What I Think I Know About Joseph Smith Jr.

[EllenMaksoud]

To be clear, I am a Mormon, and I do not intend this to be critical of him. I am just trying to clarify some things.

So, he was born in 1805, just two days before Christmas. He'd be just 6 years old when the war of 1812 started. I don't know a lot about that war but it seems as if the passage of the troops involved would go right through where he lived. He'd be almost 8 when it stuttered to a stop. A Welsh friend of mine says that the Brits could not devote a lot of time to the conflict, because they were busy dealing with Napoleon. That's most fortunate, because it appears as if the colonies had their hands full with Indian conflicst at the time, some of which the British financed, on the indian side. My friend says the conflict was a mere side show.

I am just trying to explore the conditions in society when JS lived.

So, Joseph Smith would be having the first of his visions in just a very few years, 1820 when he was 14. I remember myself at age 14 and while I did not have visions, I had powerful curiosity about the existence of God. I feel a sort of kinship with Joseph Smith Jr due to the similiarities of my own feelings. My stepfather, an inactive Amish man derided my own idealistic ideas about Heavenly Father, effectively snuffing out my enthusiasim. I find it interesting that while he taught me nothing about God, he was very effective in teaching and enforcing his ideas about Amish culture at our house. It still influences my way of living today.

So, in my research, it seems that the Industrial Revolution started around 1820 through about 1870. I lived in Ohio for a year, and toured as much as I could afford. There are renmants of Coal mines all over the place. Astabulla still bears the marks of industrial shipping and some of the old rail beds in the area are converted to bike trails. North East of Fairport Harbor is a huge land fill covering vast piles of radioactive waste left over from WWII. Though it's glory is gone, Cleveland still has industrial coal and iron ore activity and in a small river valley South of Cleveland, there is still a surealistic looking Steel Mill that looks like something out of "Road Warrior".

Unfortunately for poor Joseph Smith and his followers of the time, the industrial revolution had not yet really gotten going yet, and perhaps (not being an economist) it was people making assumptions about the brightness a future that were premateure, is what drove the worst Depression that started just right around the time the faithful had completed the Kirtland Temple. Various people interpret the events of the time differently, but I think that he just got caught up in a series of unfortunate events. My roomate harshly calls him a crook because of the failure of his bank of the time. I have reminded her that there were just lots of banks failing at the time, so he had lots of company. Unfortunately, Americans did not learn the lesson from the depression of 1837 and we had one almost as bad 100 years later.

I'm not going to comment on polygamy. Lots of people have tried it.

It is unclear to me why the Mormons were chased from Kirtland to Missouri and then to Illinois. Of course, having been Muslim, I have come to the conclusion that some people just have the hate gene. They seem to think that they can say we should love our brothers as long as they don't actually have to do it. I'm not really firm on why he was eventually shot our doctrine says it was persecution, but other resourses are less charitable. The Wiki account is interesting. It doesn't matter a lot to me because the things that convinced me most about the church are what it has become today, not its somewhat untidy past.

I have idly wondered if Heavenly Father allowed him to be killed because of his past? No one is all bad or all good. Interestingly, the Wiki article contains conflicting explanations of the incident.

[CASteinman]

This is one of the most interesting posts I have read on this board and the reason is that it weaves both personal views right from the heart into a review of history. That makes it extremely unusual to me. Its analytical without really being too cold and its heart felt without being too drippy.

You also mention some things I had never thought about -- particularly about the War of 1812. I never thought about that, in particular, having an influence.

I hope you will tolerate me bringing a few other things to your attention.

• Smith is the family name, but if you go back a few generations you will find the first immigrant to America (I think) was probably NOT named Smith -- and took that name because he was on the run. Probably from Ireland.
  
• When he was a young boy he had that leg infection that left him with a bit of a gimp for life and was healed almost as though by divine intervention -- certainly a remarkable set of circumstances.
  
• Both Napoleon and Andrew Jackson figured prominently as heros in this age. Surprisingly, Joseph Smith rarely discusses them in his time though they were both big deals. Once though, when a person observed Joseph eating at a table of all manner of people, a guest told Emma that he could save money by following the example of Napoleon and dining alone. Emma said: Joseph is a much bigger man than Napoleon and must always have a company of people around him.
  
• Krakatoa had a major influence on his life. 1816 was the year without a summer. That period was the last major subsistence threat to humanity, especially in Europe. and led to the Smith's basically becoming impoverished and moving to New York.
  
