Lent

[Tacenda]

It seems as if we have gotten away from celebrating any religious holiday. Sunday school lessons completely avoid holidays from Easter to Christmas. They are devoid of any mention of holidays, which I find wholly disturbing and unsatisfactory. When I attend Church during a holiday I would really appreciate focusing on the holiday rather than talking about an irrelevant topic. One of the great blessings we avoid, unfortunately, is learning to celebrate particularly spiritual holidays. Easter is one of my favorite holidays, but the only thing that sets it apart from other Sundays is hymns. Why do we do that? What is the benefit of ignoring Easter in lessons, RS, and PM?

Yes, yes and yes to every one of your concerns and very much agree! Edited February 15, 2013 by Tacenda

[why me]

Yes, yes and yes to every one of your concerns and very much agree!

I suppose that the lds church can become like the catholic church and have a lot of symbolisms. They are certainly beautiful. But...the symbolism should not be in the symbolism but in how a person does life. When people fast once a month for the poor and give an offering, that is a beautiful symbol. And when one lives a chaste life, that is also a beautiful symbolism. And when one does baptisms for the dead, for their spirit brothers and sisters, that is also a beautiful symbol of sacrifice.

The lds have different symbolisms but nonetheless they are real and tangible symbolisms. Of course one can also give up chocolate for Lent and then go back to eating it or alcohol or premarital sex. But really, Lent should be more than just 40 days. To live a christlike life is a 365 day observance of Lent.

Edited February 15, 2013 by why me

[Tacenda]

I suppose that the lds church can become like the catholic church and have a lot of symbolisms. They are certainly beautiful. But...the symbolism should not be in the symbolism but in how a person does life. When people fast once a month for the poor and give an offering, that is a beautiful symbol. And when one lives a chaste life, that is also a beautiful symbolism. And when one does baptisms for the dead, for their spirit brothers and sisters, that is also a beautiful symbol of sacrifice.

The lds have different symbolisms but nonetheless they are real and tangible symbolisms. Of course one can also give up chocolate for Lent and then go back to eating it or alcohol or premarital sex. But really, Lent should be more than just 40 days. To live a christlike life is a 365 day observance of Lent.

We could do a little more, it's just cultural not doctrine right? Or wrong?

[why me]

We could do a little more, it's just cultural not doctrine right? Or wrong?

Actually, the lds could do with doing a little less. I would take 40 days over 365 days any day.

[Tacenda]

Actually, the lds could do with doing a little less. I would take 40 days over 365 days any day.

Heck yeah! No, I guess I want a Sacrament meeting to be a celebration of the Saviour's life or the days leading to the crucifiction in a presentation. We don't really do much around Easter time IMO! For crying out loud Pres. Monson had a huge B-day celebration, so it can be done! Edited February 15, 2013 by Tacenda

[Libs]

Saw this on Facebook, today.

[3DOP]

Clearly, the Former-day Church, as I call it, developed its practice of Lent over time. If I am not mistaken Ash Wednesday and the rest of the days leading up to the first Sunday of Lent, have only been included in the Roman Rite less than a thousand years ago, which means the Church had a thousand years before Ash Wednesday came along. This was done so that we could have exactly 40 days. The Churches of the East began their fast a few weeks back during a time which used to be called Septuagesima, counting the Sundays before Easter. The Roman Rite still changes her vestments to purple in the Traditional Mass at this time to represent the beginning of a season of sober reflection. Beginning also on Septuagesima Sunday, the Gloria, a prayer which is never omitted except for times of sadness like a funeral mass, or a call to penance, is omitted. Not to hear Gloria in Excelsis Deo gets one's attention when you are used to hearing it. No longer do we sing the song of heaven either. The Alleluia does not ring out again from Septuagesima until the Easter Vigil.

My point is that nothing is set in stone, and we are still learning the best way to do it according to our times and circumstances. I cannot prove this, but it seems reasonable to me that many practices that developed over centuries, did so because of popular private devotion and desire for a more public expression of it. The development of a church calendar certainly had those kinds of element in them. It isn't just that all of a sudden the Council of Nicea declares there will be Lent. It was undoubtedly a popular practice that the whole church decided to endorse.

