Stone Box

[Questing Beast]

Grace is real, so are works as fruit of belief. Neither is exclusive. Why some people must have it all one way or the other has always mystified....

[cursor]

Of interest:

Ancient Burials of Metal Documents in Stone Boxes, H. Curtis Wright

"This paper is an expanded version of a paper presented earlier at the Library History Seminar VI in March 1980. It deals with the persistence, for something like three thousand years, of a strange documentary custom of the Mesopotamian kings, which was distinct and separate from the scribal tradition of clay-tablet writing associated with Assurbanipal. This custom led to numerous regal burials of metallic documents (often encased in stone boxes or other special containers), which were concealed in the foundations or other inaccessible recesses of temples and palaces. The discovery of metal documents beneath the foundations of the Serapis Temple, which housed the Serapeum Library at Alexandria, has also established an archaeological connection between the building practices of the Ptolemies and the Mesopotamian kings."

[Tacenda]

Grace is real, so are works as fruit of belief. Neither is exclusive. Why some people must have it all one way or the other has always mystified....

Definitely, works that come naturally, are definitely in order. When someone has faith in the work Jesus did, they work to show gratitude. The athiest also work because they have inner compass, like most. The LDS have a heavier yoke to carry then most, because they feel the need to be Saviors, so don't get me wrong, I love them, and still don't know exactly. Edited May 19, 2013 by Tacenda

[Palerider]

Grace is real, so are works as fruit of belief. Neither is exclusive. Why some people must have it all one way or the other has always mystified....

[Palerider]

I think that is Brigham's opinion; it certainly is not the Church's position. Why would you think it would be? If someone believes in Christ as the Son of God and seeks to follow him as their Savior and Redeemer, then they are as Christian as anyone can be. Let me be clear, there is one Savior and there is no intermediary between him and an individual ever. No prophet, no teacher, no apostle, not another single human is a filter or intermediary for the Savior. Others may teach us, but nothing they say will have any significant impact on an individual's life without the intervention of the Holy Spirit. No teacher provides us a complete understanding of Jesus; that only comes by being a disciple that constantly seeks all truth. You have to be just as careful about a narrow perception of a LDS as you project on others their narrow view of other followers of truth.

"Why would you think it would be?"

Because your guy said it, I suppose.....?

I was waiting for the "That's his opinion" pretext that allows the LDS to avoid responsibility for what their leadership has said in the past.

The fact is that Brigham was prophet and president of the LDS faith for 30 years and had a huge impact in setting the tone and creating the culture of the LDS church.

I wonder if you had been a member alive at that time if you would have been so openly outspoken in your opinion about bro. Brighams teachings? I doubt you would have been so courageous.

And if you had been that brave, I doubt you would have been a member very long..........

[rodheadlee]

I find it curious, the opposition to finding factual support for claims made by JS. The reason it perplexes me is because even Jesus said, "³⁷ If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

³⁸ But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." (John 10:37,38)

And to Thomas he showed himself as a proof of his resurrection. So clearly Jesus isn't opposed to verifying truth claims with facts that support them.

The Work of the Son is before you, it's called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Come and partake of the gathering of Israel.

[Palerider]

I never liked those scriptures about doing things first in order to get the blessings, I want to do them because it's the right thing to do. And God is not beholden to us ever, he's in charge,

[Palerider]

Of interest:

Ancient Burials of Metal Documents in Stone Boxes, H. Curtis Wright

"This paper is an expanded version of a paper presented earlier at the Library History Seminar VI in March 1980. It deals with the persistence, for something like three thousand years, of a strange documentary custom of the Mesopotamian kings, which was distinct and separate from the scribal tradition of clay-tablet writing associated with Assurbanipal. This custom led to numerous regal burials of metallic documents (often encased in stone boxes or other special containers), which were concealed in the foundations or other inaccessible recesses of temples and palaces. The discovery of metal documents beneath the foundations of the Serapis Temple, which housed the Serapeum Library at Alexandria, has also established an archaeological connection between the building practices of the Ptolemies and the Mesopotamian kings."

