For Those Who Are Struggling With Their Faith

[Libs]

Yes, that's fair and that might be what he meant. Thanks, TAO and Cal.

I really thought, at first, that he was talking about everyone outside of the LDS Church...

[Calm]

Yes, that's fair and that might be what he meant. Thanks, TAO and Cal.

I really thought, at first, that he was talking about everyone outside of the LDS Church...

It can appear that way but isn't consistent with what he has said in the past.

[mfbukowski]

Mfb, I can totally understand finding peace and joy in the church and I think it's wonderful that you have that. I did, as well, for a long time. But, I don't think it's completely true that there is nothing but "crass stupidity and animal behavior" out here.

I've been involved in a lot of faith communities, since I left the LDS Church, and there are a lot of very good people in all of them.

I was talking about non-believers. Yes there are some perfectly reasonable atheists out there too- no question. But I was mostly talking about the vast majority of worldly godless people who live pop culture "standards".

[mfbukowski]

Yes, that's fair and that might be what he meant. Thanks, TAO and Cal.

I really thought, at first, that he was talking about everyone outside of the LDS Church...

Yep as usual, Cal got it right. There are many many faithful people who are not LDS who have wonderful lives and are wonderful people.

I was talking about those who have no hope for anything- you should (or maybe should not) read some books like "Nausea" by Jean Paul Sartre.

The critic William V. Spanos has used^[8] Sartre's novel as an example of "negative capability," a presentation of the uncertainty and dread of human existence, so strong that the imagination cannot comprehend it.

http://en.wikipedia..../Nausea_(novel)

This is essentially where I was before God decided to reveal himself to me for reasons I will never know and show me Mormonism as Divine Humanism.

The reason I find Mormonism as the "one true church" is largely because I am so totally immersed in humanism that I could not believe in the god of the sectarians as early Mormons might call them and Mormonism is the only church which has the understanding that God is an exalted man and we can become like him. The first question I asked a Mormon was "Tell me about this eternal progression thing"- imagine that coming out of the mouth of an investigator. I liked the answer my friend gave me so much I married her. She handled it like a total pro, and I thought- "I absolutely have to marry this woman- no one else understands me!" But if she had not gotten the philosophy right, who knows what might have happened!

Sorry- I'm a tad weird. Not exactly one of your 5th generation traditional Mormons I guess.

Edited February 25, 2013 by mfbukowski

[bcuzbcuz]

crass stupidity and animal behavior.

Yup! That's me in a nutshell.

[Yep]

There are several posters who have identified themselves as struggling with their fatih over some aspect of the Gospel, whether it be polgamy, gay marriage (especially the Church's involvement with the gay marriage proposition in California) , etc. This is not meant to focus on any one of them, to call them out, or to pass judgement. I am really hoping to get a better understanding of some of the thought processes that go along with those struggles.

If there are any who fit that mold and would like to comment, I am wondering how you expect to resolve the conflicts? Do you have a plan, a course of action? Do you have a source of information from which you are expecting or hoping to additional insights? What do you think would be needed to finally bring closure for you?

Thanks,

Glenn

I went inactive for a time. My family had just fallen apart due to infidelity on the part of my wife. I did not however have a crisis of faith in the Church, I had a crisis of faith in the future for myself. My issue was the strong position of family in the doctrine of the Church while my family had just fallen apart.

I believe that the main issue is that their hearts fail them. It is very difficult to maintain belief at times. It is easier to give up. It is also easier to rely on welfare than it is to work, it is easier to avoid a degree and just get a job without one. Progression is not the easy path and often it is extraordinarily difficult and the heart hurts. some things to remember: God will do right by you and if you maintain a life that is acceptable to the Lord you will be fine.

I am stronger now than I have ever been and I know that I am acceptable to the Lord.

[mfbukowski]

I believe that the main issue is that their hearts fail them. It is very difficult to maintain belief at times. It is easier to give up. It is also easier to rely on welfare than it is to work, it is easier to avoid a degree and just get a job without one. Progression is not the easy path and often it is extraordinarily difficult and the heart hurts. some things to remember: God will do right by you and if you maintain a life that is acceptable to the Lord you will be fine.

