Activism In The Church: Women And Prayer

[Wanderer7]

Easy with the bad mouthing bud. I was an Episcopalian and I loved the full communion of fellowship.

I'm sorry that it came across negative. I don't consider Episcopals as bad people. My point was more that I'm in the LDS church for the fact that we're led by prophets and not the people. If I wanted a people-led religion, Episcopal would be my first choice!

Do not denigrate other religions on this board. One more insult and you are out of the thread.

[CASteinman]

I'm sorry that it came across negative. I don't consider Episcopals as bad people. My point was more that I'm in the LDS church for the fact that we're led by prophets and not the people. If I wanted a people-led religion, Episcopal would be my first choice!

I would go Catholic. I would avoid Anglican Community, Reform or Lutheran. I might, however, take a good look at Swedenborgian Churches.

This is off-topic. Everyone needs to get back on-topic.

[wenglund]

The activism thing is a little confusing to me.

On one hand: "not my will, but thine be done" - ie - keep quiet, nod your head, and trust what the prophet tells you to do.

On the other hand "ask and receive" ... if you don't ask, you won't receive - sort of like going and burying your talent or something. There is an element of being pro-active in it all, not just with grace/faith, but with work.

I guess the safe route to go is to pray for what your conscience directs you on, but end those prayers with "nevertheless, not my will but thine be done, if I ask for something amiss, please tell me no"...

My understanding of prayer is that the Spirit will guide us in what to pray for, and in this way we wont pray for what we ought not, but will simply give voice to what God desires for us. By so doing, the presumed conflict or tension between "thy will be done" and "ask and ye shall receive" is somewhat eliminated, and in a way becomes one-and-the same. Such is how we grow towards a oneness of heart and mind with God.

However, I get the impression that interlopers tend to be more interested in their own will than Gods, and bending God's will to their's, and so the tension between "thy will be done" and "ask and ye shall receive" is understandably magnified.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 20, 2013 by wenglund

[Brenda]

The activism thing is a little confusing to me.

on one hand: "not my will, but thine be done" - ie - keep quiet, nod your head, and trust what the prophet tells you to do.

on the other hand "ask and receive" ... if you don't ask, you won't receive - sort of like going and burying your talent or something. There is an element of being pro-active in it all, not just with grace/faith, but with work.

I guess the safe route to go is to pray for what your conscience directs you on, but end those prayers with "nevertheless, not my will but thine be done, if I ask for something amiss, please tell me no"...

It seems like it should be an individual thing though, not a mob/group... at least I only have authority over my own family, and myself... I would feel it was out of my jurisdiction to tell a bunch of people to write letters, or wear pants, or something... it seems like it's somehow wrong to tell others what to do, that it's better to just worry about yourself, and make it an individual matter.

I so agree. The public campaign to get others to write letters (or wear pants) felt wrong to me too. I don't know .... I'm trying very hard to be sympathetic to issues felt so deeply by others. I tend to jump to the defense of the Church, but listening is important in disagreements.

I feel that we are entitled to receive our own witness that we are indeed lead by a prophet called by God. And then we raise our hand to sustain him. Once that is done ..... do we continue to question? I don't, but then nothing the Prophet has said or done has ever bothered me. It's always been easy for me to go with the flow. Is that good? I don't know. I do know I need to try harder to understand those for whom it isn't so easy.

IMO, and I think this is how the Brethren have asked us to handle this .... that talking to local leaders is the right thing to do. They can't control who prays in GC, but they can address the real issue .... and that is the position of women in the Church. I see the Church paying more attention to that .... anyway, I'm now rambling .....

I disagree, I think there will be a lot more people watching the entire GC, paying close attention to whatever messages are accompanying the prayers.

I hope you're right. And I hope everyone listens with humility.

[Paloma]

I so agree. The public campaign to get others to write letters (or wear pants) felt wrong to me too. I don't know .... I'm trying very hard to be sympathetic to issues felt so deeply by others. I tend to jump to the defense of the Church, but listening is important in disagreements.