This is a factual and demonstrably true way of preserving writings. Who could argue with that?

Now, if only Joseph's....er...Moroni's box had not washed down the hill.

I hate it when that happens.........

[volgadon]

Why are there over 4,000 corrections made to the BoM if Joseph was to have seen each word on parchment and it would stay until his transcriber wrote it down right.

Are you serious? You do realise that the vast majority of changes have to do with punctuation, spelling, and versification. I think I could find just as many, if not more, by comparing the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible to the earliest Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts. The cantillation marks alone would do the trick.

[volgadon]

That's exactly the difference between non LDS Christian and LDS Christian, works and no works. You hit the nail on the head.

Not really, because you would have to exclude Orthodox churches from non-LDS Christians.

[volgadon]

We have the Dead Sea Scrolls, why weren't they taken back?

For the same reason that the 1980s edition of the BoM hasn't been taken back.

[blackstrap]

Well, we LDS have the little matter of Section 82 of the D & C wherein we are told that the Lord is bound by our obedience. The Old Testament is replete with examples of prophets who gave arguments to the Lord in order to change His plans. So , perhaps we will not say that He is beholden to us ,but He , Himself has shown a willingness to adjust to our desires.

[volgadon]

Well, we LDS have the little matter of Section 82 of the D & C wherein we are told that the Lord is bound by our obedience. The Old Testament is replete with examples of prophets who gave arguments to the Lord in order to change His plans. So , perhaps we will not say that He is beholden to us ,but He , Himself has shown a willingness to adjust to our desires.

You are right. It basically means that there are rules, and that God plays by those rules.

[omni]

Are you serious? You do realise that the vast majority of changes have to do with punctuation, spelling, and versification. I think I could find just as many, if not more, by comparing the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible to the earliest Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts. The cantillation marks alone would do the trick.

If the translation occurred as multiple eye witness accounts say it occurred than there should not have been 4000 mistakes, grammatical or otherwise. Witnesses reported that when the words would appear on the seer stone Joseph would read them aloud and they would not disappear until the scribe had written them down correctly. How does this allow for so many errors? While most of the changes were grammatical or punctuational there were some doctrinal changes. Several corrections were made after the original 1830 edition adding "Son of" to scriptures to indicate our current belief of the Godhead rather than the trinity. Below is an example:

1830 edition-

1 Nephi 3, p. 25 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Eternal Father!

Current edition-

1 Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Son of the Eternal Father!

Put this together with the fact that early first vision accounts Joseph reporting seeing one being instead of two, one can quite easily come to the conclusion that early on Joseph was still trying to figure out his doctrine on the Godhead.

[blackstrap]

I wonder where Joseph came up with the idea of a stone box containing metal plates in the first place. Oh yes, I forgot, it was common knowledge at the time about that practice of the Mesopotamian Kings. He just had to look it up in that world class library at Palmyra.

[volgadon]

If the translation occurred as multiple eye witness accounts say it occurred than there should not have been 4000 mistakes, grammatical or otherwise. Witnesses reported that when the words would appear on the seer stone Joseph would read them aloud and they would not disappear until the scribe had written them down correctly. How does this allow for so many errors? While most of the changes were grammatical or punctuational there were some doctrinal changes. Several corrections were made after the original 1830 edition adding "Son of" to scriptures to indicate our current belief of the Godhead rather than the trinity. Below is an example:

1830 edition-

1 Nephi 3, p. 25 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Eternal Father!

Current edition-

1 Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Son of the Eternal Father!

Put this together with the fact that early first vision accounts Joseph reporting seeing one being instead of two, one can quite easily come to the conclusion that early on Joseph was still trying to figure out his doctrine on the Godhead.

Changes, not mistakes. There is a difference, not least of which is the evolving nature of English grammar conventions. I am not denying that there are significant changes, but claiming thousands of them is a transparent attempt to maximise the negative impact on the audience encountering the claims. It (the source, not Tacenda) is, frankly, dishonest.