• Regarding the Kirtland Bank, for years people just had to take the word of whichever side said what. I believe that recently the entire set of books of the Kirtland Bank have been recovered and forensically audited. It turned out that Joseph Smith's dealings with the bank were honest, clean and above board.
  
• Part of the reason they were chased from Kirtland was also part of the reason that they were chased from Nauvoo: Money leading to Envy leading to Hatred. In the case of Kirtland, the economic times led to the bank failure and led to many people becoming impoverished. Joseph was hated because the people believed that he should have led them in a way that was safe or that he was actually somehow responsible for their fate. The hatred was extreme and he was nearly killed.
  I believe he was shot because of political issues, personal emnity from people Joseph crossed, and.. money. Plural marriage was a ruse and an excuse to work up sentiment against him, but not the reason. In particular, Joseph managed to purchase a lot of land that was swampland for a low price. When the saints fixed things up and it became a nice place to live, he would not sell it back to original citizens except at substantially increased prices. Couple this with the Saints claiming to be special people, with them massing up as generally Northern "Free the Slaves" types in a Slavery tolerating state and outnumbering the local citizens politically, and finally - having Nauvoo obtain a very special charter of Government that protected the Church and the Prophet created bitterness and hatred.
  He was, we believe, allowed to be killed because he had completed his mission and it is often found that prophets must die for their faith as a testimony of their dedication to it -- they "Seal" up their witness through their blood.
  I would recommend that you find a book "They Knew the Prophet". Once you read that book you will feel like you know him too. Its full of vignettes from his life by the people around him and contains stories you don't hear that much about him.
  

Edited March 21, 2013 by CASteinman

[Calm]

Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling is excellent for setting the context of the Prophet's life. It goes into his ancestors as well as his family's situation and how it was developed to the time he was born and afterwards. Very interesting. I also think it makes a great case for what Joseph was trying to accomplish---in essence bringing heaven down to earth, creating a celestial kingdom in the here and now.

It's been awhile since I've read it, but I think it goes into the reasons for the conflicts with the various surrounding communities as well as the apostasy among the church members.

For a more churchwide approach, I love Arrington and Bitton's The Mormon Experience. If you can't get these at your local library or through interlibrary loan, they are well worth the purchase price (both are available in paperback).

http://bookstore.fairlds.org/product.php?id_product=311

http://bookstore.fairlds.org/product.php?id_product=1372

Edited March 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nathair/|\]

You might find this series helpful. I'm only going to post one because I don't know if they are in copyright. One is fair use as I understand things, but posting all of them would be a violation.

[Calm]

I have idly wondered if Heavenly Father allowed him to be killed because of his past?

I agree with CAS, I think he was allowed to be killed to 'seal his testimony'. His martyrdom was hard on the faithful, but it also drew many of them closer together in bonds that couldn't be broken, not even by the suffering and hardship that was to come to the Church.

[ERayR]

To be clear, I am a Mormon, and I do not intend this to be critical of him. I am just trying to clarify some things.

So, he was born in 1805, just two days before Christmas. He'd be just 6 years old when the war of 1812 started. I don't know a lot about that war but it seems as if the passage of the troops involved would go right through where he lived. He'd be almost 8 when it stuttered to a stop. A Welsh friend of mine says that the Brits could not devote a lot of time to the conflict, because they were busy dealing with Napoleon. That's most fortunate, because it appears as if the colonies had their hands full with Indian conflicst at the time, some of which the British financed, on the indian side. My friend says the conflict was a mere side show.

I am just trying to explore the conditions in society when JS lived.

So, Joseph Smith would be having the first of his visions in just a very few years, 1820 when he was 14. I remember myself at age 14 and while I did not have visions, I had powerful curiosity about the existence of God. I feel a sort of kinship with Joseph Smith Jr due to the similiarities of my own feelings. My stepfather, an inactive Amish man derided my own idealistic ideas about Heavenly Father, effectively snuffing out my enthusiasim. I find it interesting that while he taught me nothing about God, he was very effective in teaching and enforcing his ideas about Amish culture at our house. It still influences my way of living today.

So, in my research, it seems that the Industrial Revolution started around 1820 through about 1870. I lived in Ohio for a year, and toured as much as I could afford. There are renmants of Coal mines all over the place. Astabulla still bears the marks of industrial shipping and some of the old rail beds in the area are converted to bike trails. North East of Fairport Harbor is a huge land fill covering vast piles of radioactive waste left over from WWII. Though it's glory is gone, Cleveland still has industrial coal and iron ore activity and in a small river valley South of Cleveland, there is still a surealistic looking Steel Mill that looks like something out of "Road Warrior".