It is perhaps not surprising that the whole idea of "existential dread" comes out of socialist Europe. Enough said there, I am sure.

[rockpond]

I believe that the main issue is that their hearts fail them. It is very difficult to maintain belief at times. It is easier to give up. It is also easier to rely on welfare than it is to work, it is easier to avoid a degree and just get a job without one. Progression is not the easy path and often it is extraordinarily difficult and the heart hurts. some things to remember: God will do right by you and if you maintain a life that is acceptable to the Lord you will be fine.

Yep's experience was obviously different than mine and I don't wish to invalidate his thoughts on the matter. But, I do feel strongly that we ought to use caution when expressing the sentiment that it is easier to give up, easier to not believe, easier to leave the church, etc.

It was absolutely not easier for me during my faith crisis. Telling my wife that I no longer believed in the truth claims of the church was wrenching. Teaching early morning seminary when my spiritual soul was in turmoil was draining. Losing the comfort of eternal family doctrine was terrifying. The divide placed between me and my extended family was difficult. I could go on, but you get the point.

I didn't start sleeping in on Sunday. I kept a calling. I kept attending. I wasn't knocking down a beer after work or taking my tithing money to Vegas. It was tough and felt inescapable. And it was not a choice I would have preferred to make. Even today, having come through it and feeling mostly whole again -- there are plenty of times where I wish I could go back to my former self (before the faith crisis) because that truly was easier.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I've about determined that "closure" is not on offer. As we are immortal yet finite beings it does not seem logical to assume that we ever come to a "fullness" of anything, much less full knowledge about "God". We will forever be finding out more about "God".

Learning from who? We would not even know who God is if the Jews had not revealed him to mankind. Reformers and JS taught us more...you are not suggesting that you know more than them all, are you?

[pmccombs1]

Mfb, I can totally understand finding peace and joy in the church and I think it's wonderful that you have that. I did, as well, for a long time. But, I don't think it's completely true that there is nothing but "crass stupidity and animal behavior" out here.

I agree with this. I know that we Mormons don't claim to have a monopoly on the truth, but we do think we have something fundamental that is only available in the LDS Church. This is to say that the Church doesn't position itself in a religious market as "one great choice among many." This is supposed to be peerless; the thing that once understood, cannot be laid aside for something else. That's conversion, and that is what Mormonism is for mfbukowski, and for many others besides.

We are not unique in such a claim, however; and it should surprise nobody when we find, for instance, ex-Mormon Catholics who also say that they have received "an hundred fold" in their new-found faith, and that everything preceding it (including Mormonism) was "crass stupidity." But mfbukowski, of all people, ought to know something of the "variety of religious experiences" and of the ease with which we may have them. When we find what strikes us as the truth, nothing else matters. The curious thing is that, while some people find it in Mormonism, others find it elsewhere. Everyone that is of the truth heareth...

So, there is a class of Mormon doubters out there who don't accept some explanation of Church history, or whatever. There is another class of doubter that simply perceives something lacking in the gospel or in the Church, or perhaps something more or better elsewhere. I'm talking on an intellectual level here too, not just the sort of complaint that we get from people who are offended at something that can be explained away as human shortcoming in an otherwise perfect Church.

That's probably an over-simplification, but I mean to say that not all thoughtful doubters become disaffected because of the usual problems with polygamy or the BoA.

[Yep]

Yep's experience was obviously different than mine and I don't wish to invalidate his thoughts on the matter. But, I do feel strongly that we ought to use caution when expressing the sentiment that it is easier to give up, easier to not believe, easier to leave the church, etc.

It was absolutely not easier for me during my faith crisis. Telling my wife that I no longer believed in the truth claims of the church was wrenching. Teaching early morning seminary when my spiritual soul was in turmoil was draining. Losing the comfort of eternal family doctrine was terrifying. The divide placed between me and my extended family was difficult. I could go on, but you get the point.