...

I hope you're right. And I hope everyone listens with humility.

Brenda, I think what you've said here is terribly important. I'm not LDS, but as a non-LDS Christian, I've had to handle some controversies.

You talk about listening and trying to understand and having humility (despite your not identifying with the people and with their concerns and with their approach).

I know from my own experience that defensiveness is counter-productive and tends to only exacerbate the angst and the disagreement.

Setting defensiveness aside and being willing to listen compassionately goes a long way! Everyone needs to feel they've been really heard and understood. Most people can respect that others disagree with them, especially when they know there's been an honest attempt to understand them without prejudgment.

[Calm]

My understanding of prayer is that the Spirit will guide us in what to pray for, and in this way we wont pray for what we ought not, but will simply give voice to what God desires for us.

It is not unusual though for there to be direction for local or regional fasts and prayers asked for from the pulpit, sometimes in response to individuals asking leaders for this...such as when a ward fasts for a particular family that has been having significant trouble.

[Calm]

And what's wrong with activism changing the church? It's doubt it is as prevalent as some of you have claimed, but why not allow the Church to be shaped by the people?

From the SL Trib article:

The drive generated about 1,600 letters from 300 participants

300 participants, likely some that do not attend the faith, is not a particularly impressive turnout...even if they managed to harness the media for their effort.

If that had been the only input on the subject over the years, I highly doubt any change would have taken place. But we have the evidence of the lowering of the age for young women to become missionaries...which will result in a dramatic change of the missionary demographics pretty shortly as well as some very effective in my view dynamic and not just reactive actions in dealing with the issue of gays in the Church that show to me at least the Church leadership is paying close attention to the needs of their members and has decided to make changes where they will be effective. The Neylan McBaine quote from DN link supports this view:

Neylan McBaine, a blogger, columnist and founder and editor-in-chief of The Mormon Women Project, has seen many indications “that our church leadership is not only aware of but proactively addressing the concerns of women church-wide.”

She pointed not just to the recent speculation that women might pray in conference but also to “the missionary age change, the new Young Women manuals and the ample anecdotal evidence of women being made more visible in local church meetings as leaders in their wards and stakes.”

“I’m optimistic that members at every level of leadership are asking themselves how to involve women more completely in visible, meaningful ways,” McBaine said.

Edited March 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

Did you not read it?

Of course I read it. But it would be ignorant to conflate the prayers spoken of in D&C 25 with a woman giving an opening or closing prayer at GC. You'll have to do better than that.

[CASteinman]

Of course I read it. But it would be ignorant to conflate the prayers spoken of in D&C 25 with a woman giving an opening or closing prayer at GC. You'll have to do better than that.

Well, first of all, if you had read it, you would see that the date of this revelation was of no relevance. For that reason I asked if you had read it. You did not seem to have noticed that the concept was not associated with a particular time.

Second, I do not see why anyone would have to do better than the Words of God.

Edited March 20, 2013 by CASteinman

[pogi]

Yikes! That's exactly why activism needs to get stomped out now. If I wanted a religion like that, I would become an episcopal.

Don't forget that the Lord runs this church, and it's not about what type of religion you want or what any activist group wants. Perhaps a little more faith in the ability of our leaders to perform God's will over the will of the activist groups, might help subdue your fears and live in peace with the activists. No power or influence can overturn the purposes of God.

[Damien the Leper]

Well, first of all, if you had read it, you would see that the date of this revelation was of no relevance. For that reason I asked if you had read it. You did not seem to have noticed that the concept was not associated with a particular time.

Second, I do not see why anyone would have to do better than the Words of God.

You're evading the point that I made. Women singing in church is not the equivalent of giving a prayer in Sacrament meeting or in GC. This can in no way be rationalized. If you're attempting to say that women never stopped praying you beg the question of what is a prayer? A woman singing during sacrament meeting on Sunday is not in any way the same thing as giving the opening or closing prayer or praying on her own at home. The scriptures don't even make such a naive assertion or assumption such as this. God is better than this and so are His scriptures.

