Rlds Extermination Order

[inquiringmind]

My knowledge of Church History around the time BY became leader and led the Church west is a little foggy.

I know the governor of Missouri issued something called "the extermination order," and most Mormons followed BY west, but I have the impression that some Mormons actually stayed in Missouri and became the RLDS.

How did that happen?

How did they know they wouldn't be exterminated?

Did they renounce their faith?

Did they have more courage and faith then the Mormons who went west?

And what of their enemies?

Did their they just decide they weren't real Mormons, or there weren't enough of them to be bothered about, or that they didn't really want to exterminate anyone to begin with?

[CASteinman]

The order was rescinded in 1977 as I recall. I have always wondered if you killed a Mormon in Missouri before that time, whether you could use Executive Order 44 as a defense.

[Scott Lloyd]

My knowledge of Church History around the time BY became leader and led the Church west is a little foggy.

I know the governor of Missouri issued something called "the extermination order," and most Mormons followed BY west, but I have the impression that some Mormons actually stayed in Missouri and became the RLDS.

How did that happen?

How did they know they wouldn't be exterminated?

Did they renounce their faith?

Did they have more courage and faith then the Mormons who went west?

And what of their enemies?

Did their they just decide they weren't real Mormons, or there weren't enough of them to be bothered about, or that they didn't really want to exterminate anyone to begin with?

The Mormons, led by Brigham Young, did not depart for the West from Missouri. They went across the Mississippi River to neighboring Illinois where they settled and founded the city of Nauvoo.

Eventually, mobbers murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith and then drove the Mormons from Illinois (not Missouri), but this was nearly a decade after Gov. Boggs of Missouri had issued the extermination order and the Mormons had left his state.

You are conflating a couple of events and skipping several years in your understanding of early Mormon history.

Edited to add:

Interestingly, by the time the Mormons were making their westward exodus to the Salt Lake Valley, Boggs himself became an immigrant to California. I understand some of the parties of Mormons heading west were apprehensive that they might meet up with Boggs and his party on the way.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

The order was rescinded in 1977 as I recall. I have always wondered if you killed a Mormon in Missouri before that time, whether you could use Executive Order 44 as a defense.

It had been mostly forgotten (except, of course, by Mormons) until someone from the RLDS Church brought it to the attention of then-Gov. Kit Bond, who officially rescinded it as a gesture of goodwill to the members of the LDS and RLDS churches.

[inquiringmind]

The Mormons, led by Brigham Young, did not depart for the West from Missouri. They went across the Mississippi River to neighboring Illinois where the settled and founded the city of Nauvoo.

Eventually, mobbers murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith and then drove the Mormons from Illinois (not Missouri), but this was nearly a decade after Gov. Boggs of Missouri had issued the extermination order and the Mormons had left his state.

You are conflating a couple of events and skipping several years in your understanding of early Mormon history.

Edited to add:

Interestingly, by the time the Mormons were making their westward exodus to the Salt Lake Valley, Boggs himself became an immigrant to California. I understand some of the parties of Mormons heading west were apprehensive that they might meet up with Boggs and his party on the way.

But where did the RLDS Church come from, and how did it end up being headquartered in Missouri (especially if the extermination order wasn't rescinded until 1977)?

Where were Emma Smith, her two sons, Lucy Mack Smith, David Whitmer, and Sidney Rigdon?

Were they all under a death sentence in Missouri?

If they were, how did the state end up with enough Mormons to start the RLDS denomination?

Edited April 25, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Saints Alive]

I believe the RLDS where in Illinois until things cooled down enough to go to Missouri.

[Scott Lloyd]

But where did the RLDS Church come from, ...

Rather than try to reconstruct it myself, I'll simply copy and paste the following paragraph from a Wikipedia entry:

After Joseph Smith's death, some Latter Day Saints believed that Smith had designated his eldest son, Joseph Smith III, as successor and some of these waited for young Joseph to take up his father's mantle. However, young Smith III was only 11 years old at the time of his father's death — his mother Emma Hale Smith and their family remained in Nauvoo, rather than moving to join any of the departing groups.

In the 1850s, groups of Midwestern Latter Day Saints who were unaffiliated with other Latter Day Saint factions (or who had left such affiliations) began to come together. Leaders including Jason W. Briggs and Zenas H. Gurley, Sr. began to call for the creation of a New Organization of the Latter Day Saint movement. They invited young Smith III to lead their New Organization and he accepted only after he believed he received a personal spiritual confirmation that this was the appropriate course of action. At a conference on April 6, 1860 at Amboy, Illinois, Smith III formally accepted the leadership of what was then known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. William Marks, former Stake President of Nauvoo served as Smith III's counselor in the reorganized First Presidency. The word Reorganized was added to the official church name in 1872, mostly to distinguish it from the larger Utah church, at that time already involved in controversy over its stance on polygamy.

