Rlds Extermination Order

[Robert F. Smith]

In the RLDS mind we are the ones who left the faith, and physically we did literally leave. While the current CofC doesn't use the term mormon, and rarely uses the term Saint, historically they did. Like it or not they are a part of Joseph Smith's restoration and generally classified as a mormon denomination.

Many scholars now classify the Community of Christ as a mainstream Protestant denomination.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I believe the RLDS where in Illinois until things cooled down enough to go to Missouri.

For many years our HQ's were in Lamoni, Iowa

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I wonder if the 250,000 includes the Remnant Church and the Restoration Church.

If you did not resign or were silenced you are still counted in the CofC membership numbers. Which makes the 250,000 claim highly inflated.

Edited April 28, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Damien the Leper]

If you did not resign or were silenced you are still counted in the CofC membership numbers. Which makes the 250,000 claim highly inflated.

What does that mean for you? I'm assuming you became RLDS after the split of the 80s. Since CoC is still the authoritatively Reorganized Church, does that mean that you are not officially part of the Reorganization? I'm of the opinion that the original and conservative RLDS church will never return or be reestablished. Community of Christ is here to stay. The Remnant Church had the right idea to get over the mess and move on.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

What does that mean for you? I'm assuming you became RLDS after the split of the 80s. Since CoC is still the authoritatively Reorganized Church, does that mean that you are not officially part of the Reorganization? I'm of the opinion that the original and conservative RLDS church will never return or be reestablished. Community of Christ is here to stay. The Remnant Church had the right idea to get over the mess and move on.

I came into the RLDS Restoration Movement in 2001, being rebaptized in a Restoration Branch- so I would not, and don't care to be, on CofChrist church membership roles.

I support the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB), and believe it is the vehicle of the LORD to continue the work abandoned by the Community of Christ.

[randyj]

I came into the RLDS Restoration Movement in 2001, being rebaptized in a Restoration Branch- so I would not, and don't care to be, on CofChrist church membership roles.

I support the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB), and believe it is the vehicle of the LORD to continue the work abandoned by the Community of Christ.

I have lived in Independence Missouri my entire 56yrs...and have witnessed this evolution/revolution take place first hand. I have friends in most all of the different Restoration churches. Regarding the RLDS membership number of 250,000....I feel to remind everyone that the RLDS/CoC has "used" or have claimed that number for as long as I can remember....and that they use as a baseline a total church membership number of 200,000 at the time of the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith as found in RLDS church history vol. 3 (I believe, might be 4) It is also true, that for the most part...all of the Restoration groups ie; CoC, Remnant church, Restoration branches, Restored LDS and others...can actually be categorized as "stagnant" with respect to their growth. The reality and truth is....that the membership in these groups, for the most part.. can accurately be described as "elderly". Within a few relatively short years...they will not be a factor....if they are now, which in my opinion they are not. Wonderful people....but they are burdened down by the "tradition of their fathers"....and are still waiting for the Lord to "set his house in order"....whatever that means to each particular group. In the meantime, the LDS here continue to make good, not great, but good solid and steady progress. The dedication of the Kansas City Missouri temple has already having a wonderfully positive impact on the missionary work here in Independence, and surrounding communities. The work is hastening...and going into 5th gear.

[Duncan]

I have lived in Independence Missouri my entire 56yrs...and have witnessed this evolution/revolution take place first hand. I have friends in most all of the different Restoration churches. Regarding the RLDS membership number of 250,000....I feel to remind everyone that the RLDS/CoC has "used" or have claimed that number for as long as I can remember....and that they use as a baseline a total church membership number of 200,000 at the time of the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith as found in RLDS church history vol. 3 (I believe, might be 4) It is also true, that for the most part...all of the Restoration groups ie; CoC, Remnant church, Restoration branches, Restored LDS and others...can actually be categorized as "stagnant" with respect to their growth. The reality and truth is....that the membership in these groups, for the most part.. can accurately be described as "elderly". Within a few relatively short years...they will not be a factor....if they are now, which in my opinion they are not. Wonderful people....but they are burdened down by the "tradition of their fathers"....and are still waiting for the Lord to "set his house in order"....whatever that means to each particular group. In the meantime, the LDS here continue to make good, not great, but good solid and steady progress. The dedication of the Kansas City Missouri temple has already having a wonderfully positive impact on the missionary work here in Independence, and surrounding communities. The work is hastening...and going into 5th gear.

