Mormon Economics

[Avatar4321]

I don't know that capitalism is Mormon economics, other than it's natural law. It's what happens when people are free to make their own deals.

If anything is Mormon economics it would be this: If you keep the Commandments, you will prosper in the land. I've found that studying economics, this is true. When people are following the Lord, the economy is growing. When they dont, we have economic slowdowns.

[Stone holm]

I believe that the Church had already dissolved the United Order colonies because of the anti polygamy confiscation threats when they issued the proclamation favoring collaboration over competition. Am looking for the link. Some of the memes posted, however, brings up a related question namely what one does with a capitalist economy which is currently utilizing communist labor. That would seem like the most unChristian hybrid possible. But perhaps I do not understand, have always been baffled by Red China being our largest foreign creditor. We seem to favor atheistic communist labor and credit over nominally Christian socialist democratic credit and labor. Not to mention our occasionally rocky relationship with democratic India.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know that capitalism is Mormon economics, other than it's natural law. It's what happens when people are free to make their own deals.

If anything is Mormon economics it would be this: If you keep the Commandments, you will prosper in the land. I've found that studying economics, this is true. When people are following the Lord, the economy is growing. When they dont, we have economic slowdowns.

Unfortunately no one is free to make their own deals. We are all constrained by the unequal acquisition of power and money.

I'm all for keeping the Commandments. But the only rule that applies to economics is The Golden Rule. The rule that states that those that have the gold make the rules.

[Stone holm]

If you don't know the difference between Socialism and Naziism God help us all. Moreover Hitler was not an Atheist he was a Roman Catholic

BTW the US and the USSR were allies during all of WW2, and it is ONLY the US that has EVER dropped Atomic Bombs in war.

You guys are going to get this thread locked under Godwin's law if you keep making those references.

[thesometimesaint]

You guys are going to get this thread locked under Godwin's law if you keep making those references.

It would be a pity if such were to happen. However I didn't use Hitler to stake my claim. Just opposite I used that 20th Century German tyrant as a foil to the claim.

[Stone holm]

I am not certain that I would agree that individualistic capitalism is the natural tendency amongst free men, if it was it would have been more prolific sooner. The natural tendency amongst mankind is to organize into tribes or clans and to organize your economy similarly. That suggests a tribal community based economy conducting trade with other communities. Which seems closer to what The Lord had in mind than the rugged individualism of law of the jungle capitalism. In order to avoid some of pejoratively associated with the various bastardized isms I suppose we might call it communitarianism ... Except the spell checker recognized that as a word so it may already be corrupted.

[thesometimesaint]

Agreed. That great American Moses Brigham Young didn't send out individuals to settle the west. He sent communities.

[teddyaware]

Given the propensity of talks given by GA's and Prophets in the run up to WWII and afterwards during the Cold War to condemn Socialism, what is the scriptural support for Capitalism as opposed to Socialism, or is there some other "ism" which should draw our allegiance? In asking this question, I am excluding Karl Marx's general atheistic attitude towards religion in the Communist Manifesto.

Government under the Constitution of the United States called for the Federal Government, except for the exercise of a few limited enumerated powers, to stay out of our lives and allow the people to live their lives as they chose. The central government didn't even have the authority to levy income taxes on the people.

Under the Constitution, if there are a large number of people who want to band together to live life on an egalitarian/utopian model, they are free to do so. The only stipulation being they have to create their utopia as private citizens, with no coercive secular governmental power to compel anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Under this concept, liberal folks can be just as lberal as they want to be, but they're expected to do it on there own, without governmental power to compel others not so minded to participate in their experiment

Under the same Constitution, if a group of private citizens wants to work together to create an association based on the incentives of free enterprise and the accumulation of temporal wealth, they are free to do so; but they're expected to do it solely on their own without any help, funding, guidance or control from the government.

Under the Constitution, if a group of private citizens wants to work together to create a broad-based and widely available system of health care and health insurance to better their lives of the people at large who were willing to participate, they are free to do so. But they have to do it on their own, without any input or funding of any kind from the government, other than to be sure the freedoms delineated in the Bill of Rights are not being infringed.

But rather than follow the path of freedom and independence from coercive power, most people today seem to have been persuaded we children of God aren't capable of creating a merciful and just society on our own without the funding, input and control of government overseers. For the Latter-day Saints this state of affairs is particularly ironic, because we have been given authority and power of God to build a truly just, merciful and prosperous society called Zion. Yet we seem to trust in the arms of flesh of those who have no such power and authority to build Zion, but who have instead nearly shipwrecked our civilization into the jagged rocks and shoals of abject wickedness, servitude, and financial bondage.

We the people were given freedom by God to build that shinning city on a hill on our own, as private citizens, without the "help" of coercive power, but we've succumbed to the siren song of the Kingmen.