Seeing things this way, it seems to me like LDS who every year admit to some, what is the expression, holy envy, about the possibilities of a church calendar which resemble ours should not be discouraged. By practicing privately, and seeing the benefits of sincere efforts to make sacrifices for God through an observance of days and seasons, you are probably copying what happened in the first centuries. It seems like you should consider that your church is in its infancy, and that, if the Lord tarries His coming, a thousand years from now, a lot of things will be different.

With all due respect, Mormons do not have Lent 365 days a year. There is a time to weep and a time to laugh. etc. Human beings cannot be in a state of intense reflection for their whole life. We need rhythm and variation. We need ebbs and flows. Even Jesus Christ limited His fast to forty days.

3DOP

Edited February 16, 2013 by 3DOP

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Ummm, same to you. Luckily, us LDS try not a acquire bad habits that we have to give up for a time. No booze, I guess I could foreswear Dark Chocolate M&M's for the duration...nahhh.

Well said...

[why me]

With all due respect, Mormons do not have Lent 365 days a year. There is a time to weep and a time to laugh. etc. Human beings cannot be in a state of intense reflection for their whole life. We need rhythm and variation. We need ebbs and flows. Even Jesus Christ limited His fast to forty days.

3DOP

I don't think that many Catholics who are observing Lent at this moment are in deep reflection for 40 days. But they are engaged in a sacrifice and yes, for some it may be chocolate, premarital sex, alcohol, donuts etc. I know someone who is not eating his favorite cookies. But for Mormons who are asked to pray daily, avoid premarital sex, alcohol, coffee, read the scriptures daily etc, life can seem like a giving up of something. Although it should not be looked that way. So, it can seem that Mormons are engaged in some aspect of Lent for 365 days. And yes, mormons do laugh and enjoy life too. Or at least they should.

[Yirgacheffe]

I don't think that many Catholics who are observing Lent at this moment are in deep reflection for 40 days. But they are engaged in a sacrifice and yes, for some it may be chocolate, premarital sex, alcohol, donuts etc. I know someone who is not eating his favorite cookies. But for Mormons who are asked to pray daily, avoid premarital sex, alcohol, coffee, read the scriptures daily etc, life can seem like a giving up of something. Although it should not be looked that way. So, it can seem that Mormons are engaged in some aspect of Lent for 365 days. And yes, mormons do laugh and enjoy life too. Or at least they should.

Why don't you think they are in deep reflection? Giving up premarital sex really that is a cheap ugly shot. The attitude on this thread reminds me of the missionaries who knocked on my door, and why I now call the police when they do.

[Tacenda]

Why don't you think they are in deep reflection? Giving up premarital sex really that is a cheap ugly shot. The attitude on this thread reminds me of the missionaries who knocked on my door, and why I now call the police when they do.

Why Me is a good guy and so are the missionaries but sometimes we LDS put our foot in our mouths, been there done that.

[Buzzard]

Why don't you think they are in deep reflection? Giving up premarital sex really that is a cheap ugly shot. The attitude on this thread reminds me of the missionaries who knocked on my door, and why I now call the police when they do.

With all due respect, who is being snarky now? The post just said that pre (or extra)-marital sex is verboten to us at all times, not that it was practiced regularly by all non-LDS. BTW, how long do the police laugh when you call to report Mormon missionaries knocking on your door and request their arrest?

[Yirgacheffe]

With all due respect, who is being snarky now? The post just said that pre (or extra)-marital sex is verboten to us at all times, not that it was practiced regularly by all non-LDS. BTW, how long do the police laugh when you call to report Mormon missionaries knocking on your door and request their arrest?

Just which Christian denomination teaches that premarital sex is okay unless of course you give it up for lent? And how many Christians who practice lent observances do you think also practice premarital or extra marital sex? The attitude by some on this thread is that LDS are such exemplars of spiritual practice all the time (unlike those Catholics or what ever) that they have no need of a period of reflection. Exactly the attitude of your missionaries at my door. And no the police don't laugh, they send a squad car, presumably to explain to the arrogant ones just what our ordinance means.