[CASteinman]

You're evading the point that I made. Women singing in church is not the equivalent of giving a prayer in Sacrament meeting or in GC.

I did not evade that. I did not see you bring it up.

No two prayers are equal I suppose but God is the recipient and we are not the judges of their relative values or content.

Well, at least I am not.

This can in no way be rationalized.

Of course it can be. God has declared that the Songs of the Righteous are a prayer to Him. Women sing in General Conference. They are praying to God in General Conference. Some of the Songs are outright overt prayers in language and in form.

If you're attempting to say that women never stopped praying you beg the question of what is a prayer?

I don't think that is what I was saying, but I am not begging any question. I used the scriptural reference mentioned.

A woman singing during sacrament meeting on Sunday is not in any way the same thing as giving the opening or closing prayer or praying on her own at home.

I am not sure that they don't serve the same functions some of the time. Certainly not all of the time, but some of the time. So, I do not think I agree with you.

Do you have a reference that they are not equivalent?

The scriptures don't even make such a naive assertion or assumption such as this. God is better than this and so are His scriptures.

The Scriptures say "The song of the righteous is a prayer to me".

If you say that there is some other assumption or declaration to the contrary somewhere in the Scriptures or by God, please give out your source.

[wenglund]

It is not unusual though for there to be direction for local or regional fasts and prayers asked for from the pulpit, sometimes in response to individuals asking leaders for this...such as when a ward fasts for a particular family that has been having significant trouble.

True. In such cases the principles that I mentioned for individual prayer are likely enforce in collective prayer. The local leaders are inspired by God to have the members pray on certain people's behalf, and as they do so, there is a collective unifying of minds and hearts among the local membership and with God. It is wonderful. There is harmony, rather than tension, between "thy will be done" and "ask and ye shall receive."

I view this as in stark contrast to interloping activism by certain members of the Church and their cheer-leading critics.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[WmLaw]

I did not evade that. I did not see you bring it up.

No two prayers are equal I suppose but God is the recipient and we are not the judges of their relative values or content.

Well, at least I am not.

Of course it can be. God has declared that the Songs of the Righteous are a prayer to Him. Women sing in General Conference. They are praying to God in General Conference. Some of the Songs are outright overt prayers in language and in form.

I don't think that is what I was saying, but I am not begging any question. I used the scriptural reference mentioned.

I am not sure that they don't serve the same functions some of the time. Certainly not all of the time, but some of the time. So, I do not think I agree with you.

Do you have a reference that they are not equivalent?

The Scriptures say "The song of the righteous is a prayer to me".

If you say that there is some other assumption or declaration to the contrary somewhere in the Scriptures or by God, please give out your source.

This topic has always been in regard to offering the 'Invocation' and/or the 'Benediction' in GC.

[canard78]

Then it seems the people have power to change the church.

I think a more reasonable summary would be to say that God is willing to give blessings when his people are willing or wanting to receive it. It's always been a belief of mine that we don't know the day of the second coming because it's conditional on people. In other words, the second coming will only happen once the people do all the work needed to prepare the world for it.

So on the same token, the church can only change as the people are ready to receive that change. The word of wisdom only became a 'test of fellowship' when the members were ready to receive it as such.

Perhaps there were some members who would not have been ready to accept black members having the priesthood and so the ban was only lifted when the people were all ready for it.

We're taught that the WoW is designed for the weakest of the saints... the ones not asked to run faster than they have strength. I know there are aspect to the gospel where I lag a long way at the back... I'm glad the church sets the pace that I can just about keep up.

Perhaps the women praying is part of the process of the people demonstrating they are ready for change - and God blessing them accordingly, rather than people changing the church directly.

Or maybe not...

[CASteinman]

This topic has always been in regard to offering the 'Invocation' and/or the 'Benediction' in GC.