I had a mission companion from the Independance area, Olsen was his last name. I haven't had much if any contact with him going on over ten years now. Do you by chance know him? I would love to get in contact with him! We served together in the California Arcadia Mission.Thanks!! PM me for details if you so wish!

[randyj]

I had a mission companion from the Independance area, Olsen was his last name. I haven't had much if any contact with him going on over ten years now. Do you by chance know him? I would love to get in contact with him! We served together in the California Arcadia Mission.Thanks!! PM me for details if you so wish!

Sent two PM's

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I have lived in Independence Missouri my entire 56yrs...and have witnessed this evolution/revolution take place first hand. I have friends in most all of the different Restoration churches. Regarding the RLDS membership number of 250,000....I feel to remind everyone that the RLDS/CoC has "used" or have claimed that number for as long as I can remember....and that they use as a baseline a total church membership number of 200,000 at the time of the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith as found in RLDS church history vol. 3 (I believe, might be 4) It is also true, that for the most part...all of the Restoration groups ie; CoC, Remnant church, Restoration branches, Restored LDS and others...can actually be categorized as "stagnant" with respect to their growth. The reality and truth is....that the membership in these groups, for the most part.. can accurately be described as "elderly". Within a few relatively short years...they will not be a factor....if they are now, which in my opinion they are not. Wonderful people....but they are burdened down by the "tradition of their fathers"....and are still waiting for the Lord to "set his house in order"....whatever that means to each particular group. In the meantime, the LDS here continue to make good, not great, but good solid and steady progress. The dedication of the Kansas City Missouri temple has already having a wonderfully positive impact on the missionary work here in Independence, and surrounding communities. The work is hastening...and going into 5th gear.

The current problem in the church was prophesied in Matthew 24 (Inspired Version). But the LORD is setting things in order and bringing the pure in heart together.

Just curious what traditions your refer to?

Zion?

The Gathering?

Consecration?

I will make no apologies to holding to those "traditions of men".

[Robert F. Smith]

I came into the RLDS Restoration Movement in 2001, being rebaptized in a Restoration Branch- so I would not, and don't care to be, on CofChrist church membership roles.

I support the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB), and believe it is the vehicle of the LORD to continue the work abandoned by the Community of Christ.

I describe this as a Marcionite approach to Scripture:

As it progressively jettisoned all connections with its Latter Day Saint Restoration heritage, on the road to becoming a mainstream Protestant Church, the RLDS Church has been jettisoning its embarrassing elements of “Restoration Scripture.” In so doing it mimicked the approach or rationale of several prominent German scholars of the nineteenth century, such as Adolf von Harnack and Friedrich Delitzsch. Both clearly agreed that the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) should be jettisoned due to its unenlightened and anachronistic nature. Indeed, von Harnack said that “for Protestantism since the nineteenth century to continue to treasure it as a canonical document is the result of a religious and ecclesiastical paralysis.” (Von Harnack, Marcion: Das Evangelium vom fremden Gott: Eine Monographie zur Geschichte der Grundlegung der katholischen Kirche, Texte und Untersuchungen 45, rev. and enl. ed. [Leipzig: Hinrichs, 1924], 217, cited in Bill T. Arnold and David B. Weisberg, Bible Review, 18/1 (Feb 2002), 32-40,47; quotation on 38).

[Alan]

Randy,

Greetings from England.

Do you remember me?

Just tried to PM you but it says you don't receive PM's.

