracle and if one miracle is accepted, why not another.

 

For the author, I don't think the reality of an earlier ancient record was the point as much as presenting an authentic and meaningful (and fascinatingly consistent) religious experience and paradigm for the scenario, proposed by some JS scholars, of Joseph manually and physically crafting the plates, and yet still having a firm conviction of their authentic material religious significance, to the same degree that Catholic Priests knowingly bring undeniably ordinary bread and wine to the table, and then following a religious experience, authentically believe the elements that still appear as bread and wine to be, likewise, authentically and substantially and literally the Body of Jesus Christ.

 

Whether or not one ultimately tends to agree with the author's proposal and conclusions, I think the ideas presented in the paper are in and of themselves definitely worth reading and digesting. It's truly a fascinating, and thought provoking presentation. I say this as someone who does believe the Book of Mormon expresses an authentically ancient record.

 

There's a fascinating conceptual religious parallel to the image of mankind being crafted 'from the dust of the earth', and then having the breath of life/spirit inspired into it from a pre-existing source to make the composite become a Living Soul.

 

Although I love the Death and Resurrection concept - the inspired message first delivered spiritually to the ancient prophets, then it was crafted.materialized/given a body on the ancient metal plates, was buried/died, and there was a period of separation, and then, in an act of manual Resurrection, the Body of the Plates was reconstructed under divine decree, and the Spirit of its contents was Restored.

 

I don't think one has to accept it as fact to acknowledge there's something nifty and meaningful about the proposal.

Edited November 22, 2013 by David T

[Calm]

But why would someone assume that he constructed the plates?  Is there any evidence that he did?  Any reports that they looked like modern constructions, etc.?  The Catholic doctrine has a reason why it was created based on interpretation of existing scripture, it did not appear out of someone's musings on 'how many ways can we imagine JS might encounter ancient texts without reference to reports' or some other similar question.

 

Does she claim they were golden or does she assume they were constructed along the lines that Vogel does?

 

Sorry about not reading it, but I am popping in and out resting between chores and that is not conducive for me reading articles so I appreciate you willing to deal with me asking about it when I should just read it.  It is selfish of me to want to know the answers to my questions without putting the work into it...yet.  If it is annoying, don't feel obligated.  I promise to read it when I have an extended time and attention to do so.  

Edited November 22, 2013 by calmoriah

[Palerider]

I think that this depiction is some artist's dream - the box is impractical, and it is way too small to fit even the plates themselves, much less the other items that were in it. How exactly did Moroni carve those stones into such nice rectangular shapes? I place the accuracy of this image down there with paintings of Joseph and Oliver translating together with the gold plates sitting uncovered on the table between them.

 

Oh, and lets not even think about what the roots of that tree are going to do to the box over the next thousand (or even ten) or so years....

 

 

I absolutely agree.

 

But having some personal insight as to the process for having artwork accepted by the general authorities, I can tell you that if anything had been "amiss" as to how they wanted this portrayed it would have gone back to the artist for correction and then subsequent approval.

 

So, ridiculous as it may seem to us......the general authorities approve of the depiction or narrative and thereby the design of the box.

[David T]

But why would someone assume that he constructed the plates?  Is there any evidence that he did?  Any reports that they looked like modern constructions, etc.?  The Catholic doctrine has a reason why it was created based on interpretation of existing scripture, it did not appear out of someone's musings on 'how many ways can we imagine JS might encounter ancient texts without reference to reports' or some other similar question.

 

Does she claim they were golden or does she assume they were constructed along the lines that Vogel does?

 

Sorry about not reading it, but I am popping in and out resting between chores and that is not conducive for me reading articles so I appreciate you willing to deal with me asking about it when I should just read it.  It is selfish of me to want to know the answers to my questions without putting the work into it...yet.  If it is annoying, don't feel obligated.  I promise to read it when I have an extended time and attention to do so.  

 

The intro points out that too often, there tend to be two camps: 1) Those who because they believe in Joseph's prophetic career, they begin with assumption that there really must have been authentic golden plates  2) Critics who believe because Joseph was not authentically presenting divine commandments, therefore there must not have been any plates, and therefore Joseph was an intentional fraudster.

 

She notes she believes there can- and should be - room for more nuance, even more subtle and generous than Vogel's pious fraud approach.

 

Here's a selection presenting the premise. I'll let you read the rest of the paper to get the rest of your answers

 

Explanations of the gold plates to date tend to presuppose an either/or choice: ancient golden plates either existed or they did not. If they existed, then Smith was who he claimed to be. If they did not and Smith knew it, then he must have consciously deceived his followers in order to convince them that they existed. Alternatively, if Smith believed there were plates when in fact there were not, then he was deluded. Although some non-believing historians have chosen to bracket the contentious issue of the golden plates, others – both non-Mormon and ex-Mormon -- forthrightly acknowledge their belief that there were no actual gold plates; indeed, this is so obvious to some historians that they are taken aback when they discover that many Mormon intellectuals believe there were.