... and how did it end up being headquartered in Missouri (especially if the extermination order wasn't rescinded until 1977)?

The early RLDS leaders moved the headquarters to Independence because of early teachings of Joseph Smith that Independence was to be the "center place" of Zion.

You have to understand that Boggs's extermination order very quickly became forgotten in Missouri and was never enforced after the Saints' exodus into Illinois and eventually to the Salt Lake Valley. Boggs himself had left for California by 1846, the same year that the Mormons departed Nauvoo.

When Gov Kit Bond of Missouri rescinded the extermination order in 1976, that was a symbolic gesture, as the order had not been observed in more than a century.

Where were Emma Smith, her two sons, Lucy Mack Smith, David Whitmore, and Sidney Rigdon?

See the paragraph I quoted above.

And there are ready sources for RLDS history on the Internet; probably better sources than what you might get here.

Were they all under a death sentence in Missouri?

See my response above. Boggs and the mobs to which he catered were simply interested in getting Joseph Smith and the Mormons out of Missouri. Once that happened, the Extermination Order was forgotten.

If they were, how did the state end up with enough Mormons to start the RLDS denomination?

See above. I hope by now you have a clearer perspective on the extermination order.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[inquiringmind]

Rather than try to reconstruct it myself, I'll simply copy and paste the following paragraph from a Wikipedia entry:

The early RLDS leaders moved the headquarters to Independence because of early teachings of Joseph Smith that Independence was to be the "center place" of Zion.

You have to understand that Boggs's extermination order very quickly became forgotten in Missouri and was never enforced after the Saints' exodus into Illinois and eventually to the Salt Lake Valley. Boggs himself had left for California by 1846, the same year that the Mormons departed Nauvoo.

When Gov Kit Bond of Missouri rescinded the extermination order in 1976, that was a symbolic gesture, as the order had not been observed in more than a century.

See the paragraph I quoted above.

And there are ready sources for RLDS history on the Internet; probably better sources than what you might get here.

See my response above. Boggs and the mobs to which he catered were simply interested in getting Joseph Smith and the Mormons out of Missouri. Once that happened, the Extermination Order was forgotten.

See above. I hope by now you have a clearer perspective on the extermination order.

Thank you.

[inquiringmind]

What was "the doctrine of the gathering"?

Was going west when BY led the saints to Utah mandatory or optional?

Weren't there branches and stakes in eastern states like Pennsylvania and New York?

Were they suppose to go west too?

Was anybody who stayed behind disobedient?

[Scott Lloyd]

What was "the doctrine of the gathering"?

It is a doctrine that stems back to Old Testament times. The covenant people of God are expected to symbolically leave Babylon -- or the lusts and pursuits of the world -- and gather to Zion, which is among other things a state of righteousness and devotion to God and the covenants made with him. The covenant people are then expected to carry the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue and people and invite them to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him.

The doctrine is always and primarily spiritual and symbolic. At times, it can be literal, as it was in the early days of this gospel dispensation, when converts to the Church were expected to physically relocate and come be with the Latter-day Saints, first in Nauvoo and environs and later in the Intermountain West after the founding of Salt Lake City.

Sometime after the turn of the century, the leaders of the Church began to encourage converts to remain in their own lands and build up Zion wherever they were already living. That is instruction that prevails to this day.

Was going west when BY led the saints to Utah mandatory or optional?

I'm thinking it was pretty much expected of all faithful Latter-day Saints at the time. I know that after they had established a temporary settlement in Winter Quarters (Omaha), Nebraska, and some of the Saints were getting rather comfortable with the farms they had established there on the Iowa-Nebraska border, the leaders of the Church in Salt Lake City directed that Winter Quarters be closed down as a settlement and the people to come be with the body of the Church in Utah.

The purpose, of course, was to develop a critical mass, as it were, at Church headquarters, so the Church could be strong enough to thrive and to carry out the divine mandate to spread the gospel globally.

Weren't there branches and stakes in eastern states like Pennsylvania and New York?

For a time, yes.

Were they suppose to go west too?

I'm not clear on that.

Was anybody who stayed behind disobedient?

I suppose only those who had been directly instructed to gather to Zion and had refused.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[alter idem]

What was "the doctrine of the gathering"?

It is the belief that we are preparing for the second coming of the Savior and that the people should gather together to prepare--also that we are finding and bringing out through missionary work, the house of Israel which has long been scattered through the world and fulfilling the prophesies regarding this gathering. It is also the work of genealogy and temple work.

Was going west when BY led the saints to Utah mandatory or optional?