So I just want to say thanks for all your help and friendship in the past. You helped me in ways I cannot describe here.

I would like to bring you up to date but don't know how to contact you.

Your mate,

Alan

[randyj]

Randy,

Greetings from England.

Do you remember me?

Just tried to PM you but it says you don't receive PM's.

So I just want to say thanks for all your help and friendship in the past. You helped me in ways I cannot describe here.

I would like to bring you up to date but don't know how to contact you.

Your mate,

Alan

Are you kidding me??? Of course I remember you! We're Mates!!! Let me take a look at my settings....I will figure it out..I think! Alan....you and I went through some interesting times...that is for sure!! I have thought about you often...and am still waiting for you to skip across the pond and come to Independence. You will always have a place to stay...and we'll check out the Temple...it's exactly 20 minutes from our house. Ok....now about those settings.....hmmmmm

[randyj]

Randy,

Greetings from England.

Do you remember me?

Just tried to PM you but it says you don't receive PM's.

So I just want to say thanks for all your help and friendship in the past. You helped me in ways I cannot describe here.

I would like to bring you up to date but don't know how to contact you.

Your mate,

Alan

Alan....okay....I looked at all my settings etc....and they're set the way they need to be. I just received some PM's from "Duncan".....and I was able to respond back as well. Try it again!!! If not....we'll go to plan B

[randyj]

The current problem in the church was prophesied in Matthew 24 (Inspired Version). But the LORD is setting things in order and bringing the pure in heart together.

Just curious what traditions your refer to?

Zion?

The Gathering?

Consecration?

I will make no apologies to holding to those "traditions of men".

I'm certainly not asking you to do anything of the sort with respect to those "doctrines". Primarily...the traditions I speak of are 1) Brigham Young bad 2) Quorum of 12 all in on the conspiracy to kill JS jr 3) JS jr did not practice or teach the doctrine of eternal marriage 4) JS jr did not teach the doctrine of baptism for the dead 5) the tradition that there were 200k members of the church at the time of JS jr death, when official church membership records indicate around 25k to 28k. The RLDS has always used the 200K number to bolster their claim that a "majority" of the Church did not go west with BY 6) the tradition that the Nauvoo period of the church was for the most part "uninspired". 7) the tradition that because of said "uninspired Nauvoo period"...that was proof that JSjr had lost his "spiritual edge" and thus was a "fallen prophet" .... that at some point the Lord will come and do all the heavy lifting by himself and "set the church back in order". These are just for starters...there are many, many more. But...but....all of us (in both are respective churches) are so far on down the road from the "differences that persist"....that it is really is a waste of our time and emotional energy to fuss or debate them anymore. It is what it is....and as time has gone by....the picture has become much more crystal clear for many of the folks of the other various Restoration flavors...and they're beginning to see things in a different light than in times past. This is good. Progress is being made. That period of church history is a fascinating one to be sure....and one that I've studied at length over the last 3 1/2 almost 4 decades now. It's all good! Just out of curiosity....were you able to go the KC Missouri Temple open house for a tour?? If so...what were your thoughts on it? Also, since we're both curious...I am curious as to what exactly you feel the Lord will do, or needs to do to "set his house in order"? What are your thoughts on the Remnant Church and their claim that the Lord has already...and finally...set the Church back in order as you claim he needs to?

Edited April 30, 2013 by randyj

[randyj]

The current problem in the church was prophesied in Matthew 24 (Inspired Version). But the LORD is setting things in order and bringing the pure in heart together.

Just curious what traditions your refer to?

Zion?

The Gathering?

Consecration?

I will make no apologies to holding to those "traditions of men".

