Activism In The Church: Women And Prayer

[CASteinman]

If this is the case, then why are men praying more than women in General Conference...whether it be a vocal prayer or sung?

Are they? I have never taken a count. I know in most sessions the choir has the appearance of being equally divided and the I do not notice all men and all women's choirs out of balance. But I admit to not really paying attention to this.

What is your source for the data on this?

I understand but that does not make for a justification of limited vocal prayer, not sung, based on gender.

Are you sure? What is your reference for that specific idea?

Tell me then, what are you praying for during a hymn?

It would depend upon the hymn. Sometimes exactly what the hymns words are reading out as. Sometimes I am, frankly lost in other thoughts. And sometimes I'm just reflecting on spiritual things during music.

About that reference that I asked for and that you are responding to here-- do you have it?

I understand that but such prayers should not be limited to this based on gender. That is silly.

As far as I know they aren't.

Can you give an official, doctrinal and canonical reference that women's prayers in an official capacity is to be limited to music?

Did you see me make such a claim that I should have to support it?

D&C isn't even making such an argument.

I have not noticed that D&C makes "arguments" so I would not expect to find one there. Its more like pronouncements and commandments. For example "The Song of the Righteous is a Prayer".

So I don't believe that you are justifying your case.

If by "Justify", you mean "prove to be valid by reference to authority", I think the only way you can think that is to ignore the Scripture I gave you.

[Calm]

You know exactly what she meant. No need to be coy about it.

[CASteinman]

You know exactly what she meant. No need to be coy about it.

I saw what she said. She said it right out. It was not confusing to me. If you think a direct reply is coy, you have a odd standard for coy which means "shy".

You are derailing threads with your verbal games again. You will be removed when you clog up threads.

[CV75]

In two weeks we will find out if women will pray in General Conference. If this comes to pass, is this a sign that activism can change the church? And if so, will we see more activism to push the church in directions it may not have moved without advocacy?

Would Adam and Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit without the devil’s activism? If “yes, eventually” is the pattern, then no, external activism is not necessarily at the root of change.

If the Lord is the pattern, then righteous external activism will always lead to change (“…every knee will bow…”).

I think there will always be activism of some kind or another, both righteous and unrighteous.

[Calm]

In my opinion, activism has been slowly growing as a part of societies across the world over the past centuries. The internet has made it so it requires little thought and/or effort to be an 'activist' where once at least one had to leave one's house to participate in demonstrations and such (though one could always write letters....if one was literate).

I think the Church will learn to adapt and make the best use of this aspect of the greater society in which it lives in as it has learned to make great use of other social attributes.

[canard78]

Shouldn't God be teaching correct principles instead of letting people carry on because they aren't ready for correct principles?

He has: "be excellent to each other" (or love God and love your neighbour). The rest is just process for achieving the same.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In two weeks we will find out if women will pray in General Conference. If this comes to pass, is this a sign that activism can change the church? And if so, will we see more activism to push the church in directions it may not have moved without advocacy?

I have heard women pray in Conference before as well as speak.

[canard78]

I have heard women pray in Conference before as well as speak.

RSoc session? Every journalist in the mormon bubble has been scouring the records for a woman praying in conference. You might have solved their problem (no-ones found one yet)

[The Grimace]

Would Adam and Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit without the devil’s activism? If “yes, eventually” is the pattern, then no, external activism is not necessarily at the root of change.

If the Lord is the pattern, then righteous external activism will always lead to change (“…every knee will bow…”).

I think there will always be activism of some kind or another, both righteous and unrighteous.

So the devil wasn't evil, he was an activist for good?

[Brenda]

If women start praying in GC, I don't see this as big enough to be called "change in the Church". Most of us never noticed they hadn't been praying, and wouldn't notice anything new if they start praying. Whoever assigns the prayers probably never thought about it either. He probably was just including some of the many Seventies who get few opportunities to speak in GC.

IMO, the assumption that women had not been asked to pray due to some preference for men, is unfounded and unfair.

[Tacenda]

http://feministmormonhousewivespodcast.org/fmh-podcast-bonus-episode-equal-pray-for-women/

Listening to this podcast right now. Kind of the base camp for the "pray in conference" women.

[Brenda]

http://feministmormonhousewivespodcast.org/fmh-podcast-bonus-episode-equal-pray-for-women/

Listening to this podcast right now. Kind of the base camp for the "pray in conference" women.

I used your link (thanks) and listened. Can I be honest? I feel frustrated. I see so many problems with what they were saying. They talk about their pain and struggles. How does the Church cause them pain? I'm trying to understand, but It doesn't make sense to me. The Church has always been my sanctuary. How can our experiences be so different? They talk about being attacked by members who disagree with them. But what about the response they give back? I spoke up in Facebook and felt their anger, when I disagreed with them. I was told I was being mean and insensitive. I was told to go away. They wanted me to hear them, but they didn't want to hear me. In the podcast, they spoke unfairly of the non-feminists, as they think we are speaking of them. Of course they got criticism, but it goes both ways. Also, there were militant ex-LDS, and anti-Mormons jumping in and getting their digs in at the Church, on the Facebook page. How is this healthy?

So many never noticed that women never prayed in GC, yet when they learned of it, suddenly it was a source of pain? Does that make sense? I saw a lot of defensiveness and being too easily offended. Iow, I saw in them, what they pinned on me. Is it possible that, and I'm only suggesting this ... That there is an allure, or an appeal, about having a cause? Kind of like being in love with love, rather than being in love with someone? I mean, enjoying the adrenaline from fighting for something, or going against the tide? I can't help but wonder if this might possibly fuel their passion, rather than the Spirit, as they say? But then again, I have to be careful about being judgemental.

So what do I do? Do I speak up? Or just keep quiet and listen? I really don't know.

