Joseph Smith Iii

[Alan]

I have studied the life of JSIII over a number of years. I have read a number of books about him, or about the Reorganisation and which therefore feature him quite prominently. In fact have just completed Joseph Smith III, Pragmatic Prophet again.

I am interested in your thoughts regarding this man. The reason I ask is because the statements I was given when I was young in the church do not concur with what I have uncovered during my studies. However, I am not so full of myself as to think I know it all. There is much still to learn.

[guerreiro9]

What statements were you given when you were young in the church?

Edited February 17, 2013 by guerreiro9

[bluebell]

I've never been given any statements about him in the church. In fact, the only thing i know about him (which i guess did come from church in round about ways) is that he's JS's son and was a prophet in the RLDS church at one time.

What kinds of things did you hear?

[Questing Beast]

I know that he took a lot of convincing to "start" the RLDS Church, by his mother and the leading men of the new sect. I know that JSIII visited Utah Territory c. 1870 to gather statements from his father's former wives, to the effect that they had not in fact practiced full marriage in Nauvoo, and JSIII came away disappointed in that effort, because instead the women swore affidavits that they had in fact practiced marriage "for time" with his father in Nauvoo. So JSIII's mother was mistaken in her assertions to her son, that JS Jr had never had any other wives "for time" but herself, which must have been a severe disappointment to him, unless he caved into cognitive dissonance. Of that I am ignorant. I have never read a book specifically centered on JSIII....

[Deborah]

I can honestly say in my 50 plus years in the church I don't recall ever having a discussion in church about JSIII. Only about Emma and her children not following the saints and being part of the reorganized church.

[Samuelhelaman]

So we all know that Emma hated polygamy. Well it turns out that after Joseph died, she taught Joseph iii and David that their father had never taught, promoted, or practiced polygamy, while at the same time fiercely denouncing the practice as disgusting and evil. Joseph's sons of course believed their mother. They didn't know the truth until they were much older. They had been lied to about their father, by their mother! Apparently when they found out from other sources that Joseph had in fact revealed polygamy, and taken wives besides their beloved other, they were devastated and disgusted. Emma's incredible hatred of plural marriage had formed their opinions from childhood, and suddenly their world-view was destroyed. The Prophet Joseph Smith had become a monster! i can't imagine painful it was for them. It really bums me out. David actually went insane. He simply could not reconcile the Church, or his father, in any manageable way. It destroyed his mind!

Anyway,

Although he was only 11 when his father was killed, Joseph Smith iii refused to join the Utah faction even when he became old enough. If he had gone, it is certain that he would have occupied the position of Prophet in Utah- Brigham Young himself accepted the bloodline doctrine concerning Joseph Smith's lineage. But he Just couldn't overcome his deep revulsion of polygamy, and instead became the president of the RLDS organization in Navuoo.

David was placed in an insane asylum, and eventually Emma remarried a non-LDS Navuoo native named Bidamon. Despite consummating their new marriage, no children came of it, which was very fortunate because Bidamon cheated constantly with many other women.

But there is more to this story... Let me know if you are interested.

[Bart Burk]

My understanding is that JS III did not accept the affidavits from those claiming plural marriage as true. Everything I have read about JS III is that he lived an honorable life.

[Samuelhelaman]

In D&C 132 we find the Abrahamic Covenant that was promised and sealed upon Joseph Smith. This means that God promised him posterity as numerous as the sands of the sea! But what the heck happened to his offspring? What happened to the promises?

The following scriptures are very clear about Joseph's seed. He should have a righteous, numerous family, right? Cuz I don't think that's happened....

58 And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 12

Also:

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132)

Well the reason it seems to have failed is actually part of our cannon as well. Because it hasn't failed:

The covenant of Eternal Marriage is a three party endeavor, so if either person breaks their parameters with God or each other it's off. Here is a part of Emma's half of the covenant:

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132)

The entire section is filled with these rules:

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was? (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132)

So the answer is that Emma lost her part in the promise, and destroyed her sons by rejecting and betraying her husband and God. She violated the priesthood by remarrying without the proper priesthood dissolution that is required, in fact she rejected it, so technically she committed adultery.

And that completely explains why Emma's offspring don't seem to be enjoying Gods powerful blessings. She broke her covenant.