Unfortunately for poor Joseph Smith and his followers of the time, the industrial revolution had not yet really gotten going yet, and perhaps (not being an economist) it was people making assumptions about the brightness a future that were premateure, is what drove the worst Depression that started just right around the time the faithful had completed the Kirtland Temple. Various people interpret the events of the time differently, but I think that he just got caught up in a series of unfortunate events. My roomate harshly calls him a crook because of the failure of his bank of the time. I have reminded her that there were just lots of banks failing at the time, so he had lots of company. Unfortunately, Americans did not learn the lesson from the depression of 1837 and we had one almost as bad 100 years later.

I'm not going to comment on polygamy. Lots of people have tried it.

It is unclear to me why the Mormons were chased from Kirtland to Missouri and then to Illinois. Of course, having been Muslim, I have come to the conclusion that some people just have the hate gene. They seem to think that they can say we should love our brothers as long as they don't actually have to do it. I'm not really firm on why he was eventually shot our doctrine says it was persecution, but other resourses are less charitable. The Wiki account is interesting. It doesn't matter a lot to me because the things that convinced me most about the church are what it has become today, not its somewhat untidy past.

I have idly wondered if Heavenly Father allowed him to be killed because of his past? No one is all bad or all good. Interestingly, the Wiki article contains conflicting explanations of the incident.

This post is really good and the only thing I would comment on is that Joseph was martyred as many prophets have been to seal his testimony to the world.

[EllenMaksoud]

This is one of the most interesting posts I have read on this board and the reason is that it weaves both personal views right from the heart into a review of history. That makes it extremely unusual to me. Its analytical without really being too cold and its heart felt without being too drippy.

You also mention some things I had never thought about -- particularly about the War of 1812. I never thought about that, in particular, having an influence.

I hope you will tolerate me bringing a few other things to your attention.

• Smith is the family name, but if you go back a few generations you will find the first immigrant to America (I think) was probably NOT named Smith -- and took that name because he was on the run. Probably from Ireland.
  
• When he was a young boy he had that leg infection that left him with a bit of a gimp for life and was healed almost as though by divine intervention -- certainly a remarkable set of circumstances.
  
• Both Napoleon and Andrew Jackson figured prominently as heros in this age. Surprisingly, Joseph Smith rarely discusses them in his time though they were both big deals. Once though, when a person observed Joseph eating at a table of all manner of people, a guest told Emma that he could save money by following the example of Napoleon and dining alone. Emma said: Joseph is a much bigger man than Napoleon and must always have a company of people around him.
  
• Krakatoa had a major influence on his life. 1816 was the year without a summer. That period was the last major subsistence threat to humanity, especially in Europe. and led to the Smith's basically becoming impoverished and moving to New York.
  
• Regarding the Kirtland Bank, for years people just had to take the word of whichever side said what. I believe that recently the entire set of books of the Kirtland Bank have been recovered and forensically audited. It turned out that Joseph Smith's dealings with the bank were honest, clean and above board.
  
• Part of the reason they were chased from Kirtland was also part of the reason that they were chased from Nauvoo: Money leading to Envy leading to Hatred. In the case of Kirtland, the economic times led to the bank failure and led to many people becoming impoverished. Joseph was hated because the people believed that he should have led them in a way that was safe or that he was actually somehow responsible for their fate. The hatred was extreme and he was nearly killed.
  I believe he was shot because of political issues, personal emnity from people Joseph crossed, and.. money. Plural marriage was a ruse and an excuse to work up sentiment against him, but not the reason. In particular, Joseph managed to purchase a lot of land that was swampland for a low price. When the saints fixed things up and it became a nice place to live, he would not sell it back to original citizens except at substantially increased prices. Couple this with the Saints claiming to be special people, with them massing up as generally Northern "Free the Slaves" types in a Slavery tolerating state and outnumbering the local citizens politically, and finally - having Nauvoo obtain a very special charter of Government that protected the Church and the Prophet created bitterness and hatred.
  He was, we believe, allowed to be killed because he had completed his mission and it is often found that prophets must die for their faith as a testimony of their dedication to it -- they "Seal" up their witness through their blood.
  I would recommend that you find a book "They Knew the Prophet". Once you read that book you will feel like you know him too. Its full of vignettes from his life by the people around him and contains stories you don't hear that much about him.
  