Again, I'm just trying to make sense of it.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Brenda

[rongo]

You've hit the nail on the head, Brenda. And it's much better coming from a woman, because coming from a man, it has no credibility.

[Brenda]

You've hit the nail on the head, Brenda. And it's much better coming from a woman, because coming from a man, it has no credibility.

Trust me, ANYONE who disagrees, regardless of gender, lacks credibility.

[rongo]

Trust me, ANYONE who disagrees, regardless of gender, lacks credibility.

For that reason, I really hope that only men pray this conference. I have no problem with women praying in conference, but I don't like the Church dancing while being pistol-whipped. Or "these people" thinking that they have made the Church dance.

[Tacenda]

So what do I do? Do I speak up? Or just keep quiet and listen? I really don't know.

Again, I'm just trying to make sense of it.

Maybe just hope it all goes away? It's tough when there is a divide. I'm surprised that some people aren't in hot water yet. I was young when the Sonia Johnson fiasco occurred but apparently she was ex'ed for things she wanted. But these women seem to think they can about do whatever they want nowadays. Maybe that's why they're a loose cannon. It never really bothered me that no women prayed, I hadn't noticed and still don't give it much thought. What does bother me in conference is the "primary" voice when women speak, but the men speak with a certain tone too. I'm just being nit picky I guess, just like the women that want to pray in conference.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Tacenda

[The Grimace]

I used your link (thanks) and listened. Can I be honest? I feel frustrated. I see so many problems with what they were saying. They talk about their pain and struggles. How does the Church cause them pain? I'm trying to understand, but It doesn't make sense to me. The Church has always been my sanctuary. How can our experiences be so different?

Doesn't matter. Your experience is different, and so you act different. Their experience is different, and so they act different. How is that hard to understand?

[The Grimace]

But these women seem to think they can about do whatever they want nowadays.

Um.....

[Tacenda]

Um.....

Um what Grimace? There were rules to the game before, but now anything goes apparently, not anything wrong with it as long as it doesn't bring down the whole church. Just wondering how long it's gonna take the church leaders to see. Or maybe we are just going to be a Christ centered church and not be dogmatic, who knows.

[Brenda]

Doesn't matter. Your experience is different, and so you act different. Their experience is different, and so they act different. How is that hard to understand?

But it seems, (and I could be wrong!) that they assume their experience is the norm. I think their experience was the exception, and if they were mistreated in any way, no matter how slight, it was wrong. The Church does not condone unrighteous dominion. The finest men, and those from whom I always saw the most respect towards women, I find in the Church. If only the rest of society was as respectful.

When you feel something is unfairly criticized, do you say something? Do you defend it? What do you do? I'm open for suggestions.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Brenda

[Brenda]

For that reason, I really hope that only men pray this conference. I have no problem with women praying in conference, but I don't like the Church dancing while being pistol-whipped. Or "these people" thinking that they have made the Church dance.

That was my initial reaction, but I am trying to see these people as my brothers and sisters, and that their feelings are important. That's why I listened to the podcast. IOW, I'm trying to be humble here. It's not easy, and I'm like a mother bear where the Church is concerned, but I'm trying.

[The Grimace]

But it seems, (and I could be wrong!) that they assume their experience is the norm. I think their experience was the exception, and if they were mistreated in any way, no matter how slight, it was wrong. The Church does not condone unrighteous dominion. The finest men, and those from whom I always saw the most respect towards women, I find in the Church. If only the rest of society was as respectful.

When you feel something is unfairly criticized, do you say something? Do you defend it? What do you do? I'm open for suggestions.

I dislike the 'mistreatment' narrative because I believe it masks the true point of this movement: separate cultural Mormonism from doctrinal Mormonism. Movements such as "Wear Pants to Church" and "Let Women Pray" are meant to say, "Look, there is no doctrine barring women from doing X, so why can't we have equality in this area?"

I'd feel the same about "Let Men Grow Beards" or "Pastel Brothers Unite" - remove the power structures that are based on cultural expectations and follow a purer form of Mormonism.

[Brenda]

I dislike the 'mistreatment' narrative because I believe it masks the true point of this movement: separate cultural Mormonism from doctrinal Mormonism. Movements such as "Wear Pants to Church" and "Let Women Pray" are meant to say, "Look, there is no doctrine barring women from doing X, so why can't we have equality in this area?"

I'd feel the same about "Let Men Grow Beards" or "Pastel Brothers Unite" - remove the power structures that are based on cultural expectations and follow a purer form of Mormonism.

The point of the movement seemed to be all over the place. It depended on who you talked to. It really was confusing. There is no rule about wearing pants to church. And no one objects to women praying in any meeting. LIkewise with beards or shirt colors. Wear what you want.

Maybe we all need to forget about what we're wearing and who is saying the prayers, and enjoy communion with the Spirit, and the privilege of holy ordinances. We've been offered a banquet, and some seem to worry so much about who gets a fork and who gets a spoon.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Brenda

[The Grimace]

The point of the movement seemed to be all over the place. It depended on who you talked to. It really was confusing. There is no rule about wearing pants to church. And no one objects to women praying in any meeting. LIkewise with beards or shirt colors. Wear what you want.

Maybe we all need to forget about what we're wearing and who is saying the prayers, and enjoy communion with the Spirit, and the privilege of holy ordinances. We've been offered a banquet, and some seem to worry so much about who gets a fork and who gets a spoon.

You and I must be going to different LDS churches, because beards, pink shirts, pants on women - those things are frowned upon and discussed in leadership meetings.

And we've never had a woman pray at General Conference.

[CV75]

So the devil wasn't evil, he was an activist for good?

Har-de-har har... So this thread isn't a real discussion, just a way to get some point across?