I didn't start sleeping in on Sunday. I kept a calling. I kept attending. I wasn't knocking down a beer after work or taking my tithing money to Vegas. It was tough and felt inescapable. And it was not a choice I would have preferred to make. Even today, having come through it and feeling mostly whole again -- there are plenty of times where I wish I could go back to my former self (before the faith crisis) because that truly was easier.

Internal dissonance would be lessened and an internal sense of peace could occur regardless of external pressure. But yes, I agree it may not be the same for all individuals.

[Libs]

I was talking about non-believers. Yes there are some perfectly reasonable atheists out there too- no question. But I was mostly talking about the vast majority of worldly godless people who live pop culture "standards".

Thanks for the clarification, mfb.

[Glenn101]

This has been an interesting and enlightening thread for me at least. I really appreciate all of the comments for the strong believers and those who have decide to take a leave of absence from the faith, of the LDS church at least.

Thanks,

Glenn

[Calm]

Yep's experience was obviously different than mine and I don't wish to invalidate his thoughts on the matter. But, I do feel strongly that we ought to use caution when expressing the sentiment that it is easier to give up, easier to not believe, easier to leave the church, etc.

It was absolutely not easier for me during my faith crisis. Telling my wife that I no longer believed in the truth claims of the church was wrenching. Teaching early morning seminary when my spiritual soul was in turmoil was draining. Losing the comfort of eternal family doctrine was terrifying. The divide placed between me and my extended family was difficult. I could go on, but you get the point.

I didn't start sleeping in on Sunday. I kept a calling. I kept attending. I wasn't knocking down a beer after work or taking my tithing money to Vegas. It was tough and felt inescapable. And it was not a choice I would have preferred to make. Even today, having come through it and feeling mostly whole again -- there are plenty of times where I wish I could go back to my former self (before the faith crisis) because that truly was easier.

There are a variety of ways to measure difficulty and an infinite number of behaviours we could apply that measurement method to, so one should never assume that when someone else says 'this is easy' that they mean it in the same way you do. Always ask for clarification of seemingly simple judgments. When one stops and actually looks at all the conditions that are assumed or must be assumed, they are rarely still seen as simple.

Some choices could lead to an easier emotional state but a much more difficult intellectual one, or a simply emotional and intellectual one might lead to a difficult physical state. Or it could be easy on some of one's emotions and harder on others, easy on some intellectual values, harder on others, etc.

Edited February 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[Questing Beast]

Learning from who? We would not even know who God is if the Jews had not revealed him to mankind. Reformers and JS taught us more...you are not suggesting that you know more than them all, are you?

So you have to learn about "God" from a bronze age set of books? I do know more than what is in the Bible, or all scripture, about "God". Yes. But what I know is for me, not anyone else. And everyone else is precisely the same: learning directly from the Cause, one-on-one. That we first hear what others have to say about "God" naturally comes about through the medium of communication employed, usually writings being read or quoted. But individual knowledge about "God" is already there when each person is born into mortality. Getting that knowledge unlocked, freed up, is what opposition is all about. "Being there" isn't an easy learning/remembering environment. And it was never intended to be. What do you do with the knowledge you have so far? That's the issue, not how much you know right now....

[mfbukowski]

I agree with this. I know that we Mormons don't claim to have a monopoly on the truth, but we do think we have something fundamental that is only available in the LDS Church. This is to say that the Church doesn't position itself in a religious market as "one great choice among many." This is supposed to be peerless; the thing that once understood, cannot be laid aside for something else. That's conversion, and that is what Mormonism is for mfbukowski, and for many others besides.

We are not unique in such a claim, however; and it should surprise nobody when we find, for instance, ex-Mormon Catholics who also say that they have received "an hundred fold" in their new-found faith, and that everything preceding it (including Mormonism) was "crass stupidity." But mfbukowski, of all people, ought to know something of the "variety of religious experiences" and of the ease with which we may have them. When we find what strikes us as the truth, nothing else matters. The curious thing is that, while some people find it in Mormonism, others find it elsewhere. Everyone that is of the truth heareth...

