Internal Conflict Over Lgbt Protest By Lds

[Calm]

For example:

http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/how-male-female-brains-differ

A recent study by Israeli researchers that examined male and female brains found distinct differences in thedeveloping fetus at just 26 weeks of pregnancy. The disparities could be seen when using an ultrasound scanner. The corpus callosum -- the bridge of nerve tissue that connects the right and left sides of the brain -- had a thicker measurement in female fetuses than in male fetuses.

I would be very impressed to see how the brains of fetuses are affected by social constructs.

[thesometimesaint]

I fully agree with your last statement.

1. Sinful thoughts is still behavior.

2. The Proclamation on the Family is Official

3. Yes. From your example it seems we should do so by the power of the priesthood. Sounds good to me.

Glenn

I. I don't believe that all thoughts are behaviors. Christ himself was tempted, but committed no sin.

2. But Official what? Right now it stands as a Proclamation nothing more. While I eagerly await seeing it my D&C. It isn't there yet. Maybe in this April General Conference.

3. While God can do pretty much what he wants. He seems to want us to do what we can then rely on him. IOW He isn't going to do something for us that we can do ourselves.

[Traela]

I simply do not believe that God would put a male spirit in a body with no Y chromosome and no male parts, or vice versa. If the body a person is born with does not match their DNA then sure, it's a birth defect that the person involved can resolve however he/she wants. But when the outside matches the inside? No, that's a problem in the brain and should be treated as such.

[Daniel2]

I simply do not believe that God would put a male spirit in a body with no Y chromosome and no male parts, or vice versa. If the body a person is born with does not match their DNA then sure, it's a birth defect that the person involved can resolve however he/she wants. But when the outside matches the inside? No, that's a problem in the brain and should be treated as such.

What leads you to believe that God wouldn't "put a male spirit in a body with no Y chromosome and no male parts"?

Do you believe God allows any of his children to be born into physical bodies that are different from their spiritual bodies? For example, do you believe that individuals born with dwarfism have spiritual bodies that display dwarfism, as well? Do individuals born with physical limbs that are missing have spirit bodies that are likewise missing limbs? Do individuals with Down's Syndrome have spiritual bodies that also reflect Down's? Or cerebral palsy? Or blindness? Or those with ambiguous (dual/both sets of) genitalia--hermaphrodites...?

Does God 'put' (or 'allow to be put') those spirits into physical bodies that do not match their spiritual bodies?

It seems to me that the doctrine of a pre-mortal, "gendered" spirit self and the belief that physical "accidents" can sometimes happen during gestation due to "imperfections" or flaws of the flesh/fallen state could actually fit quite nicely with the feelings of transgendered individuals who sincerely feel their inner (spiritual?) identity is of a certain gender, and that they were simply born into a physical body of the wrong gender (especially those who exhibit such signs from very young ages).

Daniel2

[Danzo]

You are misinformed about gender roles. Just as some are born with autism, dyslexia, etc. Transexuals feel they were born the wrong gender. It has nothing to do with their environment. Please do more research before saying what you have of it being a cultural thing. It's a slap in the face to those that have suffered terribly.

Do we have any other evidence than their "feelings"

People with autism and dyslexia are not cured by mutilating themselves.

Tell me, what you would think of someone who thought they were born with the wrong number of arms, and that they "feel that they would be happier if they cut one off"

[Danzo]

For example:

http://www.webmd.com...e-brains-differ

I would be very impressed to see how the brains of fetuses are affected by social constructs.

Should we measure the "corpus callosum' of all adult males and mutilate them if it isn't thick enough?

[Danzo]

I agree with Tacenda. There are many culturally determined concepts surrounding the sense of gender, but not all are social constructs and to dismiss those very strong and vital attributes because others are socially determined leads to greater confusion and misinformation.

Which ones are social and which ones are physiological?

Is there any physiological way to determine if one is born the "wrong gender"?

[Calm]

Should we measure the "corpus callosum' of all adult males and mutilate them if it isn't thick enough?

Straw man. You would be more convincing if you actually dealt with the evidence rather than being melodramatic.

Simply because one might believe it is a biological issue as well as an emotional one doesn't imply that one agrees that surgery to 'correct' the issue is appropriate.