"The current problem in the church was prophesied in Matthew 24 (Inspired Version). But the LORD is setting things in order and bringing the pure in heart together." Just so I'm clear....Matthew 24 in the KJV and the Inspired Version (LDS Joseph Smith Translation) are the same. Would you agree? I show chapters 21 and 26 as having been corrected...but not Matthew 24. I just read chap.24 again. Could you help me out...throw me a bone so to speak....and point out for me which verses you're using to support your position? Thanks

[Calm]

Alan....okay....I looked at all my settings etc....and they're set the way they need to be. I just received some PM's from "Duncan".....and I was able to respond back as well. Try it again!!! If not....we'll go to plan B

Try PMing him, it is possible he will be able to respond back but not be able to initiate a conversation due to some glitch that some posters are subject to.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I describe this as a Marcionite approach to Scripture:

As it progressively jettisoned all connections with its Latter Day Saint Restoration heritage, on the road to becoming a mainstream Protestant Church, the RLDS Church has been jettisoning its embarrassing elements of “Restoration Scripture.” In so doing it mimicked the approach or rationale of several prominent German scholars of the nineteenth century, such as Adolf von Harnack and Friedrich Delitzsch. Both clearly agreed that the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) should be jettisoned due to its unenlightened and anachronistic nature. Indeed, von Harnack said that “for Protestantism since the nineteenth century to continue to treasure it as a canonical document is the result of a religious and ecclesiastical paralysis.” (Von Harnack, Marcion: Das Evangelium vom fremden Gott: Eine Monographie zur Geschichte der Grundlegung der katholischen Kirche, Texte und Untersuchungen 45, rev. and enl. ed. [Leipzig: Hinrichs, 1924], 217, cited in Bill T. Arnold and David B. Weisberg, Bible Review, 18/1 (Feb 2002), 32-40,47; quotation on 38).

I am not exactly sure what this has to do with my post that your appear to the responding to.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I'm certainly not asking you to do anything of the sort with respect to those "doctrines". Primarily...the traditions I speak of are 1) Brigham Young bad 2) Quorum of 12 all in on the conspiracy to kill JS jr 3) JS jr did not practice or teach the doctrine of eternal marriage 4) JS jr did not teach the doctrine of baptism for the dead 5) the tradition that there were 200k members of the church at the time of JS jr death, when official church membership records indicate around 25k to 28k. The RLDS has always used the 200K number to bolster their claim that a "majority" of the Church did not go west with BY 6) the tradition that the Nauvoo period of the church was for the most part "uninspired". 7) the tradition that because of said "uninspired Nauvoo period"...that was proof that JSjr had lost his "spiritual edge" and thus was a "fallen prophet" .... that at some point the Lord will come and do all the heavy lifting by himself and "set the church back in order". These are just for starters...there are many, many more. But...but....all of us (in both are respective churches) are so far on down the road from the "differences that persist"....that it is really is a waste of our time and emotional energy to fuss or debate them anymore. It is what it is....and as time has gone by....the picture has become much more crystal clear for many of the folks of the other various Restoration flavors...and they're beginning to see things in a different light than in times past. This is good. Progress is being made. That period of church history is a fascinating one to be sure....and one that I've studied at length over the last 3 1/2 almost 4 decades now. It's all good! Just out of curiosity....were you able to go the KC Missouri Temple open house for a tour?? If so...what were your thoughts on it? Also, since we're both curious...I am curious as to what exactly you feel the Lord will do, or needs to do to "set his house in order"? What are your thoughts on the Remnant Church and their claim that the Lord has already...and finally...set the Church back in order as you claim he needs to?

Wow, that is a lot to respond to crammed into one paragraph...

1) Agreed

2) Not a traiditon of our fathers" just an idea some have. John Hajicek and and another guy (not a Restorationist) have interesting ideas concerning ballistics that show that the traditional LDS account of the martyrdom is unlikely.

3) With the amount of condradictory testimonies on the issue to delcare that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage is higly suspect. Richard & Pamela Price offer a good review of the RLDS side in "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy"

* the denial of baptism for the dead is not unviersal or official. Many are waiting for more light on the subject, or feel it was a practice for a specific time and that time has ended.