I was thinking that the Irish Potato famine was part of the mix, but that came around 1845, and I think it helped to drive imigration to America later. I have often felt that many Irish and Scots became part of the church in America. Both sides of my Family are from the UK, one perhaps having been Amish as I know the name appears in the grave yard in Lancaster, PA. The Webb side of my family may have been LDS in the 1860's but I have not been able to explore that yet.

It is comforting to find that they have been able to aquit him of abuse in regard of the Kirtland Bank.

As far as religous hatred is concerned, I encountered some as a Muslim since people were going around making red neck statements that I felt were inspired by drinking a lot and then pontificating. I have been called a terrorist and a rag head, but those who did it were not a force to be reconned with.

This is one of the nicest comments anyone has ever made about my writing. Thank you so much.

[EllenMaksoud]

This post is really good and the only thing I would comment on is that Joseph was martyred as many prophets have been to seal his testimony to the world.

Well, I am here to learn. Thank you for the complement.

[Tacenda]

I agree with CAS, I think he was allowed to be killed to 'seal his testimony'. His martyrdom was hard on the faithful, but it also drew many of them closer together in bonds that couldn't be broken, not even by the suffering and hardship that was to come to the Church.

In The Work & the Glory Book Series it describes how he goes out on a boat and is going to escape going to Carthage but then he reads a note from Emma urging him to come back home and face his persecuters. And he knows then he is going to probably die.

[MormonMason]

Joseph Smith actually had stated that if he and Hyrum "were ever taken again we should be slain--or I am not a prophet of God." He knew well that he was going to die when he went back. I recall him saying something to the effect of: "Well, if my life is of no use to my friends it is of no use to myself." After saying that he turned back and went to Carthage. The rest is history.

[Tacenda]

Joseph Smith actually had stated that if he and Hyrum "were ever taken again we should be slain--or I am not a prophet of God." He knew well that he was going to die when he went back. I recall him saying something to the effect of: "Well, if my life is of no use to my friends it is of no use to myself." After saying that he turned back and went to Carthage. The rest is history.

Next month will be my first visit to Carthage Jail. I'd read somewhere that ever since the church bought it from the RLDS church (CoC) you no longer see the blood on the floor of JS. Is this true? Do you by chance know why, if true?

[tyler90az]

To be clear, I am a Mormon, and I do not intend this to be critical of him. I am just trying to clarify some things.

So, he was born in 1805, just two days before Christmas. He'd be just 6 years old when the war of 1812 started. I don't know a lot about that war but it seems as if the passage of the troops involved would go right through where he lived. He'd be almost 8 when it stuttered to a stop. A Welsh friend of mine says that the Brits could not devote a lot of time to the conflict, because they were busy dealing with Napoleon. That's most fortunate, because it appears as if the colonies had their hands full with Indian conflicst at the time, some of which the British financed, on the indian side. My friend says the conflict was a mere side show.

I am just trying to explore the conditions in society when JS lived.

So, Joseph Smith would be having the first of his visions in just a very few years, 1820 when he was 14. I remember myself at age 14 and while I did not have visions, I had powerful curiosity about the existence of God. I feel a sort of kinship with Joseph Smith Jr due to the similiarities of my own feelings. My stepfather, an inactive Amish man derided my own idealistic ideas about Heavenly Father, effectively snuffing out my enthusiasim. I find it interesting that while he taught me nothing about God, he was very effective in teaching and enforcing his ideas about Amish culture at our house. It still influences my way of living today.

So, in my research, it seems that the Industrial Revolution started around 1820 through about 1870. I lived in Ohio for a year, and toured as much as I could afford. There are renmants of Coal mines all over the place. Astabulla still bears the marks of industrial shipping and some of the old rail beds in the area are converted to bike trails. North East of Fairport Harbor is a huge land fill covering vast piles of radioactive waste left over from WWII. Though it's glory is gone, Cleveland still has industrial coal and iron ore activity and in a small river valley South of Cleveland, there is still a surealistic looking Steel Mill that looks like something out of "Road Warrior".

Unfortunately for poor Joseph Smith and his followers of the time, the industrial revolution had not yet really gotten going yet, and perhaps (not being an economist) it was people making assumptions about the brightness a future that were premateure, is what drove the worst Depression that started just right around the time the faithful had completed the Kirtland Temple. Various people interpret the events of the time differently, but I think that he just got caught up in a series of unfortunate events. My roomate harshly calls him a crook because of the failure of his bank of the time. I have reminded her that there were just lots of banks failing at the time, so he had lots of company. Unfortunately, Americans did not learn the lesson from the depression of 1837 and we had one almost as bad 100 years later.