Hmmm.. the Title does not say that nor does the opening comment. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that your post was the very first time those two words even appear in this thread.

I think your assertion lacks evidence.

[Calm]

Hmmm.. the Title does not say that nor does the opening comment. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that your post was the very first time those two words even appear in this thread.

I think your assertion lacks evidence.

Right...because activists have been pushing for women to be able to sing in General Conference....

[Damien the Leper]

I did not evade that. I did not see you bring it up.

No two prayers are equal I suppose but God is the recipient and we are not the judges of their relative values or content.

Well, at least I am not.

Fine.

Of course it can be. God has declared that the Songs of the Righteous are a prayer to Him. Women sing in General Conference. They are praying to God in General Conference. Some of the Songs are outright overt prayers in language and in form.

No. It can't. If this is the case, then why are men praying more than women in General Conference...whether it be a vocal prayer or sung? They are still not the same.

I don't think that is what I was saying, but I am not begging any question. I used the scriptural reference mentioned.

I understand but that does not make for a justification of limited vocal prayer, not sung, based on gender.

I am not sure that they don't serve the same functions some of the time. Certainly not all of the time, but some of the time. So, I do not think I agree with you.

That's fine.

Do you have a reference that they are not equivalent?

Tell me then, what are you praying for during a hymn? Instead of focusing on the words of the hymn, what are you praying for? Or will you just give me a dismissive comment of "reflecting on spiritual things during music"?

The Scriptures say "The song of the righteous is a prayer to me".

I understand that but such prayers should not be limited to this based on gender. That is silly.

If you say that there is some other assumption or declaration to the contrary somewhere in the Scriptures or by God, please give out your source.

Can you give an official, doctrinal and canonical reference that women's prayers in an official capacity is to be limited to music? D&C isn't even making such an argument. So I don't believe that you are justifying your case.

[CASteinman]

Right...because activists have been pushing for women to be able to sing in General Conference....

They should not do that either.. because they already do sing. And pray. And give talks.

Edited March 20, 2013 by CASteinman

[Damien the Leper]

Right...because activists have been pushing for women to be able to sing in General Conference....

Thank you for the "duh" comment that I apparently haven't been able to type out. I'm outdone by a woman again!!

[canard78]

Right...because activists have been pushing for women to be able to sing in General Conference....

I also had to wonder where this is going when the thread ends up on who gets to sing - huh?

[Damien the Leper]

They should not do that either.. because they already do sing. And pray. And give talks.

You know exactly what she meant. No need to be coy about it.

[Damien the Leper]

I also had to wonder where this is going when the thread ends up on who gets to sing - huh?

Well, maybe if we stop the singing in GC then we can get all the church authorities to stop giving prayer as well so that there isn't any way of playing favorites. Also to balance out the game, there should be equal number of men and women giving talks in GC rather than a ratio of 4:1.

[The Grimace]

I think a more reasonable summary would be to say that God is willing to give blessings when his people are willing or wanting to receive it. It's always been a belief of mine that we don't know the day of the second coming because it's conditional on people. In other words, the second coming will only happen once the people do all the work needed to prepare the world for it.

So on the same token, the church can only change as the people are ready to receive that change. The word of wisdom only became a 'test of fellowship' when the members were ready to receive it as such.

Perhaps there were some members who would not have been ready to accept black members having the priesthood and so the ban was only lifted when the people were all ready for it.

We're taught that the WoW is designed for the weakest of the saints... the ones not asked to run faster than they have strength. I know there are aspect to the gospel where I lag a long way at the back... I'm glad the church sets the pace that I can just about keep up.

Perhaps the women praying is part of the process of the people demonstrating they are ready for change - and God blessing them accordingly, rather than people changing the church directly.

Or maybe not...

Shouldn't God be teaching correct principles instead of letting people carry on because they aren't ready for correct principles?

[Calm]

Shouldn't God be teaching correct principles instead of letting people carry on because they aren't ready for correct principles?

Who says he isn't?