 

In keeping with these either/or choices, non-believing contemporaries of the Smiths and non-believing historians in the present typically explain Smith’s claims regarding the plates in terms of deception, fantasy, or a prank that got out of hand. Within two years of the alleged

removal of the plates from the hill in 1827, the Smith’s neighbor, Peter Ingersoll, claimed that the box that supposedly contained the plates really contained only sand (EMD 2:44-45). Historian Fawn Brodie (1995:41), relying on this source, suggests that: “Perhaps in the

beginning Joseph never intended his stories of the golden plates to be taken so seriously, but once the masquerade had begun, there was no point at which he could call a halt. Since his own family believed him, … why should not the world?” Historian Dan Vogel (2004:xi) views the materiality of the plates as “the most compelling evidence” for “conscious misdirection” on Smith’s part. Speculating that Smith most likely made the plates himself out of tin, Vogel characterizes the recovery of the plates as a mix of deception and fantasy, the sort of “pious

fraud” that he associates with shamans and magicians.2

 

Skeptics in my view have been too quick to jump from the assumption that there were no plates to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was either deluded or a fraud. In doing so, they sidestep the most interesting (and challenging) questions. For the sake of argument, I want to

assume that there were no plates or at least no ancient golden plates and at the same time take seriously believers’ claim that Smith was not a fraud. If we start with those premises, then we have to explain how the plates might have become real for Smith as well as his followers. The challenge, however, is not just to explain how they might have become real for Smith, but how they might have become real for him in some non-delusory sense.3 This shift in premises forces us to consider a greater range of explanatory possibilities and has the potential to expand our understanding of the way that new religious movements emerge.

[Tiki]

I absolutely agree.

 

But having some personal insight as to the process for having artwork accepted by the general authorities, I can tell you that if anything had been "amiss" as to how they wanted this portrayed it would have gone back to the artist for correction and then subsequent approval.

 

So, ridiculous as it may seem to us......the general authorities approve of the depiction or narrative and thereby the design of the box.

 

Fascinating.

[Calm]

So as far as I can tell right now, the only value of the argument is perhaps the POV of "let's just assume there were plates, but we don't need to talk about the ultimate source of those plates---we can assume the ultimate source is ancient or at least inspired by God like believers do or modern and uninspired like nonbelievers do, instead we can just focus on what came of Joseph's story of the plates and what he did with them".

 

If so, I don't see how that is any better than simply saying "let's ignore the plate question altogether and simply start at what Joseph presented as coming from the plates".

 

 

 

I want to assume that there were no plates or at least no ancient golden plates and at the same time take seriously believers’ claim that Smith was not a fraud.

 

 

 

I really don't see how this argument takes us any further into understanding Joseph and what happened based on what we really know.  It is just another speculation whose only value can be told if we can find some sort of evidence to support it.

 

But I haven't read the article yet, so I am open to being wrong.

[Calm]

the general authorities approve of the depiction or narrative and thereby the design of the box.

Or they just don't care about that aspect of the depiction; indifference is different than approval and one can be indifferent about some parts while still approving the whole.

Edited November 22, 2013 by calmoriah

[Palerider]

Or they just don't care about that aspect of the depiction; indifference is different than approval and one can be indifferent about some parts while still approving the whole.

 

I can tell you they are quite picky.........

[Wiki Wonka]

 

So, ridiculous as it may seem to us......the general authorities approve of the depiction or narrative and thereby the design of the box.

 

Uh...no. It's just a piece of art. More likely they just looked at the picture and thought, "Yeah, there's a box in the ground."

[Palerider]

Uh...no. It's just a piece of art. More likely they just looked at the picture and thought, "Yeah, there's a box in the ground."

 

 

Sorry, you are quite mistaken.

[Palerider]

Here is a side by side comparison of a Carl Bloch painting used on page 54 of the Dec. 2011 Ensign.

 

You will notice the angels have had their wings removed and most interestingly, they have also been given a modest "temple worthy" cap sleeve added to their angelic robes...... 

 

Picky? Obsessive? Detail oriented? I think this speaks for itself.........

 

 

 

[Tacenda]

Here is a side by side comparison of a Carl Bloch painting used on page 54 of the Dec. 2011 Ensign.

 

You will notice the angels have had their wings removed and most interestingly, they have also been given a modest "temple worthy" cap sleeve added to their angelic robes...... 

 

Picky? Obsessive? Detail oriented? I think this speaks for itself.........

 

 

 

This is something I'm sure even the church presidency would cringe when seeing.  I'll bet the person that did this is fired, or should be.   

[Palerider]

This is something I'm sure even the church presidency would cringe when seeing.  I'll bet the person that did this is fired, or should be.   

 

 

On the contrary Tacenda, I'm sure the First Presidency APPROVED this modification. Probably asked for it...........