[why me]

Why Me is a good guy and so are the missionaries but sometimes we LDS put our foot in our mouths, been there done that.

I know. I have just been banned from the Dehlin thread for putting my foot in my mouth. However, my point here is simple. The lds lifestyle is one of 'sacrifice'. We have many young adults who would love to have a beer with their friends or have premarital sex but don't because it goes against the commandments as laid down in the lds church. In terms of secular values, the lds lifestyle is strict. And if this is the case, what can the lds actually give up when it comes to Lent?

[Calm]

With all due respect, who is being snarky now? The post just said that pre (or extra)-marital sex is verboten to us at all times, not that it was practiced regularly by all non-LDS.

It sounded to me like he was just going down a list that LDS aren't supposed to do that society in general is okay with, not talking about the differences between what is acceptable among Catholics and LDS. (add-on: I missed the "pre-marital sex" in the list of things Catholics might be giving up for Lent. I would agree that is a very inappropriate suggestion for what Catholics would be doing, a Catholic who is devoted enough to practice Lent would likely be devoted enough to practice according to other Catholic standards, one of which is a commitment to marriage that in some ways is even stronger than the LDS standard in that no divorce is allowed).

I don't see the practice of Lent as comparable to daily sacrifices due to commandments. The choice to give up and sacrifice something for Lent is a personal choice and if a person is living righteously, will be something that is good rather than something that is against the commandments. Lent is about, it seems to me, laying something that one treasures on the altar of the Lord and then when the time of consecration is done, taking it up again as one of the many blessings that God gives (add-on: or in the case it is a sin, leaving it forever on that altar).

This is a completely different attitude than the one LDS have when they approach their sacrifices for the vast majority of them (there are some cases where someone might give up a wonderful job due to family demands that might approach it but even with that I suspect the attitude is quite different due to the context).

Edited February 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

And if this is the case, what can the lds actually give up when it comes to Lent?

You are acting as if the only things given up for Lent are sins, but it would seem from the descriptions this is not in line with what is meant by making sacrifices for this holy time, that Catholics are instructed to give up sins at all times (of course) and Lent is something in a different category.

For Lent, LDS could give up going to the temple, listening to the MTC, reading FARMS/MI books, posting on message boards, doing genealogy or a thousand other things that are wonderful and good and that they enjoy and could put aside that enjoyment for 40 days in order to experience in some small way God's putting aside his enjoyment of life for mankind (if I understand the purpose of Lent correctly, if not I apologize...tell me and I will go reread the posts with more concentration).

Edited February 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[why me]

Just which Christian denomination teaches that premarital sex is okay unless of course you give it up for lent? And how many Christians who practice lent observances do you think also practice premarital or extra marital sex? The attitude by some on this thread is that LDS are such exemplars of spiritual practice all the time (unlike those Catholics or what ever) that they have no need of a period of reflection. Exactly the attitude of your missionaries at my door. And no the police don't laugh, they send a squad car, presumably to explain to the arrogant ones just what our ordinance means.

How many churches excommunicate for premarital sex? Or for adultery? And this is a possibility in the lds faith. What I am saying is: Lent is beautiful and a wonderful way for Christians to get closer to God. And sure, the lds can also practice lent. But Lent is actually a 365 day process. We should be reflecting, praying etc throughout the year and living the commandments as best as possible. And in this way, we honor the crucifix and the sacrifice what was made.

[why me]

You are acting as if the only things given up for Lent are sins, but it would seem from the descriptions this is not in line with what is meant by making sacrifices for this holy time, that Catholics are instructed to give up sins at all times (of course) and Lent is something in a different category.

For Lent, LDS could give up going to the temple, listening to the MTC, reading FARMS/MI books, posting on message boards, doing genealogy or a thousand other things that are wonderful and good and that they enjoy and could put aside that enjoyment for 40 days in order to experience in some small way God's putting aside his enjoyment of life for mankind (if I understand the purpose of Lent correctly, if not I apologize...tell me and I will go reread the posts with more concentration).

It is up to the individual. But I have one friend who is giving up chocolate but not premarital sex with his girlfriend. This is something that I don't understand but I can respect his decision. I guess I took issue in the beginning with the critique that Mormons do not officially have Lent.