I sincerely hope that Emma is with Joseph right now. I'm sure she loves him, and that he loves her back. Hopefully she has been forgiven. Its very likely Joseph found a way... She had to face some hard things. I personally could detect no true evil in her actions, and most people commiserate with struggles. But that doesn't change the Covenants of The Lord.

The Lords foresight and foreknowledge of what would happen to Emma and their family after he died was absolutely planned for by The Lord. Even though no children from his other marriages have been identified, it seems like God knew what he was doing, and commanded Joseph to marry for a reason. I am very confident that God will perform his Covenant to Joseph, but I'm equally confident it can't come from Emma's posterity.

God is for real.

49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.

50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132)

What do you think?

[Bart Burk]

There is still an LDS group led by a descendant of Emma and Joseph Smith:

http://www.theremnantchurch.com/bio/presidency/FirstPresidency.htm

[Deborah]

on wrong thread.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Deborah

[Questing Beast]

Okay, that is weird, the "remnant" I mean. What/how people believe is a constantly amazing thing. Justifying JS's plurality of wives doctrine requires hoops inside of hoops to jump through. It doesn't hang together otherwise. And I just don't think that anything "God" does requires that kind of finagling....

[Bart Burk]

Okay, that is weird, the "remnant" I mean. What/how people believe is a constantly amazing thing. Justifying JS's plurality of wives doctrine requires hoops inside of hoops to jump through. It doesn't hang together otherwise. And I just don't think that anything "God" does requires that kind of finagling....

Here is the home page for the web site: http://www.theremnantchurch.com/index.php Edited February 17, 2013 by Bart Burk

[Deborah]

Justifying JS's plurality of wives doctrine requires hoops inside of hoops to jump through. It doesn't hang together otherwise. And I just don't think that anything "God" does requires that kind of finagling....

Unless you don't believe it is Joseph's doctrine, but God's. The fact that they weren't given complete instructions on how to live it and may have made mistakes along the way is a different matter. Plus I think some people are too quick to judge those of the past based on what little detail we actually have on these matters.

[Questing Beast]

We have a wealth of "detail" on the matter of polygamy in Mormonism. There's more than enough material to make an educated assessment either way, which is what the LDS leadership has always encouraged from the pulpit. Yet when one digs into it, there is no reason (imho) to believe anything beyond JS instituting the practice so that he could reconcile his biological drives with his religion. He had precedent, even if it was appealing to the "age of the patriarchs" and coming up with "the restitution of all things" to include that, yet not the Levitical law....

Be respectful when you speak about religious leaders. You can make your point without being insulting.

[volgadon]

Yet when one digs into it, there is no reason (imho) to believe anything beyond JS instituting the practice so that he could reconcile his biological drives with his religion.

A jaded and peurile opinion, frankly.

[Alan]

Interesting comments folks.

JSIII never accepted that his father was a polygamist. He distrusted the testimonies of the women, and DNA research has since proved some of their claims were false.

He didn't form or start the RLDS church, that was already in existence for some years before he joined.

Emma married Lewis Bidamon quite soon after the martyrdom, when Joseph was still young.

David Smith became mentally ill and spent the last 30 years of his life in a mental hospital. This condition was nothing to do with his fathers alleged polygamy or his mothers hatred of the practice.

I was taught that JSIII was persuaded by his mother to join the RLDS - this was not true.

I was taught the RLDS relied upon lineal descent solely - this is not true either.

JSIII decided not to join the Utah church because he said he had a divine manifestation that he should not.

He said he joined the RLDS because God revealed to him that they were the only faction of the church he recognised.

So my question is: Could it be true that God wanted him in the RLDS church? And if so, why?

One thought that comes to me is that JSIII played a prominent role in the legal challenge to polygamy which resulted in the US government passing legislation to outlaw it and dis-incorportate the LDS church. Perhaps the Lord wanted it stopped and it was the only way he could get the church to abandon it?

Edited February 17, 2013 by Alan

[Tacenda]

Interesting comments folks.

JSIII never accepted that his father was a polygamist. He distrusted the testimonies of the women, and DNA research has since proved some of their claims were false.

He didn't form or start the RLDS church, that was already in existence for some years before he joined.

Emma married Lewis Bidamon quite soon after the martyrdom, when Joseph was still young.

David Smith became mentally ill and spent the last 30 years of his life in a mental hospital. This condition was nothing to do with his fathers alleged polygamy or his mothers hatred of the practice.