It was strongly encouraged and desired--but that doesn't mean everyone went, for various reasons--mostly poverty. Some people did not go west, but if a person was a believer, they most likely wanted to join with the saints.

Weren't there branches and stakes in eastern states like Pennsylvania and New York?

There were branches in the eastern and even in the southern states and the people were encouraged to join, but once again, not everyone did. Also, some church members were sent to places to preside and keep the missionary work going, take care of church business, like printing pamphlets, etc.

Were they suppose to go west too?

When people joined the church they were encouraged to join with the saints wherever the main body of the church was--many did--some were too poor to go and others stayed for various reasons. there were still churches in those areas and when the missionaries came through those areas while traveling, they would stop in, preach, collect money to help with their missionary efforts, etc.

Was anybody who stayed behind disobedient?

the encouragement was to 'gather in zion' but there were various reasons why some did not. Brigham Young actually had some people who he requested stay and handle church business or served in a mission capacity in some eastern cities. I don't think it was usually a matter of being 'disobedient', but hardship. the desire of most believers was to gather with the saints, but not all were able to. When Sam Brannan brought some saints to Yerba Buena and the plan was to bring them to salt lake, he tried to encourage Brigham Young to let the saints stay there (under his leadership) and build the kingdom there, but Pres. Young wanted them to come to zion. He did send people to so calif to settle there, but he also called them back when he wanted them to settle another area. Some were called to settle areas and stayed the rest of their lives--Las Vegas Nev. and San Bernadino Ca. were both originally Mormon settlements.

The counsel to gather to Zion in the West was encouraged while immigration to the US was easy and desireable and many wanted to come. This also meant sending people to new settlements all over the mountain west, even Canada and Mexico. But, they did start to deemphasize this at the turn of the 19th century and members were encouraged to gather to areas where they could live in communities with other LDS. The idea of gathering to the stakes of Zion where ever a person lives came later and is the accepted belief for members today.

[mfbukowski]

My wife has distant cousins who stayed in Nauvoo (Illinois- not Missouri) and some of them became RLDS, but we know a few who actually we baptized into our church more than 100 years after their ancestors chose to stay in the area.

[Flyonthewall]

What was "the doctrine of the gathering"?

There can be only one...

[inquiringmind]

So in the mid to late nineteenth century, the western Mormons left Illinois and followed Brigham Young to Utah, Nevada, and California; and the eastern Mormons stayed in Illinois, and then moved back to Missouri and ended up under Joseph Smith III?

Edited April 26, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Robert F. Smith]

So in the mid to late nineteenth century, the western Mormons left Illinois and followed Brigham Young to Utah, Nevada, and California; and the eastern Mormons stayed in Illinois, and then moved back to Missouri and ended up under Joseph Smith III?

Though an oversimplification, that is essentially it.

The RLDS Church thrived under the dynastic succession of Smiths, and sometimes the RLDS Joseph Smith descendants would meet with the LDS Hyrum Smith descendants (two Joseph Fielding Smiths were presidents of the LDS Church, and Pres. George Albert Smith was a cousin). The RLDS once had a strong missionary program (many of whom gathered to Independence, Missouri), but, since dropping the Smith dynastic succession and becoming an essentially Protestant denomination, the RLDS (now the Community of Christ) have lost around half their people, thus leaving only about a quarter million members now.

Edit: I misspoke myself here: I meant to say an eighth of a million now, down from the quarter million of 30 years ago.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[canard78]

the encouragement was to 'gather in zion' but there were various reasons why some did not. Brigham Young actually had some people who he requested stay and handle church business or served in a mission capacity in some eastern cities. I don't think it was usually a matter of being 'disobedient', but hardship. the desire of most believers was to gather with the saints, but not all were able to. When Sam Brannan brought some saints to Yerba Buena and the plan was to bring them to salt lake, he tried to encourage Brigham Young to let the saints stay there (under his leadership) and build the kingdom there, but Pres. Young wanted them to come to zion. He did send people to so calif to settle there, but he also called them back when he wanted them to settle another area. Some were called to settle areas and stayed the rest of their lives--Las Vegas Nev. and San Bernadino Ca. were both originally Mormon settlements.

The counsel to gather to Zion in the West was encouraged while immigration to the US was easy and desireable and many wanted to come. This also meant sending people to new settlements all over the mountain west, even Canada and Mexico. But, they did start to deemphasize this at the turn of the 19th century and members were encouraged to gather to areas where they could live in communities with other LDS. The idea of gathering to the stakes of Zion where ever a person lives came later and is the accepted belief for members today.

Wow, red text. Looks like a moderator vomited on your post!

[Scott Lloyd]

So in the mid to late nineteenth century, ...

The exodus under Brigham Young began in 1846 and lasted through the early 1850s. Others followed, but they were immigrant converts, primarily from Europe and the British Isles.