I'm not going to comment on polygamy. Lots of people have tried it.

It is unclear to me why the Mormons were chased from Kirtland to Missouri and then to Illinois. Of course, having been Muslim, I have come to the conclusion that some people just have the hate gene. They seem to think that they can say we should love our brothers as long as they don't actually have to do it. I'm not really firm on why he was eventually shot our doctrine says it was persecution, but other resourses are less charitable. The Wiki account is interesting. It doesn't matter a lot to me because the things that convinced me most about the church are what it has become today, not its somewhat untidy past.

I have idly wondered if Heavenly Father allowed him to be killed because of his past? No one is all bad or all good. Interestingly, the Wiki article contains conflicting explanations of the incident.

You might like this book Nauvoo

[EllenMaksoud]

Next month will be my first visit to Carthage Jail. I'd read somewhere that ever since the church bought it from the RLDS church (CoC) you no longer see the blood on the floor of JS. Is this true? Do you by chance know why, if true?

I don't know.

I am frustrated because at Christmas of 2010 I made a side trip to Muscatain, Iowa. That is only about a two hour drive to Navoo. Of course, at that time I was still firmly Muslim, so it was not time.

[tyler90az]

Next month will be my first visit to Carthage Jail. I'd read somewhere that ever since the church bought it from the RLDS church (CoC) you no longer see the blood on the floor of JS. Is this true? Do you by chance know why, if true?

Gods glory is life not death.

[CASteinman]

As far as religous hatred is concerned, I encountered some as a Muslim since people were going around making red neck statements that I felt were inspired by drinking a lot and then pontificating. I have been called a terrorist and a rag head, but those who did it were not a force to be reconned with.

I think that there is so much going on with Muslims and Islam in the world that there is no 'statement' that can be made to categorize them very well. But weirdly that is exactly how Americans tend to look at muslims. Like they are all one 'raghead' group. I actually see this at one of the places I work where I sometimes speak up for Muslims in a community of people who do not have the time to actually study the people that they find contemptible. I speak up for them boldly and (just like here in this forum now that I think about it) people do not like what I have to say. I suppose I am a gadfly. Maybe I don't say it in a way that helps my cause. In any case, at this place where I work sometimes they have labeled me the "MusSimp" for "Muslim Sympathizer". But this sort of thing does not bother me. I say "yes, exactly!" and go on.

I am sorry you have faced this issue. I actually feel some generosity toward muslim women who wear modest clothing and headdress and I always try to make it a point look them directly in the face and get their eyes and make sure that they can see that I notice them as a person because I suspect they get overlooked or people are afraid of them.

Having said that, the stereotypes are not entirely without a reason. Islam is in turmoil and troubles around the world seem to be centered near or around muslim populations. This creates suspicion.

[CASteinman]

Next month will be my first visit to Carthage Jail. I'd read somewhere that ever since the church bought it from the RLDS church (CoC) you no longer see the blood on the floor of JS. Is this true? Do you by chance know why, if true?

It was there the last time I saw it. But that was -- 1988? I think though, they put a rug over it?

Edited March 21, 2013 by CASteinman

[Tacenda]

I don't know.

I am frustrated because at Christmas of 2010 I made a side trip to Muscatain, Iowa. That is only about a two hour drive to Navoo. Of course, at that time I was still firmly Muslim, so it was not time.

I think I'm coming to a final phase in my faith crisis and this IS my time to be there. If any earlier in this crisis, my attitude would have been terrible and suspicious. Now coming full circle it has brought me back to a different faith than before but better and hopefully building. I'm excited to see Ohio and Amish country too. I get to be in a little bit of your former life Ellen!

[Tacenda]

It was there the last time I saw it. But that was -- 1988? I think though, they put a rug over it?

That's probably what I had read.

[EllenMaksoud]

I think that there is so much going on with Muslims and Islam in the world that there is no 'statement' that can be made to categorize them very well. But weirdly that is exactly how Americans tend to look at muslims. Like they are all one 'raghead' group. I actually see this at one of the places I work where I sometimes speak up for Muslims in a community of people who do not have the time to actually study the people that they find contemptible. I speak up for them boldly and (just like here in this forum now that I think about it) people do not like what I have to say. I suppose I am a gadfly. Maybe I don't say it in a way that helps my cause. In any case, at this place where I work sometimes they have labeled me the "MusSimp" for "Muslim Sympathizer". But this sort of thing does not bother me. I say "yes, exactly!" and go on.