[Calm]

Is there any physiological way to determine if one is born the "wrong gender"?

While open to the possibility, I do not assume that just because a person feels like he or she is of the wrong gender, that they really are.

[Calm]

Do we have any other evidence than their "feelings"

People with autism and dyslexia are not cured by mutilating themselves.

Tell me, what you would think of someone who thought they were born with the wrong number of arms, and that they "feel that they would be happier if they cut one off"

There are actually individuals who believe they have the wrong limbs attached and they desire them to be amputated:

http://en.wikipedia....entity_disorder

(oops wrong link)

This may be caused by a neurological disorder and not an social or emotional one as well:

One theory states that the origin of BIID is that it is a neurological failing of the brain's inner body mapping function (located in the right parietal lobe). According to this theory, the brain mapping does not incorporate the affected limb in its understanding of the body's physical form.[

[Stone holm]

Since excommunications can be removed after one dies, I still don't see an issue with regards to eternally barring someone from the blessings of temple ordinances eternally.

While a sex change results in excommunication without possibility of rebaptism in this life, that does not mean it is an unforgivable sin. Rarely, do such procedures when performed on an otherwise anatomically correct adult result in a satisfactory outcome psychologically.

[Daniel2]

Rarely, do such procedures when performed on an otherwise anatomically correct adult result in a satisfactory outcome psychologically.

CFR, Please.

[Stone holm]

CFR, Please.

Personal observation.

[Daniel2]

Personal observation.

So, nothing concrete or peer-reviewed studies, only anecdotal evidence. I imagine you don't personally know more than a handful of transsexuals. I presume my CFR is inadequately answered, and you need to retract your statement.

Daniel2

[Calm]

I had read a study years ago on the success rate of transgender that stated it wasn't very high, to the point where it was suggested that it shouldn't be undertaken at that stage of development of treatment.

But I was looking for that type of documentation for this thread and I found something that suggested. IIRC, a success rate of 15% for male to female (success being the treatment resolving their emotional issues so that they feel 'at home' in their bodies), but one of 90% for female to male. If this is correct, then psychologically it would seem to be advantageous for transgender females to undergo to become males at this point IF they have no religious or other reasons to prohibit it. If the low success rate for males was correct, they need a lot more work on the psychological side of the operation and possibly the biological side as well (perhaps males can't tolerate female hormones as well as females can tolerate male hormones) or there may be something more going on among males who see themselves as transgender than just a 'misplaced' gender.

Because of my own religious beliefs, if someone asked me my opinion I would counsel them not to do it (explaining why I hold that point of view), but if those stats are accurate it is very understandable why it might be clinically encouraged by those who do not hold such beliefs at least for transgender females.

[Calm]

Am looking for some more research...read a summary at ReligiousTolerance.org where it stated that there was a low regret among post transexual surgical patients (around 3%) though such were still higher in having emotional, etc. issues than the general public:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18990387

Fifteen years after sex reassignment operation quality of life is lower in the domains general health, role limitation, physical limitation, and personal limitation.

Now I need to find a study that compares transgendered individuals that decided against surgery with those that went for it for quality of life.

[Tacenda]

[media=]

The part 1 of 3 of the "Josh and Lolly Weed" podcast on Mormon Stories today. A gay man who chose to marry a woman, despite being gay. Just thought some on here might appreciate this. I think this happens alot but is hidden. I think I know atleast 3 couples that this is the case, all seem happily married...to each their own. Maybe for the LDS gay man/woman, they need everything the LDS offers and do as the Weeds and others have done.

[Stone holm]

[media=]

The "Josh and Lolly Weed" podcast on Mormon Stories today. A gay man who chose to marry a woman, despite being gay. Just thought some on here might appreciate this. I think this happens alot but is hidden. I think I know atleast 3 couples that this is the case, all seem happily married...to each their own. Maybe for the LDS gay man/woman, they need everything the LDS offers and do as the Weeds and others have done.

I don't think the Church counsels gays to get into an heterosexual marriage anymore -- not sure on that. I think the model by default is for gay men to behave like Catholic priests, and lesbians to be have like Nuns. But I could certainly understand a gay man and a lesbian say deciding to get a Temple Marriage if they were very, very good friends as it would serve a lot of social purposes and perhaps alleviate some of the sense of isolation and loneliness. Regardless of the position of the Church on not harassing people with same sex attraction, an "outed" homosexual in the Church faces a horrid social and psychological experience in the Church even if they are abiding the law of chastity.