As for the change you listed, it is a complex issue. However, what you seem to ignore is that contexts change. Eevn if we assume a divine photoreproduction, Joseph was also tasked with clarifying meaning.

[Palerider]

I wonder where Joseph came up with the idea of a stone box containing metal plates in the first place. Oh yes, I forgot, it was common knowledge at the time about that practice of the Mesopotamian Kings. He just had to look it up in that world class library at Palmyra.

From Spalding's Manuscript story:

Near the west Bank of the Coneaught River there are the remains of an ancient fort. As I was walking and forming various conjectures respecting the character situation and numbers of those people who far exceeded the present race of Indians in works of art & inginuety

I hapned to tread on a flat Stone

. This was at a small distance from the fort: & it lay on the top of a small mound of Earth exactly horizontal -- The face of it had a singular appearance I discovered a number of characters which appeared to me to be letters -- but so much effaced by the ravages of time, that I could not read the inscription.

With the assistance of a leaver I raised the Stone

-- But you may easily conjecture my astonishment when I discovered that its ends and sides rested on Stones & that it was designed as a cover to an artificial cave. -- I found on examining that its Sides were lined with * * * built in a connical form with * * * down -- & that it was about eight feet deep . . . . Here I noticed a big flat Stone fixed in the form of a doar. I immediately tore it down & Lo a cavity within the wall presented itself . . . . Within this cavity

I found an earthan Box with a cover which shut it perfectly tite

-- The Box was two feet in length one & half in breadth & one and three inches in diameter. . . . When I had removed the cover

I found that it contained twenty eight sheets of parchment . . . appeared to be manuscripts written in an eligant hand with Roman Letters & in the Latin Language

. They were written on a variety of Subjects. But the Roll which principally attracted my attention contained a history of the authors life & that part of America which extends along the great Lakes & the waters of the Missisippy. (Spalding 1910, 1-2)

In his official history, Joseph Smith gave this description of the discovery of the plates:

Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth. Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them. (JS-H 1:51-52)

Is there any verifiable connection between Spalding and Smith? Nope

But it does make one wonder...........

There are SO MANY such coincidences in Joseph's life. He seems to be the coincidence king.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Palerider

[blackstrap]

I put myself in Joseph's position. I am an unschooled ,unsophisticated but serious lad who desires to know what church to join. I go to a secluded place and kneel to pray. After an extraordinary feeling of fear and foreboding I see the presence of two personages , one of which introduces the other and from then on I receive instruction from the one personage who seems to control the situation and answer my questions. After some time passes I write what has happened. What will stand out about the experience? What will be the theme of my writing? Will the experience continue to clarify over time as I remember and relive it? Those who have had vivid NDEs have shown just such an 'evolution ' of memories. As for the BoM translation/transmission , I would be astounded had there NOT been some changes/clarifications to the manuscript. It is highly unlikely that anyone could copy 500+ pages verbatim without reference to the past writings many times over .Just review how many fixes are needed to a paragraph typed on this forum.

[Robert F. Smith]

From Wikipedia:

LDS-funded archaeology [edit]

In 1955 Thomas Ferguson, a Latter Day Saint and the founder of the New World Archaeological Foundation, with five years of funding from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), began to dig throughout Mesoamerica for evidence of the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. In a 1961 newsletter Ferguson predicted that although nothing had been found, the Book of Mormon cities would be found within 10 years.^{[citation needed]} In 1972, Christian scholar Hal Hougey wrote to Ferguson questioning the progress given the stated timetable in which the cities would be found.^[26] Replying to Hougey as well as secular and non-secular requests, Ferguson wrote in a letter dated June 5, 1972: "Ten years have passed .... I had sincerely hoped that Book-of-Mormon cities would be positively identified within 10 years — and time has proved me wrong in my anticipation."^[27]