[Tacenda]

I know. I have just been banned from the Dehlin thread for putting my foot in my mouth. However, my point here is simple. The lds lifestyle is one of 'sacrifice'. We have many young adults who would love to have a beer with their friends or have premarital sex but don't because it goes against the commandments as laid down in the lds church. In terms of secular values, the lds lifestyle is strict. And if this is the case, what can the lds actually give up when it comes to Lent?

But in actuality all they're giving up is a hangover and some terrible one night stands possibly, so all around the LDS got the better deal, imo. But do admit that we certainly aren't the only Christians who don't believe in premarital sex. And there are many inactive or active LDS that break the rule. So you both have a leg to stand on Why Me. Edited February 16, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

How many churches excommunicate for premarital sex? Or for adultery? And this is a possibility in the lds faith. What I am saying is: Lent is beautiful and a wonderful way for Christians to get closer to God. And sure, the lds can also practice lent. But Lent is actually a 365 day process. We should be reflecting, praying etc throughout the year and living the commandments as best as possible. And in this way, we honor the crucifix and the sacrifice what was made.

A Catholic who was practicing Lent is likely practicing chastity according to the Catholic Church's teachings as well or at least trying to live that way so is highly unlikely in my view going to be giving up premarital sex for Lent since it would not be something new that they were attempting to abstain from nor would their attempt to give it up be only for 40 days. Nor would it be viewed as a "luxury", but as a sin. Edited February 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

It is up to the individual. But I have one friend who is giving up chocolate but not premarital sex with his girlfriend. This is something that I don't understand but I can respect his decision. I guess I took issue in the beginning with the critique that Mormons do not officially have Lent.

What is wrong with admitting that LDS don't follow the practice of Lent? Is there anything in the scriptures that demonstrate it is a commandment? Anything that makes us less Christian or less seeking God because we don't practice it?

Since your friend likely views premarital sex as a sin according to his faith and not as some loved object or activity, it is understandable why he is giving up chocolate and not sex for Lent. Lent is not about giving up sins, but about giving up luxuries and living a more devoted life that way. I would assume that every day of the year is for giving up sins according to the Catholic faith (and most others).

Edited February 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[Yirgacheffe]

How many churches excommunicate for premarital sex? Or for adultery? And this is a possibility in the lds faith. What I am saying is: Lent is beautiful and a wonderful way for Christians to get closer to God. And sure, the lds can also practice lent. But Lent is actually a 365 day process. We should be reflecting, praying etc throughout the year and living the commandments as best as possible. And in this way, we honor the crucifix and the sacrifice what was made.

And other Christians don't do this all year only at lent. You only see good in LDS and regard the rest of Christianity with a jaundiced eye.

Calmoriah you (and Blue dreams?) go a long way in battling the ugliness and arrogance of other posters but unfortunately theirs is the attitude I've met live in person.

[Tacenda]

And other Christians don't do this all year only at lent. You only see good in LDS and regard the rest of Christianity with a jaundiced eye.

Calmoriah you (and Blue dreams?) go a long way in battling the ugliness and arrogance of other posters but unfortunately theirs is the attitude I've met live in person.

Good call on these two ladies.

[Calm]

But Lent is actually a 365 day process.

No, it is not. We are not commanded to give up luxuries and good things we enjoy in order to better seek out God. If they happen to get in the way of seeking out God, then we should choose to give them up, but not just to show devotion or to help us experience God's suffering.

[Calm]

Calmoriah you (and Blue dreams?) go a long way in battling the ugliness and arrogance of other posters but unfortunately theirs is the attitude I've met live in person.

Thank you.

I think a lot of people have mistaken assumptions about other faiths and this can get in the way of learning what is real because new information is interpreted in that way, but I also think a lot of misunderstanding occurs on both sides interfering with communication (because each side doesn't understand the assumptions that other side has and so they can't view what is being said according to the actual paradigms).

And it is unfortunate that many LDS have the attitude of us being on top of the spiritual 'food chain' so to speak. That is too good of a position from which to have a deep and fatal fall.