Edited May 6, 2013 by teddyaware

[Darren10]

Most Charitable Nations Are Among the Most Economically Free

[Darren10]

Not really. North Korea is presently a basket case of a country. But culturally Korea is far older than the US.

http://en.wikipedia....istory_of_Korea

Agreed on North Korea being a basket case of a country but isn't the Korean Peninsula as a civilization vastly older than the United States cuz North Korea and South Korea are not. Also, why the difference?

Venezuela declares 90-day electricity "emergency"

Coutesy of Hugo Chavez...

Venezuela darkened by power outages

CAGUA, Venezuela — Blessed with huge oil and natural gas reserves as well as massive rivers that power hydroelectric dams, Venezuela is energy rich. So why do the lights keep going out?

In 21 of the country’s 24 states, blackouts and power rationing are keeping thousands of businesses, schools, hospitals and neighborhoods in the dark.

Kinda like that blue state California.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Darren10

[pmccombs1]

No Mormon will deny that God founded this country.

I'm Mormon, and I deny it. America is more Jefferson than Jesus, I'm afraid. Is there evidence that God influenced the founding of the United States? Yes, I think the case can be made.

But, you did provide an amazing example of religious cherry-picking to support your particular political and economic world view. I'm sure you'll find those whose political ideals are opposed to your own who can make similar appeals to scripture and modern prophets.

[Darren10]

You'll find that the vast majority of countries, the US included, do both.

RI

The US has walls to keep people in? Who knew?

[pmccombs1]

The role of governement is not to provide charity.

Thomas Hobbes, who laid much of the foundation of Western political theory, has NO CLUE what you are even talking about.

See, government is by the consent of the governed. Thus, The People are the Author of the government. Thus, if the government provides charity, it is The People who authorize it and your comment makes no sense at all. YOU are providing charity through the government as your vehicle. Don't like it? Then consent to some other form of government. That's how it's done. Just because the government doesn't happen to match your perfect ideal, it isn't suddenly license to say that the government is null and void. You are still its author, even if you don't like it.

It's that, or the state of war. Says Hobbes.

[pmccombs1]

...is there some other "ism" which should draw our allegiance?

How about Distributism?

The following comment of mine is more on topic in this thread:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60758-the-demise-of-guys-the-end-of-men-and-where-have-all-the-good-men-gone/#entry1209255056

[BCSpace]

Given the propensity of talks given by GA's and Prophets in the run up to WWII and afterwards during the Cold War to condemn Socialism, what is the scriptural support for Capitalism as opposed to Socialism, or is there some other "ism" which should draw our allegiance? In asking this question, I am excluding Karl Marx's general atheistic attitude towards religion in the Communist Manifesto.

The doctrine on the Law of Consecration, which I link to in my siggy, is one of the best as it shows an absolute rejection of Socialism and communalism. Rather, it's fundamental principle is private property and the free use of it. What the Law of Consecration isn't also tells us implicitly that Capitalism and the Free Market is the Lord's economy.

In fact just by looking at the scriptures one can see that God Himself is a Free Market Capitalist. He expects a return on his investment (parable of the talents). He expects us to invest as well (lay up treasures in heaven). Being good with money is necessary for salvation (parable of the unjust steward). His injunctions to help the poor to not include calling on the government to interceed, but rather is a call to individuals (the entire BoM). Degree of salvation is merit based. etc. etc.

The whole system of agency is free market capitalism (2 Nephi 2) which is about enticement and persuasion and is a completely neutral system; any good or evil therein coming from indiviudals who bring them. Karl Marx was concerned about "surplus value" which is the additional value of a product over the value of the labor cost to make it and he wanted to eliminate it. However, surplus value is the incentive/persuasion to do good in the market and by removing incentive one removes agency. And that is why Socialism is essentially Satan's plan, the removal of agency.

Etc. etc.

At the end of the Church's treatise on the LoC (my siggy), it ends with the doctrine of there can be no forced actions, no matter how lofty the goal.

[BCSpace]

...is there some other "ism" which should draw our allegiance?

How about Distributism?

Nope. Just free market capitalism, pure and simple. It's the only ism supported by doctrine and scripture.

[Darren10]

Of note is the fact that the Warsaw Pact country of East Germany had a LDS Temple before the NATO Pact country of West Germany.

Huh???

Announcement: 1 April 1981

Groundbreaking and Site Dedication: 1 July 1985 by Gordon B. Hinckley

Public Open House: 29 July–8 August 1987

Dedication: 28–30 August 1987 by Ezra Taft Benson

Frankfurt Germany Temple

Announcement: 9 October 1982

Groundbreaking and Site Dedication: 23 April 1983 by Thomas S. Monson

Public Open House: 3–15 June 1985

Dedication: 29–30 June 1985 by Gordon B. Hinckley

Public Open House: 17–31 August 2002

Rededication: 7 September 2002 by Gordon B. Hinckley

Freiberg Germany Temple

It was announced later but dedicated earlier. That is interesting.