[BlueDreams]

I don't think the Church counsels gays to get into an heterosexual marriage anymore -- not sure on that. I think the model by default is for gay men to behave like Catholic priests, and lesbians to be have like Nuns. But I could certainly understand a gay man and a lesbian say deciding to get a Temple Marriage if they were very, very good friends as it would serve a lot of social purposes and perhaps alleviate some of the sense of isolation and loneliness. Regardless of the position of the Church on not harassing people with same sex attraction, an "outed" homosexual in the Church faces a horrid social and psychological experience in the Church even if they are abiding the law of chastity.

The LDS church doesn't encourage marriage and a means of curing/overcoming attractions. I would say that cases like Josh and Lolly (p.s. just for clarity, Lolly isn't gay) aren't completely off the table, but they shouldn't be held as a standard bearer as well....nor would either one of them ever state that anyone should follow their life. They would also be complying with what the LDS church discourages: they do not see their marriage as a means of overcoming Josh's attractions at all (I follow their blog, that's how I can feel pretty certain about that).

Universally, the counsel given to everyone is to yield our whole selves to the Lord and walk with God. Where He takes us will most likely differ from one another.

With luv,

BD

[Stone holm]

The LDS church doesn't encourage marriage and a means of curing/overcoming attractions. I would say that cases like Josh and Lolly (p.s. just for clarity, Lolly isn't gay) aren't completely off the table, but they shouldn't be held as a standard bearer as well....nor would either one of them ever state that anyone should follow their life. They would also be complying with what the LDS church discourages: they do not see their marriage as a means of overcoming Josh's attractions at all (I follow their blog, that's how I can feel pretty certain about that).

Universally, the counsel given to everyone is to yield our whole selves to the Lord and walk with God. Where He takes us will most likely differ from one another.

With luv,

BD

I agree. Wasn't suggesting any specific behavior, just stating that I could certainly understand it.

[Daniel2]

[media=]

The part 1 of 3 of the "Josh and Lolly Weed" podcast on Mormon Stories today. A gay man who chose to marry a woman, despite being gay. Just thought some on here might appreciate this. I think this happens alot but is hidden. I think I know atleast 3 couples that this is the case, all seem happily married...to each their own. Maybe for the LDS gay man/woman, they need everything the LDS offers and do as the Weeds and others have done.

Just to clarify: My understanding is that Josh Weed has self identified as a gay man. While "gays and lesbians" and "transgendered individuals" are often mentioned in similar contexts when it comes to civil rights (a.k.a. "LGBT"), a homosexual person is not the same as a transgendered person.

Homosexuality has to do with one's romantic and/or sexual orientation, whereas gender dysphoria (the issue that transgendered individuals experience) has to do with the self-perception one's own physical gender.

While the Weeds are an example of a homosexual individual choosing to marry someone of the opposite gender, transgenderism goes far beyond a sexual or romantic preference for one's spouse.

Daniel2

[Tacenda]

Daniel2, I never said anything about Josh having anything to do with transgenderism, or whatever you said. I just happen to have run across this podcast today and thought I'd post it under this thread since it went along with it nicely.

[Stone holm]

Doesn't matter, you are very naughty Tacenda, now go stand in a corner.

[bluebell]

Daniel2, I never said anything about Josh having anything to do with transgenderism, or whatever you said. I just happen to have run across this podcast today and thought I'd post it under this thread since it went along with it nicely.

I think, since the thread is specifically about transgenders peoples and not about homosexuality, that Daniel2 might have been confused about why you were interjecting a new subject and just wanted to make sure others weren't confused as well.

[Stone holm]

I think, since the thread is specifically about transgenders peoples and not about homosexuality, that Daniel2 might have been confused about why you were interjecting a new subject and just wanted to make sure others weren't confused as well.

Yeah if you read the text of the thread its about transgender, but if you read the title it has that all encompassing acronym, which it is my understanding that some of the old timers among the gays are beginning to dislike because it lumps them in with transgenders and transvestites, etc. Just can't please everyone, I guess.