Location Of Ten Tribes

[thesometimesaint]

Tis the greatest story ever told.

[MDalby]

This is a good talk given by Joseph McConkie. Joseph is of course in line with the thoughts of the rest of the McConkie's on this topic. The McConkie's are of the opinion that the gathering of the Ten Tribes is a millennial event and the gathering is a spiritual gathering.

http://LDSLastDays.c...gslost.htm#body

There is only one scripture that I have not been able to get answered by the McConkie's. D&C 133:28

26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,

(D&C 133:26-28)

I just don't see how v. 28 is a millennial event. As we know, in the millennium, all enmity will cease. The McConkie's use 3 Nephi 21 as part of the support that the gathering of the Ten Tribes is millennial.

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.

The statement, "I also will be in the midst" doesn't necessitate a millennial event. As is evident in D&C 45:66-71

Edited April 8, 2013 by MDalby

[Stone holm]

Aren't they scattered all over the earth as per 3 Nephi 5:24-26? In a sense aren't we all scattered until we come, meaning coming back from spiritual captivity, unto Christ?

My apologies for not responding to this sooner. This a case, as I understand it where you can have your doctrinal cake and eat it too. The explanation is that as they were making this difficult trek North, that various members of the tribes would fall away from the main group and two tribes were especially known for having stiff necked contrary members, these being Ephraim and Manasseh , so they fell away in fairly large numbers. It is these fallen away members who left the main migration that lost all notion of their original identity which are being gathered out of all nations kindred tongues today.

[EllenMaksoud]

Sometime decades ago I remember reading where some Mormon scholars sent out a poll, to determine what theory as to the location of the ten tribes was held to be the most correct by the membership. The result had been the belief that they had been absorbed by Europe and Russia. This then prompted a response from the First Presidency stating this was incorrect and the tribes were gathered in one place and knew who they were. Unfortunately, I can't find that First Presidency declaration and wonder if anyone has a cite. Also am curious as to current speculation on the subject, my own being somewhat Battlestar Galactic related.

It would take a lot of work, but I wonder if they could be traced genetically. I suppose one would need to find people who, according to historical record, can say that their ancestors were part of the original 10 tribes. Then by taking a genetic sample, they could trace through other genetic records to see where the markers are.

There is an Evangelical Christian story, where toward the end time, the children of Israel would be gathered to the "Holy Land" and then a big mountain would open up and they would go in, where it would be closed again to protect them until all the fighting were over.

[bcuzbcuz]

The McConkie's are of the opinion that the gathering of the Ten Tribes is a millennial event and the gathering is a spiritual gathering.

A "spiritual gathering"? Is that like the JW's second coming of Christ in 1914 that no one got to see but they wrote it up as an event anyway?

[Stone holm]

A "spiritual gathering"? Is that like the JW's second coming of Christ in 1914 that no one got to see but they wrote it up as an event anyway?

Well there has been a change somehat in Church teachings. Clearly Joseph Smith, Jr. taught of a physical and a spiritual gathering -- as they gathered to various places in the United States, and that continued after the move to the west. However, the United States eventually slammed the door on immigration and then the Church modified its stance to speak of a spiritual gathering to the various Stakes located all over the globe. However, I do not believe the Church has modifed its doctrines with regards to the various foretold gatherings of the 12 tribes with the 10 tribes gathering here to Zion in Missouri, and the 2 tribes gathering in the New Jerusalem. I believe that we are the only Christian group which considers Zion and the New Jerusalem to be two distinct places and cities. Supposedly the plans for the Missouri Temple had judgment halls, etc. in it and places for ordinances that in Pres. Kimball's words can not be performed by mortals, etc. I am not sure what was referred to as to what McConkie's opinion may have been, but if you are referring to "Mormon Doctrine", I think you must take that with a heavy dose of salt. But there is a section on the change from a physical to a spiritual gathering in the Church's encyclopedia -- I believe, I have not read it lately.

[MormonMason]

It would take a lot of work, but I wonder if they could be traced genetically. I suppose one would need to find people who, according to historical record, can say that their ancestors were part of the original 10 tribes. Then by taking a genetic sample, they could trace through other genetic records to see where the markers are.

That would be a very difficult proposition. The children of Ephraim and Manasseh had no qualms about intermarrying with whomever was around. Tends to dilute the gene pool a bit. Even with the strict policy of marriage within the tribe held among the Lemba, these African people only have about 50% of those tested with the markers that identified them as being descended from the priestly line of Israel. And, this is only using the y sex chromosome. Just about all of their mitochondrial DNA is African, making that useless for such population testing purposes.

There is an Evangelical Christian story, where toward the end time, the children of Israel would be gathered to the "Holy Land" and then a big mountain would open up and they would go in, where it would be closed again to protect them until all the fighting were over.

Petra.

Edited April 8, 2013 by MormonMason

[Stone holm]

That would be a very difficult proposition. The children of Ephraim and Manasseh had no qualms about intermarrying with whomever was around. Tends to dilute the gene pool a bit. Even with the strict policy of marriage within the tribe held among the Lemba, these African people only have about 50% of those tested with the markers that identified them as being descended from the priestly line of Israel. And, this is only using the y sex chromosome. Just about all of their mitochondrial DNA is African, making that useless for such population testing purposes.