So, there is a class of Mormon doubters out there who don't accept some explanation of Church history, or whatever. There is another class of doubter that simply perceives something lacking in the gospel or in the Church, or perhaps something more or better elsewhere. I'm talking on an intellectual level here too, not just the sort of complaint that we get from people who are offended at something that can be explained away as human shortcoming in an otherwise perfect Church.

That's probably an over-simplification, but I mean to say that not all thoughtful doubters become disaffected because of the usual problems with polygamy or the BoA.

If you read my subsequent comments you would know that your interpretation is a misunderstanding of what I meant.

[jasminex]

I have lost my faith in the pepole in the church because it seems like most are just willing to turn a blind eye to the growing problem of child abuse at he hands of bishop, teachers and scout leaders. The phrase "Evil will prevail if good men do nothing" comes to mind here.

[bdouglas]

I am a skeptic and a doubter. And I'm a Mormon. Hey! That sounds like a good Mormon.org profile...

I don't have a lot of interest in the apparently controversial history of my Church. I view the political involvement in moral issues as so much futility where other more productive paths exist, but I fail to get worked up about it. This isn't to say that these things don't pose a problem to reason or intellect. My mind understands that possibly there is evidence that suggests Joseph Smith may have been a fraud, for instance. I don't have answers for that, but somehow I just don't care. Those problems seem unimportant at the moment, and my mind doesn't demand a resolution. I don't know why.

It's possible, at some future time, that something I presently understand but don't care about will suddenly "come home" to me. That is to say, it will enter my mind with a new gravity and importance. Whereas once I understood the problem, now I understand it. It is hard to explain this, but perhaps you know what I mean. It works both ways. One may have knowledge of a gospel principle, and then suddenly one day it matters as if it had never been there before.

My own skepticism is grounded in this idea of my church as a bastion of mediocrity; that our sincere leaders take the learned foolishness of the world to dizzying new heights and call it inspiration. I have a feeling that The Church could cease all of its present operations, and it would not make much of a difference to world as a whole. The level of suffering in the world would probably remain about the same with or without our present efforts. I worry that perhaps the the word "prophet" has passed to a status of title only. That we have a de-facto closed canon called the "standard works." That we are standardized, correlated, mechanized, and mass-produced like so much other commodity junk in this world. That we defile our own Sabbaths by doing things by which we imagine to honor it. That no matter how much I try to condition my mind, I can't make this mediocrity taste delicious anymore. I thirst for something more...

Someone here said that faith is a choice, which is a true statement. But in what shall we have faith? The choices are many, and it is desire that will decide us. There is much in the Church that I have ceased to wish for. Some people say the "gospel" is another thing altogether. Perhaps. There are beautiful things in many of our teachings.

To look, of course. To sojourn in the wilderness, so to speak. Also to chafe under church activity so that I can provide an anchor for my children while I drift whither I will for a time. When (If) I find what I am looking for, I will bring it back with me, and then we may set down anchor in other waters that seem more bounteous. It may be that I learn again to see my Church and its gospel with new eyes and find that what I needed was there all along. I don't expect this to happen, but you never know.

I used to think I was an anomaly among Mormons--the quietly disaffected who is outwardly active and faithful. I find now that there is an entire underground full of members such as this, and I begin to understand some of the appeals from the Brethren who have invited us to return to the "Full Banquet," replete with chicken nuggets and little "krab" sticks wrapped in bacon. I used to have a taste for that stuff.

The prayers of the lost can be poignant and desperate. I hope that God answers them, if He is there. Beyond this, I find sources of information from every quarter, without and within the Church.

That's a great question. I'll know it when I see it.

I appreciate your comments. The "bastion of mediocrity" comment reminds me of a reported conversation between Hugh Nibley and Joseph Fielding Smith where JFS expressed concern that as a church we had become "mediocre". (This conversation was reported by Nibley in "Approaching Zion" but I have forgotten which essay.)

[CASteinman]

Can you go through live without some crisis of Faith at some point? Didn't even Joseph have some moments of crisis? Oh God -- where art thou?