* the inflated membership numbers in the Nauvoo era are had among both churches. I don't presume to know the actual numbers, but it is obvious the whole church did not follow Brigham- in fact, Strang's group and the LDS group had similar membership numbers until "King James" was killed.

4) I have never heard a traditonal, conservative RLDS believer say Joseph was a fallen prophet, you may be confusing us with the Church of Christ (TL) folks.

** I am one that is tired of the walls of division that we have created among our various organizations. It is crazy that would we cooperate more with the Gentile Protestant churches than with each other. I pray for the day when the pure in heart are gathered home to Zion, and become the shining city on the hill that the people will look to for refuge when the darkest days known among men fall upon the earth (D&C 45)

** We hadn't gathered when the KC Temple stuff was going on. But I am familar with LDS Temples having gone through the rituals in Portland, Provo, SLC, and Buenos Aires.

** I believe the LORD is setting his church in order right now through the JCRB. He is calling Seventy now, and when the people are sufficiently prepared and open, he will fill the Apostolic and Presidential Quorums- just as he did in the early days of the Reorganization.

** I have fasted and prayed concerning the calling of Bro. Fred- the LORD did not show me that Fred's calling is His will. The LORD did show me, through a dream, concerning the JCRB and the calling of additional Seventy.

Edited April 30, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Damien the Leper]

I came into the RLDS Restoration Movement in 2001, being rebaptized in a Restoration Branch- so I would not, and don't care to be, on CofChrist church membership roles.

I support the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB), and believe it is the vehicle of the LORD to continue the work abandoned by the Community of Christ.

Fair enough. Thank you for explaining, friend.

[Damien the Leper]

Post removed. Please do not post full names without permission of the poster you are identifying.

Whoops! Sorry about that.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Valentinus

[Damien the Leper]

Wow, that is a lot to respond to crammed into one paragraph...

1) Agreed

2) Not a traiditon of our fathers" just an idea some have. John Hajicek and and another guy (not a Restorationist) have interesting ideas concerning ballistics that show that the traditional LDS account of the martyrdom is unlikely.

3) With the amount of condradictory testimonies on the issue to delcare that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage is higly suspect. Richard & Pamela Price offer a good review of the RLDS side in "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy"

* the denial of baptism for the dead is not unviersal or official. Many are waiting for more light on the subject, or feel it was a practice for a specific time and that time has ended.

* the inflated membership numbers in the Nauvoo era are had among both churches. I don't presume to know the actual numbers, but it is obvious the whole church did not follow Brigham- in fact, Strang's group and the LDS group had similar membership numbers until "King James" was killed.

4) I have never heard a traditonal, conservative RLDS believer say Joseph was a fallen prophet, you may be confusing us with the Church of Christ (TL) folks.

** I am one that is tired of the walls of division that we have created among our various organizations. It is crazy that would we cooperate more with the Gentile Protestant churches than with each other. I pray for the day when the pure in heart are gathered home to Zion, and become the shining city on the hill that the people will look to for refuge when the darkest days known among men fall upon the earth (D&C 45)

** We hadn't gathered when the KC Temple stuff was going on. But I am familar with LDS Temples having gone through the rituals in Portland, Provo, SLC, and Buenos Aires.

** I believe the LORD is setting his church in order right now through the JCRB. He is calling Seventy now, and when the people are sufficiently prepared and open, he will fill the Apostolic and Presidential Quorums- just as he did in the early days of the Reorganization.

** I have fasted and prayed concerning the calling of Bro. Fred- the LORD did not show me that Fred's calling is His will. The LORD did show me, through a dream, concerning the JCRB and the calling of additional Seventy.

I just wanted to say that I absolutely love hearing your perspective on things. In an odd way it is refreshing to hear a different view. Thank you for sharing!

Also, I am curious as to what drew you to the Restoration Branches and out of the LDS church. If you don't want to answer here in the forum, feel free to respond by PM or if you're not comfortable at all then I respect your choice to not respond.