I am sorry you have faced this issue. I actually feel some generosity toward muslim women who wear modest clothing and headdress and I always try to make it a point look them directly in the face and get their eyes and make sure that they can see that I notice them as a person because I suspect they get overlooked or people are afraid of them.

Having said that, the stereotypes are not entirely without a reason. Islam is in turmoil and troubles around the world seem to be centered near or around muslim populations. This creates suspicion.

I struggled greatly with changing back to American culture. The Muslim religion will always be with me, because as far as I am concerned Muslims are a great deal like Mormons, except they do not show Jesus Christ proper respect. I have permission to wear my hijab at church, and whether it be my Amish background or my Muslim background, I am still very modest. I have tried to abandon my Muslim modesty and dress like Mormon women and it is trying. Not that Mormon women are not modest, but my knees are not a thing of beauty.

In Islam, a woman can look a man in the eyes ONCE. She is not to smile at him or look twice. Perhaps it would be easier for them if you simply said Salaam Alaykum as a greeting. If they say Salaam Alaykum to you, then the correct response is Wa Alaykum Salaam.

I am finally able to look a man in the eyes and speak to him, but NOW I have been corrected for flirting. Wallah! What is a woman to do? I may be the only woman to ever have told the Stake President that it was the prophet Muhammad PBUH and my belief in the Qur'an that made the leap to Joseph Smith and the Bom easier.

Edited March 21, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[MormonMason]

Next month will be my first visit to Carthage Jail. I'd read somewhere that ever since the church bought it from the RLDS church (CoC) you no longer see the blood on the floor of JS. Is this true? Do you by chance know why, if true?

If I recall correctly, it is true. It was sanded off the floor boards when they were refinished. A Church hymn was modified afterward as well. In Praise to the Man, the phrase "Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, \ Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame." originally read "Long shall his blood which was shed by assassins, \ Stain Illinois, while the earth lauds his fame."

See the original here:

http://archive.org/stream/latterdaysaintsp00chur?ui=embed#page/n231/mode/2up

If I recall correctly, the changes came as reciprocation for an official apology for the martyrdom from the State of Illinois.

Edited March 21, 2013 by MormonMason

[CASteinman]

If I recall correctly, it is true. It was sanded off the floor boards when they were refinished. A Church hymn was modified afterward as well. In Praise to the Man, the phrase "Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, \ Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame." originally read "Long shall his blood which was shed by assassins, \ Stain Illinois, while the earth lauds his fame."

The change in the wording to the hymn was in place when I joined the Church in 1974 but the stain was still at Carthage -- according to tours back then.

[Tacenda]

If I recall correctly, it is true. It was sanded off the floor boards when they were refinished. A Church hymn was modified afterward as well. In Praise to the Man, the phrase "Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, \ Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame." originally read "Long shall his blood which was shed by assassins, \ Stain Illinois, while the earth lauds his fame."

I'm sorry to drag this subject on but just wanted to say... since I was a little girl I've wanted to see this, I guess it was given a little too much fanfare back then and for some reason it's sanded off. Maybe similar to the belief of the Saviour, as stated by Tyler90, we want to celebrate his life not death.

[EllenMaksoud]

I think I'm coming to a final phase in my faith crisis and this IS my time to be there. If any earlier in this crisis, my attitude would have been terrible and suspicious. Now coming full circle it has brought me back to a different faith than before but better and hopefully building. I'm excited to see Ohio and Amish country too. I get to be in a little bit of your former life Ellen!

Oh, to be clear, we did not have an Amish farm, but he had certain Amish attitudes. When my brothers got sick of using the horse to plow with, they went out and bought a tractor. He threw a fit. He was against having a clothes dryer in the house, and was opposed to an indoor toilet. Mother fought long and hard to have some of the things she wanted in the house. One place that Mother yielded to him over was that no female would leave the farm in pants. We did not wear pants under our dresses as is seen with the Amish. Females also had to wear a scarf when off the property; perhaps one of the reasons I took to the hijab so easily.

[MormonMason]

For those readers here unfamiliar with the Arabic greeting phrases that our sister Ellen discusses, here are the proper greetings and their meaning.

Salaam Alaykum = "Peace (be) upon you" or "Peace to you"

Wa Alaykum Salaam = "And upon you (be) peace" or "And to you peace."

[CASteinman]

I actually know a teensy bit of Arabic. I lived in Saudi Arabia for a while and learned it. But I have forgotten a lot too.