I was taught that JSIII was persuaded by his mother to join the RLDS - this was not true.

I was taught the RLDS relied upon lineal descent solely - this is not true either.

JSIII decided not to join the Utah church because he said he had a divine manifestation that he should not.

He said he joined the RLDS because God revealed to him that they were the only faction of the church he recognised.

So my question is: Could it be true that God wanted him in the RLDS church? And if so, why?

One thought that comes to me is that JSIII played a prominent role in the legal challenge to polygamy which resulted in the US government passing legislation to outlaw it and dis-incorportate the LDS church. Perhaps the Lord wanted it stopped and it was the only way he could get the church to abandon it?

Wow never really thought of this.

[webbles]

JSIII never accepted that his father was a polygamist. He distrusted the testimonies of the women, and DNA research has since proved some of their claims were false.

I'm not sure how DNA evidence can disprove their claims since the claims were that they had carnal relationship with Joseph Smith. Unless children come from that union, there's not much that DNA can do. I think there was only one mother/child that actually claimed to be a descendant and that is yet to be proven one way or the other.

I was taught the RLDS relied upon lineal descent solely - this is not true either.

That's not true any more but it was true originally (once JSIII agreed to be the president). The decision to move away from lineal descent caused a splintering of the RLDS.

One thought that comes to me is that JSIII played a prominent role in the legal challenge to polygamy which resulted in the US government passing legislation to outlaw it and dis-incorportate the LDS church. Perhaps the Lord wanted it stopped and it was the only way he could get the church to abandon it?

Interesting idea, though this seems to depend on the idea that polygamy is not of God.

[Stargazer]

I have never seen a scintilla of evidence that JSjr designated his son JSIII as "heir apparent" to the Presidency of the church. Thus SamuelHelaman's claim that had JSIII joined with the Saints in SLC he would have become Prophet is bogus.

[gkearney]

That's not true any more but it was true originally (once JSIII agreed to be the president). The decision to move away from lineal descent caused a splintering of the RLDS.

That's not really true the divisions within the RLDS Church have their origins in the ordination of women to the priesthood and other perceived "liberal" innovations which occurred before the moving away of lineal decent of the church president from the Smith family.

[Questing Beast]

Didn't the "priesthood to women" change occur at least partially because there were only female direct descendants of JS remaining in the RLDS? I seem to remember something of the sort.

Of course JSIII disbelieved the women's affidavits swearing that they had been JS Jr's actual wives in the physical sense. To believe any of them, even one of them, would have been to disbelieve his mother. That doesn't mean that JSIII didn't have to engage cognitive dissonance in order to believe his mother....

Edited February 18, 2013 by Questing Beast

[mfbukowski]

But there is more to this story... Let me know if you are interested.

Anyone can make up a story. What's your evidence that this is not "The Three Bears"?

[Alan]

The notion that Joseph Smith designated his eldest son to succeed him is now pretty well accepted by most historians familiar with the evidence.

The concept of lineal descent so celebrated by the early RLDS was always subordinate to the process of designation as contained in D&C 43.

The extention of priesthood to women in 1984 had nothing whatsoever to do with lineal succession.

My point about the affidavitts is that many women claimed Joseph had fathered a child/children with them. DNA evidence has proved this to be false, so in my view JSIII was right to be suspicious about the reliability of those affidavitts. It is also my understanding that many were unsigned.

My point about the polygamy legislation is this: Revelation does not occur in a vacuum. It is always the answer to a pressing need or a sincere question. The first vision, or the word of wisdom are just two examples of hundreds. Therefore, with plural marriage being such an accepted and institutionalised system in Utah, it is unlikely the Church would have pursued the Lord for guidance regarding it's continuation unless there was an emergency requiring the question.

The issue regarding the ordination of those of African descent is another example.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Alan

[gkearney]

The no male children thing is not true and not the reason for the ordination of women. If such were the case there would have been a woman as president of the RLDS church which has not happened. The RLDS church discussed women's ordination for nearly 10 years before implementing it.

LDS members love to make stuff up about the RLDS church and vise versa.

[Alan]

The no male children thing is not true and not the reason for the ordination of women. If such were the case there would have been a woman as president of the RLDS church which has not happened. The RLDS church discussed women's ordination for nearly 10 years before implementing it.

LDS members love to make stuff up about the RLDS church and vise versa.

You're right.