[ksfisher]

2) Not a traiditon of our fathers" just an idea some have. John Hajicek and and another guy (not a Restorationist) have interesting ideas concerning ballistics that show that the traditional LDS account of the martyrdom is unlikely.

Do you have anymore information on this? The quick google search I did didn't turn up anything.

[randyj]

Wow, that is a lot to respond to crammed into one paragraph...

1) Agreed

2) Not a traiditon of our fathers" just an idea some have. John Hajicek and and another guy (not a Restorationist) have interesting ideas concerning ballistics that show that the traditional LDS account of the martyrdom is unlikely. Interesting....I'm curious...what other account is there out there that would support another position?

3) With the amount of condradictory testimonies on the issue to delcare that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage is higly suspect. Richard & Pamela Price offer a good review of the RLDS side in "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" No..not that he practiced and taught plural marriage (although he did) I specifically asked if he taught and practiced "eternal marriage" ie; did he and Emma receive their endowment and were they sealed? Yes, I know Richard and Pamela...their bookstore is 3 minutes from where I live. Not to be harsh..but "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" is hardly considered an exhaustive or serious examination of the subject. Agree or disagree....but anyone who denies at a minimum that he TAUGHT the doctrine is simply in denial of a Mt. Everest of evidence.

* the denial of baptism for the dead is not unviersal or official. Many are waiting for more light on the subject, or feel it was a practice for a specific time and that time has ended.

I find this a somewhat odd approach to this given everything the Prophet Joseph had taught and written about it...and especially the sense of urgency contained in those writings. What additional light needs to be given? Where in any of the writings is there any hint as to the practice being for a "specific time"?

* the inflated membership numbers in the Nauvoo era are had among both churches. I don't presume to know the actual numbers, but it is obvious the whole church did not follow Brigham- in fact, Strang's group and the LDS group had similar membership numbers until "King James" was killed. There really is only one set of numbers the historians go by....and those are found in the official records TCOJCOLDS at that time...those records obviously went west with the institutional church.

4) I have never heard a traditonal, conservative RLDS believer say Joseph was a fallen prophet, you may be confusing us with the Church of Christ (TL) folks. Oh no, trust me....I'm not confused. The Temple Lot beliefs are a whole other chapter. I have heard this from countless members of the RLDS/CoC over the years. It has become the only rationalization for not accepting the doctrine taught by Joseph during the Nauvoo period.

** I am one that is tired of the walls of division that we have created among our various organizations. It is crazy that would we cooperate more with the Gentile Protestant churches than with each other. I pray for the day when the pure in heart are gathered home to Zion, and become the shining city on the hill that the people will look to for refuge when the darkest days known among men fall upon the earth (D&C 45) Agreed...it would be much more rewarding and productive for everyone involved.

** We hadn't gathered when the KC Temple stuff was going on. But I am familar with LDS Temples having gone through the rituals in Portland, Provo, SLC, and Buenos Aires. hahaha...okay....I understand from whence you're coming.....good to know.

** I believe the LORD is setting his church in order right now through the JCRB. He is calling Seventy now, and when the people are sufficiently prepared and open, he will fill the Apostolic and Presidential Quorums- just as he did in the early days of the Reorganization.

** I have fasted and prayed concerning the calling of Bro. Fred- the LORD did not show me that Fred's calling is His will. The LORD did show me, through a dream, concerning the JCRB and the calling of additional Seventy.

[randyj]

Alan Tomlinson?

Randy Johnson?

uh oh! I plead guilty as charged! and you?

[randyj]

I just wanted to say that I absolutely love hearing your perspective on things. In an odd way it is refreshing to hear a different view. Thank you for sharing!

Also, I am curious as to what drew you to the Restoration Branches and out of the LDS church. If you don't want to answer here in the forum, feel free to respond by PM or if you're not comfortable at all then I respect your choice to not respond.

It's so weird because my former Bishop, now in the Stake Presidency...was a former RLDS and Restoration branch member.....I just find this whole dynamic very fascinating!