... the western Mormons left Illinois and followed Brigham Young to Utah, Nevada, and California; and the eastern Mormons stayed in Illinois, and then moved back to Missouri and ended up under Joseph Smith III?

It's misleading, and it's too simplistic, to call them "eastern Mormons." Essentially, they were people who left the faith and began their own separate church. Not everyone who broke away from the Church became RLDS. Many formed or joined other splinter groups or simply fell away.

And the Community of Christ (formerly the RLDS Church) does not accept the term Mormons for itself.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Alan]

Though an oversimplification, that is essentially it.

The RLDS Church thrived under the dynastic succession of Smiths, and sometimes the RLDS Joseph Smith descendants would meet with the LDS Hyrum Smith descendants (two Joseph Fielding Smiths were presidents of the LDS Church, and Pres. George Albert Smith was a cousin). The RLDS once had a strong missionary program (many of whom gathered to Independence, Missouri), but, since dropping the Smith dynastic succession and becoming an essentially Protestant denomination, the RLDS (now the Community of Christ) have lost around half their people, thus leaving only about a quarter million members now.

Actually, the number you quote (250,000) includes all those people who have left. This is because most of them still consider themselves RLDS (and have not removed their names from church records) but have moved out from under what they regard as apostate leadership and continue to function as independent restoration branches - much the same pposition as many of the branches back east were in when the majority of saints left for the Salt Lake Valley.

[Saints Alive]

It's misleading, and it's too simplistic, to call them "eastern Mormons." Essentially, they were people who left the faith and began their own separate church. Not everyone who broke away from the Church became RLDS. Many formed or joined other splinter groups or simply fell away.

And the Community of Christ (formerly the RLDS Church) does not accept the term Mormons for itself.

In the RLDS mind we are the ones who left the faith, and physically we did literally leave. While the current CofC doesn't use the term mormon, and rarely uses the term Saint, historically they did. Like it or not they are a part of Joseph Smith's restoration and generally classified as a mormon denomination.

[Damien the Leper]

For Community of Christ (RLDS) history see here.

[Damien the Leper]

Actually, the number you quote (250,000) includes all those people who have left. This is because most of them still consider themselves RLDS (and have not removed their names from church records) but have moved out from under what they regard as apostate leadership and continue to function as independent restoration branches - much the same pposition as many of the branches back east were in when the majority of saints left for the Salt Lake Valley.

I wonder if the 250,000 includes the Remnant Church and the Restoration Church.

[Scott Lloyd]

In the RLDS mind we are the ones who left the faith, and physically we did literally leave.

That may well be, but I am explaining things from the perspective of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose doctrines and teachings I embrace.

While the current CofC doesn't use the term mormon, and rarely uses the term Saint, historically they did.

In the sense that some of the earliest members of the RLDS Church had been members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they historically were Mormons, I suppose. But I'm not certain they applied the term Mormons to themselves after what they call "the Reorganization." (I'm open to enlightenment on this point, however; feel free to provide some documentation, and I will readily consider it.) I do know that they do not today apply the term to themselves. And since none now living were alive to have been members of the Church under Joseph Smith's leadership, it is not proper to call them Mormons.

Like it or not they are a part of Joseph Smith's restoration and generally classified as a mormon denomination.

They originated as a schismatic group from the Restoration. And for reasons expressed above, they are not properly denoted as a "Mormon denomination."

Edited April 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

In the RLDS mind we are the ones who left the faith, and physically we did literally leave.

The late, great Mormon Trail historian Stanley Kimball used to say something along this line: "We left of our own free will -- because we were forced to."

There is physical removal and there is spiritual/cultural removal. If the Saints had accommodated the hatred and bigotry of their enemies, given up some basic human rights, caved in to demands from mobs, forsaken some distinguishing points of doctrine and belief, perhaps they could have remained in Illinois and become, well, what the RLDS Church did become.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Stone holm]

Interestingly, I just finished reading about counter partisan activities of the Union forces during the Civil War and some of the Counties that the Mormons were driven out of basically got laid waste by that later conflict . In order to root out and starve out the rebel guerrilla forces they ordered those counties evacuated and burned literally everything to the ground. Guess its not a smart thing to abuse the Lord's Church.

[Robert F. Smith]

Actually, the number you quote (250,000) includes all those people who have left. This is because most of them still consider themselves RLDS (and have not removed their names from church records) but have moved out from under what they regard as apostate leadership and continue to function as independent restoration branches - much the same pposition as many of the branches back east were in when the majority of saints left for the Salt Lake Valley.

You are quite right. I meant to say that an eighth of a million remain now of the quarter million official members of the RLDS Church (Community of Christ) of thirty years ago.