Petra.

Plus tribal descent seems to not be specifically tied to DNA since it is possible to have parents be of one tribe and one or more of their children to be of another tribe. I think whenever we try to get too scientific about such things, given our current level of knowledge about both the doctrine regarding tribes and about what constitutes being of a tribe from a future scientific standpoint, its all kind of murky so it is better to live with a certain amount of cognifive dissonance than to demand consistency in DNA evidence at this juncture.

[mfbukowski]

Well that's not necessarily inconsistent with my speculation about outer space.

You may be onto something!

[morjam401]

didn't Christ say he was going to visit them after he left the nephites. I don't think we have a record of that visit. something to think about.

[rongo]

The best book was by Utah weatherman (and my wife's junior high teacher) Clayton Brough (I think that was his name). It lays out all of the lost tribe theories (the good, the bad, and the ugly), is well-documented, and doesn't lean in any direction or take any positions.

I personally believe that they are in one body (they have their own prophets and scriptures, for instance) ---- not under the ice caps or at the center of the earth ---- and that we don't have every square inch of the globe surveyed. Their return is too dramatic to me to be the spiritual gathering of B.H. Roberts/Elder McConkie/President Fielding Smith. I've never been partial to theories that remove them from the earth.

On a different note, any thoughts on why Dan is excluded from the list of the 144,000 in Revelation? I don't have any idea, but I enjoy driving JW's nuts with the question (since the 144,000 are so important to them). Dan is simply gone from the list in Revelation.

[Maidservant]

Doesn't Denmark = Danmark?

AND I always post this, a favorite of mine, when this kind of subject comes up:

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/02/tracing-the-dispersion?lang=eng

[MormonMason]

...

On a different note, any thoughts on why Dan is excluded from the list of the 144,000 in Revelation? I don't have any idea, but I enjoy driving JW's nuts with the question (since the 144,000 are so important to them). Dan is simply gone from the list in Revelation.

There is an evangelical tradition that the antichrist is supposed to come from the tribe of Dan. Given that antichrist has already come, that is a bust. But, I thought I'd just throw that out there. On another note, one 11th century Greek manuscript (*1854) of Revelation substitutes Dan for Gad for some odd reason.

You will notice that the Book of Revelation mentions the tribes of Manasseh (verse 6) and Joseph (verse 8 ). Joseph was comprised of two half-tribes. It may have just been a very early scribal mistake, or it is also possible that an early tradition of a Danite antichrist may have resulted in some over-zealous scribes deliberately substituting Manasseh for Dan one scribe did with Gad being substituted by Dan.

But some Evangelicals say that the entire tribe of Dan became extinct, or will by the time of the choosing of the 144,000. In this light--if I am not mistaken in my recollection--Falasha Jews from Ethiopia have claimed that they are of the tribe of Dan, so one wonders how that will work, if their claim has any basis in fact. One also wonders how they would then fit in with Ezekiel's prophecy giving them a place in Israel at the time of the future temple (see Ezekiel 48:1).

Yet others say it is because of their propensity to lean toward idolatry throughout Israel's history, although that would mean that the word "all in the passage is exaggerative. This sort of thing would not be unheard of, however, since there are times when "all" does not actually mean "all" in some texts.

Others point out that the tribe of Dan is omitted from the lists of families in 1 Chronicles 2-9, and that this may have influenced their name being left out of Revelation. It is curious that Dan has been left out of that list as well as that in Revelation. The short answer is that we don't really know why Dan was left out. There is plenty of speculation, though.

[Stone holm]

I found this FAIR Article:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Ten_Lost_Tribes/Location

[EllenMaksoud]

You may be onto something!

Well, maybe we are all aliens, and earth is a prison planet. Hmmmm, we do not seem to be evolving to being less war like.

[EllenMaksoud]

I found this FAIR Article:

http://en.fairmormon...Tribes/Location

Not having been Mormon very long, can you please tell me what FAIR is, and is it an "authorized LDS" Page?

[Stone holm]

Not having been Mormon very long, can you please tell me what FAIR is, and is it an "authorized LDS" Page?

No, actually I can't...all I know is they seem to be in a lot of academic squabbles, but they do have interesting informational posts, doubt they are "authorized" -- but hopefully someone else can answer your questions about them.

[Calm]

The best book was by Utah weatherman (and my wife's junior high teacher) Clayton Brough (I think that was his name). It lays out all of the lost tribe theories (the good, the bad, and the ugly), is well-documented, and doesn't lean in any direction or take any positions.

That is the book I linked to:

http://tinyurl.com/bv87h58

[Calm]

Not having been Mormon very long, can you please tell me what FAIR is, and is it an "authorized LDS" Page?

No, we are not authorized, but we try and make sure that we don't post anything that contradicts church teachings (and have long debates about it at times, lol). We feel pretty comfortable with our product as the Church has felt comfortable enough about us to publish links and references to us from time to time as well as having reported our conferences in the Church News in the past and now DeseretNews.

