What I Think I Know About Joseph Smith Jr.

[MormonMason]

I'm sorry to drag this subject on but just wanted to say... since I was a little girl I've wanted to see this, I guess it was given a little too much fanfare back then and for some reason it's sanded off. Maybe similar to the belief of the Saviour, as stated by Tyler90, we want to celebrate his life not death.

The funny thing was that the blood in that spot that some said was the blood of Joseph Smith was actually that of Hyrum.

[Alan]

Smith is the family name, but if you go back a few generations you will find the first immigrant to America (I think) was probably NOT named Smith -- and took that name because he was on the run. Probably from Ireland.

Smith was the family name.

His paternal ancestor (named Smith) came from Sutterton in Lincolnshire, England.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Alan

[Tacenda]

The funny thing was that the blood in that spot that some said was the blood of Joseph Smith was actually that of Hyrum.

I've a vague memory of hearing that somewhere. Something to do with JS not being shot until he reached the window. And Hyrum was shot more in the middle of the room. I'll bet the missionaries get tired of questions about it. I'll try to refrain from bringing it up.

[Okrahomer]

Smith was the family name.

His paternal ancestor (named Smith) came from Sutterton in Lincolnshire, England.

CASteinman may have been referring to this:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700249298/DNA-shows-Joseph-Smith-was-Irish.html?pg=all

"DNA research into Joseph Smith Jr.'s genealogy has turned up a surprise, according to Ugo Perego, director of operations at the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation: A rare DNA marker shows that the assumption Smith's family line came from England is probably wrong. The Smiths were Irish. Elaine Nichols, a specialist in Joseph Smith's genealogy, according to Perego wrote in 1991 that Smith's line can only be followed with confidence back to Robert Smith, possibly born in 1626. Robert Smith showed up in 1638 in Boston, Mass., as an indentured servant to another man. No parents known. No siblings known."

[CASteinman]

**** Ooops I see that Okrahomer explained this already. Sorry ***

Smith was the family name.

His paternal ancestor (named Smith) came from Sutterton in Lincolnshire, England.

Were you aware of this:

http://www.deseretne...ish.html?pg=all

They found that the SMITH DNA does not match any of the SMITH DNA from that part of England. I have read somewhere (probably in all my Genealogy research) that although the ancestry came from Ireland, SMITH was not a likely last name for a variety of reasons.

Here is a quote:

Finally, Perego looked at a study published in 2006 that dealt with this same area of Ireland. A Y chromosome profile had been found that was attributed to the many descendants of "Niall of the Nine Hostages," a fifth-century Irish warlord who was the ancestor of the kings of Ireland up to the 10th century. Perego compared that Y chromosome with Joseph Smith's profile and found they matched very closely. This was another indication that Smith's ancestors along his paternal line were not just Irish, but probably related to Irish royalty.

"Perhaps this indentured servant, this 12-year-old boy, was an Irish descendent, perhaps only one or two generations before they were living in Ireland ... and moved to England," Perego said. "Irish people were not viewed too well in England, perhaps there was a surname change. Perhaps Smith was not a Smith, was something else at some point."

Perego speculated the Irish Smiths were likely not in England for many generations, otherwise he would have found a lot of genetic matches from the samples he collected from the English Smiths who live now in that area.

"I hope that that doesn't change anybody's testimony here," he joked. "I feel OK about the Irish people."

Edited March 21, 2013 by CASteinman

[EllenMaksoud]

**** Ooops I see that Okrahomer explained this already. Sorry ***

Were you aware of this:

http://www.deseretne...ish.html?pg=all

They found that the SMITH DNA does not match any of the SMITH DNA from that part of England. I have read somewhere (probably in all my Genealogy research) that although the ancestry came from Ireland, SMITH was not a likely last name for a variety of reasons.

Here is a quote:

It is really interesting to read about the heritage of Joseph Smith and it is not surprising to find his ancestors were fugitives in the UK. A great many of those who left the UK after 1620 were the rejects of their home countries.