[Darren10]

If you don't know the difference between Socialism and Naziism God help us all. Moreover Hitler was not an Atheist he was a Roman Catholic

BTW the US and the USSR were allies during all of WW2, and it is ONLY the US that has EVER dropped Atomic Bombs in war.

Hitler was more mystic than anything else. He believe in religious imagery for their ability to unite people together. Also, thank God the US is the only country to have dropped an atomic bomb lest much of the world be speaking German and be living under tyranny.

One one more note, both Socialism and Nazism are parts of fascism (Mussolini developing another form of it as well). In fact Nazism is more formaly known as National Socialsm which pre-existed Nazism but that movement fully exploited its tenets.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Darren10

[thesometimesaint]

Last I looked the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution was still in the US Constitution. What parts of the US Constitution do you want to get rid of.

Looking to the 10th Amendment is a nonstarter.

The Tenth Amendment, which makes explicit the idea that the federal government is limited only to the powers granted in the Constitution, has been declared to be truism by the Supreme Court. In United States v. Sprague (1931) the Supreme Court asserted that the amendment "added nothing to the [Constitution] as originally ratified."

States and local governments have occasionally attempted to assert exemption from various federal regulations, especially in the areas of labor and environmental controls, using the Tenth Amendment as a basis for their claim. An often-repeated quote, from United States v. Darby, 312 U.S. 100, 124 (1941), reads as follows:

The amendment states but a truism that all is retained which has not been surrendered. There is nothing in the history of its adoption to suggest that it was more than declaratory of the relationship between the national and state governments as it had been established by the Constitution before the amendment or that its purpose was other than to allay fears that the new national government might seek to exercise powers not granted, and that the states might not be able to exercise fully their reserved powers.

There is nothing now that prevents any group from forming their idea of utopia. But they are still expected to conform to the laws of whatever city, county(perish), state, they reside in, and this nations' Federal governmental laws.

Laizzez Faire capitalism, nowhere found in the US Constitution, in fact is decried in the Commerce Clause, was a resounding failure wherever it has been tried.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022409267

Still can, and there is nothing that prevents the Federal government from establishing minimal standards for that medical insurance, or even from providing a subsidy to those that can't afford one.

We the children of God have an atrocious history when it comes to creating that merciful and just society on our own without the funding, input and control of government overseers. As if the people in government aren't children of that same God too.

As Brigham Young said, Paraphrasing; The Saints didn't leave Babylon behind when they came west. They brought it with them.

NO we don't have that right as private citizen unconstrained by the laws of whatever government we are under.

The Kingmen of the BoM were wicked in that they supported a king for their own benefit, that they could change the laws to escape the law.

[SamIam]

While there is nothing wrong with Charity. She has no ability to run a government.

Yet she married you anyway...

[thesometimesaint]

Agreed on North Korea being a basket case of a country but isn't the Korean Peninsula as a civilization vastly older than the United States cuz North Korea and South Korea are not. Also, why the difference?

Venezuela declares 90-day electricity "emergency"

Coutesy of Hugo Chavez...

Venezuela darkened by power outages

Kinda like that blue state California.

I have no love for the former President of Columbia.

The blackouts of California were caused by criminal price fixing and manipulation by ERON, you remember George W. Bush's good friend Ken Lay, and allied companies.

http://en.wikipedia....ctricity_crisis

Which also lead to the state of California having a $38 Billion shortfall when Arnold Schwarzenegger as part of his bid for financing his run for Governor conspired to not seek prosecution of ERON. http://www.projectce...ifornia-recall/

Edited May 6, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

Yet she married you anyway...

I am thankful everyday for her level of charity.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have no love for the former President of Columbia.

Columbia?

[thesometimesaint]

Sorry that is Venezuela. My bad.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If you don't know the difference between Socialism and Naziism God help us all. Moreover Hitler was not an Atheist he was a Roman Catholic

BTW the US and the USSR were allies during all of WW2, and it is ONLY the US that has EVER dropped Atomic Bombs in war.

I am sorry you are just spouting revisionist history here. Hitler was born Roman Catholic but he was an Athiest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_views

After leaving home, Hitler never again attended Mass or received the sacraments.^[344] Speer states that Hitler never left the Catholic Church but had no attachment to it.^[345]He adds that Hitler felt that in the absence of the church the faithful would turn to mysticism, which he considered a step backwards.^[345] Historian John S. Conway states that Hitler was fundamentally opposed to the Christian churches.^[346] According to Bullock, Hitler did not believe in God, was anti-clerical, and held Christian ethics in contempt because they contravened his preferred view of "survival of the fittest

He essentialy was taking in by Darwin.

And tell me, as far as a government stand point is concerned what is the difference between "Socialism" and "National Socialist German Workers Party"?

Good grief Saint, the party he belonged too was the "National Socialist German Workers Party" You know socialist? Hello???