FAIR is a volunteer organization of individuals who are interested in apologetics (defence of the faith) and helping people out for research, defence of the faith as well as trying to help people through a faith crisis or who are investigating the LDS faith. Once a year we hold a conference on a variety of topics, including controversial ones, inviting scholars and experts to share with us and anyone who wants to attend their latest research. There is a wide range of individuals involved, ranging from those who have learned about history and doctrine and controversies through personal experience and research, those who are not so educated in details but experienced in life issues and want to help others with that aspect to those who have professional and academic training in various areas. Basically we are trying to get all the relevant, correct information out there for people to study if they are interested or in need and we will even try to walk them through the process if that is what they desire. A few members, like myself, post on this board, but most do not.

Edited April 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

No, we are not authorized, but we try and make sure that we don't post anything that contradicts church teachings (and have long debates about it at times, lol). We feel pretty comfortable with our product as the Church has felt comfortable enough about us to publish links and references to us from time to time as well as having reported our conferences in the Church News in the past and now DeseretNews.

FAIR is a volunteer organization of individuals who are interested in apologetics (defence of the faith) and helping people out for research, defence of the faith as well as trying to help people through a faith crisis or who are investigating the LDS faith. Once a year we hold a conference on a variety of topics, including controversial ones, inviting scholars and experts to share with us and anyone who wants to attend their latest research. There is a wide range of individuals involved, ranging from those who have learned about history and doctrine and controversies through personal experience and research, those who are not so educated in details but experienced in life issues and want to help others with that aspect to those who have professional and academic training in various areas. Basically we are trying to get all the relevant, correct information out there for people to study if they are interested or in need and we will even try to walk them through the process if that is what they desire. A few members, like myself, post on this board, but most do not.

Thank You.

[Rob Osborn]

The lost tribes are inside the earth. Their access point is from under the ice at the north pole. Prophecy statesthat they will come from the "north countries". What or where is the north countries? Well, we are told that before they come the flood waters from Noah's day which caused the lands to become separated, will return to the "north countries"( place where lost tribes currently are). Then, the prophets of the lost tribes will smite the rocks, ice shall flow down and a highway will be thrust up from the great deep and the tribes will then come from their hiding place from under the ocean from the north pole area while the ice caps flow down at or from their presence. Reference is also made from an earlier prophecy that the keys were given to gather the tribes from the four corners of the earth( all the surface area of the exterior planet) and to lead the lost tribes from the north countries. The lost tribes will literally come in their ships from underneath the oceans in the north leaving their then flooded homeland countries from inside the earth.

[Stone holm]

The lost tribes are inside the earth. Their access point is from under the ice at the north pole. Prophecy statesthat they will come from the "north countries". What or where is the north countries? Well, we are told that before they come the flood waters from Noah's day which caused the lands to become separated, will return to the "north countries"( place where lost tribes currently are). Then, the prophets of the lost tribes will smite the rocks, ice shall flow down and a highway will be thrust up from the great deep and the tribes will then come from their hiding place from under the ocean from the north pole area while the ice caps flow down at or from their presence. Reference is also made from an earlier prophecy that the keys were given to gather the tribes from the four corners of the earth( all the surface area of the exterior planet) and to lead the lost tribes from the north countries. The lost tribes will literally come in their ships from underneath the oceans in the north leaving their then flooded homeland countries from inside the earth.

That is my understanding of one of the theories and I think you are right about the direction they will come from. Not sure about the ship part because a highway is said to be thrown up in the midst of the deep for them to travel on, and I don't think that we can assume that because they come from the North that that is where they are now.

[bcuzbcuz]

The lost tribes are inside the earth. Their access point is from under the ice at the north pole. Prophecy statesthat they will come from the "north countries". What or where is the north countries? Well, we are told that before they come the flood waters from Noah's day which caused the lands to become separated, will return to the "north countries"( place where lost tribes currently are). Then, the prophets of the lost tribes will smite the rocks, ice shall flow down and a highway will be thrust up from the great deep and the tribes will then come from their hiding place from under the ocean from the north pole area while the ice caps flow down at or from their presence. Reference is also made from an earlier prophecy that the keys were given to gather the tribes from the four corners of the earth( all the surface area of the exterior planet) and to lead the lost tribes from the north countries. The lost tribes will literally come in their ships from underneath the oceans in the north leaving their then flooded homeland countries from inside the earth.

Have you been to the North Pole? I've been very close to it by land and have flown over it. Santa Claus doesn't live there and there are no villages under the earth. You're just putting us on, aren't you?

[Rob Osborn]

Have you been to the North Pole? I've been very close to it by land and have flown over it. Santa Claus doesn't live there and there are no villages under the earth. You're just putting us on, aren't you?

As Christ as my witness I am telling the truth.

[blackstrap]

Have you been to the North Pole? I've been very close to it by land and have flown over it. Santa Claus doesn't live there and there are no villages under the earth. You're just putting us on, aren't you?

Well, Jules Verne and Brendan Frazer have both been there.