If someone has not had a crisis of Faith yet, I hope that they get the chance because it can be a great opportunity to learn to Love your fellow man and to really really be grateful for the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ok maybe that's a bad hope -- maybe its not for everyone. But I hope everyone gets to learn more of the Love of God.

[mathonihah]

Can you go through live without some crisis of Faith at some point? Didn't even Joseph have some moments of crisis? Oh God -- where art thou?

If someone has not had a crisis of Faith yet, I hope that they get the chance because it can be a great opportunity to learn to Love your fellow man and to really really be grateful for the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ok maybe that's a bad hope -- maybe its not for everyone. But I hope everyone gets to learn more of the Love of God.

I wouldn't describe Joseph's experience as a crisis of faith. I don't think that he ever "doubted". I think that calling it a "trial of faith" might be more appropriate, after 1 Peter 1:7, "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ". See also Ether 12:6; D&C 105:19.

[CASteinman]

I wouldn't describe Joseph's experience as a crisis of faith. I don't think that he ever "doubted". I think that calling it a "trial of faith" might be more appropriate, after 1 Peter 1:7, "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ". See also Ether 12:6; D&C 105:19.

I guess doubt would be the distinction between "crisis" and "trial"? Its hard for me to see how it would be a trial of faith if you had assurance.

[Brenda]

I agree that we've all had our doubts. I've had doubts about everything! I have four terrific grown kids, and at times while they were growing up, I wanted to dump the whole mothering thing. I have a wonderful marriage, yet there have been times I doubted wanting to stay. Who hasn't even had doubts about wanting to live? We all have our highs and lows.

I just don't dwell on it, if I can help it. I go through the motions until the Spirit returns. If I doubt my marriage, I pour more attention into it. If I doubt mothering, I pull out the baby pictures. If I doubt my testimony, I have a good talk with someone I trust -- usually my husband. I ask myself -- am I better off in, or out? I also, and this is so important to me, remember my own personal spiritual experiences. D&C 6:22-23 was written specifically to me. I may not know what other LDS claim to know, but this I DO know: The Church has been the greatest blessing in my life. I like what Edward Kimball, son of Spencer W., said (paraphrasing) ..... If it's not true, it's the closest thing to true that I know of.

[mathonihah]

I guess doubt would be the distinction between "crisis" and "trial"? Its hard for me to see how it would be a trial of faith if you had assurance.

I still think there is a distinction between what folks here call “crisis of faith,” and what the scriptures call “trial of your faith”. I recall reading something from Joseph Smith to the effect that if he had all the Rocky Mountains piled on top of him, he would not lose his hope or faith.

[Biz]

I don't see any real reconciliation anytime in the foreseeable future. The priesthood ban was simply Unconscionable, Polygamy/Polyandry was weird, unfortunate and an abuse of power. I believe the Prophets and Apostles are fundamentally unreliable. If you were chosen as a wive and were asked to pray to God for confirmation or if you were black and denied the priesthood while simultaneously being taught racist teachings from earlier Prophets and Apostles you're likely to be at some extent physiologically damaged.

Yes, our leaders may have good intentions and think deeply about hard questions but if you ask me they are fundamentally unreliable and following them to their word has been shown in history as being very problematic and dangerous to peoples well being.

[Brenda]

I don't see any real reconciliation anytime in the foreseeable future. The priesthood ban was simply Unconscionable, Polygamy/Polyandry was weird, unfortunate and an abuse of power. I believe the Prophets and Apostles are fundamentally unreliable. If you were chosen as a wive and were asked to pray to God for confirmation or if you were black and denied the priesthood while simultaneously being taught racist teachings from earlier Prophets and Apostles you're likely to be at some extent physiologically damaged.

Yes, our leaders may have good intentions and think deeply about hard questions but if you ask me they are fundamentally unreliable and following them to their word has been shown in history as being very problematic and dangerous to peoples well being.

Then this discredits all scripture because they are all the products of apostles and prophets. But maybe that's what you're saying.