[CASteinman]

It is really interesting to read about the heritage of Joseph Smith and it is not surprising to find his ancestors were fugitives in the UK. A great many of those who left the UK after 1620 were the rejects of their home countries.

It is regrettable that there was probably a name change -- as that means this is probably the end of the genealogical story for now.

Still, we know that Joseph was descended from a very early Irish King. There are people who claim that these Irish Kings descend from the tribes of Judah. These claims relate to legendary times and are a mix of legend, speculation and sometimes fabrication. But maybe there's something in them that is true?

[cinepro]

Next month will be my first visit to Carthage Jail. I'd read somewhere that ever since the church bought it from the RLDS church (CoC) you no longer see the blood on the floor of JS. Is this true? Do you by chance know why, if true?

Nauvoo Trivia

2. Also when I was a boy, they would point out to you the stain on the floor from Hyrum’s blood where he fell. For many years it was actually under glass. Then they removed the glass and stopped referring to it. As it turns out, the stain wasn’t of Hyrum’s blood after all. When the Church acquired the jail, the son of the former owner said that the floor had been replaced, and the floorboards that are there now were cut with a type of saw that didn’t exist at the time the jail was first constructed.

[Alan]

**** Ooops I see that Okrahomer explained this already. Sorry ***

Were you aware of this:

http://www.deseretne...ish.html?pg=all

They found that the SMITH DNA does not match any of the SMITH DNA from that part of England. I have read somewhere (probably in all my Genealogy research) that although the ancestry came from Ireland, SMITH was not a likely last name for a variety of reasons.

Here is a quote:

Well that just goes to show that DNA is not as reliable as they would have us believe.

It is known that Joseph was descended from a Smith from Kirton (sorry, I said Sutterton before, but I meant Kirton) Lincolnshire. See www.josephsmithsr.com

Somewhere in one of Joseph's sermons he actually says "I am an Englishman". I had it marked when I was on my mission because I used to love showing it to my American companions!

On a serious note, it is practically impossible to differentiate between all of the nations of the British Isles. The Irish, Scots, Welsh and English are genetically identical.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Alan

[CASteinman]

Well that just goes to show that DNA is not as reliable as they would have us believe.

It is known that Joseph was descended from a Smith from Kirton (sorry, I said Sutterton before, but I meant Kirton) Lincolnshire. See www.josephsmithsr.com

Somewhere in one of Joseph's sermons he actually says "I am an Englishman". I had it marked when I was on my mission because I used to love showing it to my American companions!

Did you read about how the genealogical error is believed to have occurred? The evidence relating to Robert is the problem. It doesn't actually work (it seems).

[CASteinman]

On a serious note, it is practically impossible to differentiate between all of the nations of the British Isles. The Irish, Scots, Welsh and English are genetically identical.

Less serious first: I understand that man's DNA has about a 55% match to Banana DNA. And that a man's dna is about 98% matched with a Chimpanzee.

But women are a whole chromosome different -- like another species.

More serious now: All of my life from probably before I was a teenager, I have wondered about the human populations and migrations around the globe. It is still an area of strong interest for me. I would like to see some sort of animated presentation that shows large (cultural and genetic) migrations and mergings of people starting from anywhere between 12,000 and 6,000 BC to now. But I think we just don't have all of that data.

When someone claims to be from England -- where might their ancestry really be from say 3000 years ago?

I am slightly mentally ill on this sort of thing.. fascinated by it to a point of silliness. I feel an urge to know this and it will be probably the first or second issue I want to resolve when I have access to the internet library in heaven. I think about this quite a bit. As I said.. there is a touch of insanity on this one. It is, largely under control and I am not dangerous.

[EllenMaksoud]

Less serious first: I understand that man's DNA has about a 55% match to Banana DNA. And that a man's dna is about 98% matched with a Chimpanzee.

But women are a whole chromosome different -- like another species.

More serious now: All of my life from probably before I was a teenager, I have wondered about the human populations and migrations around the globe. It is still an area of strong interest for me. I would like to see some sort of animated presentation that shows large (cultural and genetic) migrations and mergings of people starting from anywhere between 12,000 and 6,000 BC to now. But I think we just don't have all of that data.