During the period of 1959–1961, NWAF colleague Dee Green was editor of the BYU Archaeological Society Newsletter and had an article from it published in the summer of 1969 edition of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, pp 76–78 in which he acknowledged that the NWAF findings did not back up the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. After this article and another six years of fruitless search, Thomas Ferguson published a 29-page paper in 1975 entitled Written Symposium on Book-of-Mormon Geography: Response of Thomas S. Ferguson to the Norman & Sorenson Papers where he concluded, "I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography".^[28] In referring to his own paper, Ferguson wrote a 20 February 1976 letter to Mr & Mrs H.W. Lawrence in which he stated: "The real implication of the paper is that you can't set the Book-of-Mormon geography down anywhere — because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archeology. I should say — what is in the ground will never conform to what is in the book."^[29]

^{I guess I just assumed that with a minimum of 5 years of funding from the church, but probably more like 20 years, that the million dollar mark would have been passed. I'm more than open to anyone who can give me an accurate amount.}

The straw-man Wikipedia entry is false. The LDS Church did not give any money to the NWAF in order to prove the Book of Mormon true. In fact, before giving any funds, the LDS Church required that formal documents be signed making it clear that they would fund standard archeology without any reference to the Book of Mormon. The NWAF always followed that requirement and never conducted any Book of Mormon research of any kind. Indeed, most of the professional archeologists leading excavations funded by the NWAF were non-Mormon archeologists of note. During the time that the NWAF has been in existence, including its ties with BYU, it has been the foremost excavator in Mesoamerica, and its professional reports are highly regarded worldwide.

As for Tom Ferguson, he was a California lawyer with no training or experience in archeology (and no stomach for it either). His 1975 contribution to the Written Symposium (in which I was a participant) was a 29-page pastiche of cut & paste nonsense which would have garnered an "F" in freshman English class. He embarrassed himself. He did not organize or publish that Symposium. In other comments made by him, it seems clear that his denouement came with his loss of faith in the Book of Abraham -- via misinformation.

Anyone wanting to know how Mesoamerican archeology and the Book of Mormon stack up in comparison will need to read Prof. John L. Sorenson's forthcoming magnum opus, Mormon's Codex (Deseret, Aug 2013). Sorenson was there with Ferguson in Mesoamerica before the founding of the NWAF.

[blackstrap]

"Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel" comes to mind when reading your post ,Palerider.

[volgadon]

With the assistance of a leaver I raised the Stone

Unless you are going to claim that Archimedes was the prototype for Joseph's account, how else would one have raised a heavy stone?

[blackstrap]

Unless you are going to claim that Archimedes was the prototype for Joseph's account, how else would one have raised a heavy stone?

Oh,you know Volgadon, just say a few of those 'magic' words !!!

[ERayR]

That's exactly the difference between non LDS Christian and LDS Christian, works and no works. You hit the nail on the head.

There is no difference. They all preach the rewards of heaven for adhering to their creeds, The adherents follow the creeds(works) in expectation of rewards (heaven), The differences are in the requirements of each sect to receive the rewards of heaven, All else is strictly semantics. It all comes down to whose truth claims one chooses to believe.

[Palerider]

"Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel" comes to mind when reading your post ,Palerider.

This is no surprise considering the source.

At least Robert F. Smith has the wherewithal to make an intelligent and authoritative (from his perspective) response.

[cursor]

I asked of my father, John L. Sorenson:

"I just read this: [ link ]

For how long have scholars known that ancient records were at times stored in stone boxes? "

He replied:

"I have not had the patience to deal with this vast literature on the Old World, although I knew C. Wright well (he is now deceased). I would guess at least widely recognized by 1920 and by a few scholars a half century before. In American archaeology, however, about 50 years ago, with a big 'maybe.' I suspect I am the only person to construe the discovery as such a thing. From Monte Alban, Oaxaca, as I recall, I saw a photograph maybe 35 years ago of a stone cist (a stone-slab-lined enclosure located in a ruined building) in which an inscribed, broken stela was lying at an angle. I have forgotten where that photo was, although I think I made some reference to it in some early unpublished paper. I supposed that this was an accidental, rather than a deliberate, case of a document 'placed' in a 'stone box.' I have seen nothing comparable since."

Edited May 20, 2013 by cursor