When someone claims to be from England -- where might their ancestry really be from say 3000 years ago?

I am slightly mentally ill on this sort of thing.. fascinated by it to a point of silliness. I feel an urge to know this and it will be probably the first or second issue I want to resolve when I have access to the internet library in heaven. I think about this quite a bit. As I said.. there is a touch of insanity on this one. It is, largely under control and I am not dangerous.

My brother had a DNA test done a few years ago, and found that our blood line is from Northern Europe 15,000 years ago. My Welsh friend says that the populations of England were Celts, Norse, Normans, and Roman and a few more I suppose. Another brother found that there is some evidence that says before the UK, we were in Alsace. It's hard to put it all together. There are family stories about our having lived in Canada, Lancaster, and Virginia (1735). In an article I read, it says that families that have lived along the Gulf of Mexico since before the Civil War have a 40% chance of having some African blood. I recently found out that my Mother's family were LDS (or some derivative) in the 1860's. So much to learn so little time.

[rpn]

Am I the only one who thinks that the "stain" was likely easily determined through dna NOT to be the prophet's blood by turn of this century? Unless it had been forensically tested, we shouldn't be proclaiming it such anyway. Do we really want to glorify blood that hadn't be adequately cleaned in a Mormon home? LOL

Edited March 22, 2013 by rpn

[CASteinman]

Am I the only one who thinks that the "stain" was likely easily determined through dna NOT to be the prophet's blood by turn of this century? Unless it had been forensically tested, we shouldn't be proclaiming it such anyway. Do we really want to glorify blood that hadn't be adequately cleaned in a Mormon home? LOL

Its hard to imagine that the DNA would have been preserved over this time, but if it were, I suspect it would be very hard to determine if it were Joseph's or Hyrum's.

Nevertheless, that it was there from the martyrdom was never questioned in all of its history. Well, I should say -- I have never heard of any question on this matter from informed sources.

Edited March 22, 2013 by CASteinman

[David T]

Its hard to imagine that the DNA would have been preserved over this time, but if it were, I suspect it would be very hard to determine if it were Joseph's or Hyrum's.

Nevertheless, that it was there from the martyrdom was never questioned in all of its history. Well, I should say -- I have never heard of any question on this matter from informed sources.

Did you not see Post 33?

[EllenMaksoud]

Did you not see Post 33?

I don't depend upon DNA tests and other proof to be convinced that our church is true. The changes and healing Heavenly Father has brought into my life since I was exposed to the teachings are so profound to me that I could not believe otherwise. I am sure that people on this board are finding my repeating those things "old hat".. However, I think the science exists now days to prove DNA that old, even in the boards. I suppose we have DNA from Joseph Smith? I have never heard where he is buried, maybe that is secret.

[David T]

I don't depend upon DNA tests and other proof to be convinced that our church is true. The changes and healing Heavenly Father has brought into my life since I was exposed to the teachings are so profound to me that I could not believe otherwise. I am sure that people on this board are finding my repeating those things "old hat".. However, I think the science exists now days to prove DNA that old, even in the boards. I suppose we have DNA from Joseph Smith? I have never heard where he is buried, maybe that is secret.

So you haven't. It has nothing to do with DNA. It points out that the boards in the Jail aren't even contemporary with the Martyrdom. It also has nothing to do with any of the Church's truth-claims.

[EllenMaksoud]

So you haven't. It has nothing to do with DNA. It points out that the boards in the Jail aren't even contemporary with the Martyrdom. It also has nothing to do with any of the Church's truth-claims.

I am not worried about the church's truth claims. For me the church is true, full stop. It has been enjoyable and informative to do this bit of research. I did notice today that there is what appears to be a new Wiki entitled simply, "Joseph Smith" that asserts Joseph smith had a pistol smuggled to him. This is the first time I have heard this and the story is credited to a man named Bushman. As the years go on I expect to read more lurid tales about his life.

Edited March 22, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[David T]

I am not worried about the church's truth claims. For me the church is true, full stop. It has been enjoyable and informative to do this bit of research. I did notice today that there is what appears to be a new Wiki entitled simply, "Joseph Smith" that asserts Joseph smith had a pistol smuggled to him. This is the first time I have heard this and the story is credited to a man named Bushman. As the years go on I expect to read more lurid tales about his life.

I'm pretty sure you and I are not talking about the same thing at all.

[CASteinman]

Did you not see Post 33?

Yep, I did miss it. I'd like to confirm it!

[CV75]

I have idly wondered if Heavenly Father allowed him to be killed because of his past?

On the other hand, I think it was because of Joseph's future, and it was time fro him to enter into it.

[EllenMaksoud]

On the other hand, I think it was because of Joseph's future, and it was time fro him to enter into it.

History is full of people who took a stand and died as a result. I do not live in a Mormon community, so I hear all sorts of tripe about JS, and it gets tiresome. Some times I feel like I must thrust and parry all day long. It is amazing to me to face such opposition because one of the most staunch critics of the church in my home is a woman that knew me before I ever encountered the Missionaries, and has seen the astonishing things that have happened to me. I'm no psychologist, but sometimes I wonder if the resistance is simply their own denial.

[Questing Beast]

...

I have idly wondered if Heavenly Father allowed him to be killed because of his past? No one is all bad or all good. Interestingly, the Wiki article contains conflicting explanations of the incident.

There is speculation that Brigham Young died of arsenic poisoning. If so, then the first two prophets were possibly "removed out of [their] place" rather than allowed to lead too long, i.e. inimically to the welfare of the LDS faith. I believe that if Joseph Smith had continued to lead the Mormons that he would have undone most of his own previous work. His theology was getting more weird with each pronouncement upon the details. And his marriage/sexual mores were already too out of step with American sensibilities. Joseph Smith wasn't going anywhere, so no "American Moses" role for him. Even if he had, as I said already, his religious "evolution" would have wrecked his religion.

God works all in all. Arguably, the Mormons have been prepared to be a huge influence for good in the world at a strategic time, yet future. So it was possibly to safeguard that religion in its infancy that its "founder" was taken young. He had done his work. And he said as much more than once shortly before his death. He lived enough in those fourteen years for two lifetimes. He was exhausted and ready to go, so he went....

[CASteinman]

There is speculation that Brigham Young died of arsenic poisoning. If so, then the first two prophets were possibly "removed out of [their] place" rather than allowed to lead too long, i.e. inimically to the welfare of the LDS faith. I believe that if Joseph Smith had continued to lead the Mormons that he would have undone most of his own previous work.

If .... if.... if..... speculations without good foundations. Yeah. And if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak

[EllenMaksoud]

There is speculation that Brigham Young died of arsenic poisoning. If so, then the first two prophets were possibly "removed out of [their] place" rather than allowed to lead too long, i.e. inimically to the welfare of the LDS faith. I believe that if Joseph Smith had continued to lead the Mormons that he would have undone most of his own previous work. His theology was getting more weird with each pronouncement upon the details. And his marriage/sexual mores were already too out of step with American sensibilities. Joseph Smith wasn't going anywhere, so no "American Moses" role for him. Even if he had, as I said already, his religious "evolution" would have wrecked his religion.

God works all in all. Arguably, the Mormons have been prepared to be a huge influence for good in the world at a strategic time, yet future. So it was possibly to safeguard that religion in its infancy that its "founder" was taken young. He had done his work. And he said as much more than once shortly before his death. He lived enough in those fourteen years for two lifetimes. He was exhausted and ready to go, so he went....

What you say is not without precedent. The Saul of the OT was replaced by David because he sinned, and then David sinned, (Boy did he!). Then Solomon fell into it with Idolatry and sorcery. The Saul of the NT was an accessory to murder numerous times. Moses struck the rock twice. Then of course Samson stepped in it too. It all makes me want to seclude myself in a nunnery and hide from the world, but it is too late for me. I already have so much that was forgiven by Heavenly Father because of the atonement. We search for heros to look up to, and there are none except for Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father.