Star Base Kolob

[Darren10]

Well, I think that if you read Abraham 3 carefully it is pretty clear that the stars are supposed to symbolize the spirit children of God (which isn't to say that Kolob isn't an actual star). Kolob is said to be the star closest to God and his first creation, so clearly it is meant to represent Jesus Christ.

That makes perfect sense especially since all the governances of the priesthood, from my understanding, goes through Kolob. That would make the star Kolob a type for Christ.

[Ahab]

I realized right away you had a very legitimate and compelling point. It's just that I couldn't help but get a good belly laugh, imagining what it would be like to sit down with a mad dog anti and trying to explain to him that the Star Base Kolob concept is true mormon theology. LOL!

Calms them right down, usually, and they'll usually chuckle right along with you.

They get enough wrong. Let's acknowledge it when they get something right. There's still a lot left to cover.

[ERMD]

That makes perfect sense especially since all the governances of the priesthood, from my understanding, goes through Kolob. That would make the star Kolob a type for Christ.

That is correct.

[Darren10]

ERMD;

This connects to a recent dialogue I had of whether or not God actually does things. What I've come to learn and understand over the years is that God does really do things, like create Kolob, ias a testimony to Him and His Son. I think, for example, that raising one's own children within one's own family allows first-hand experience to the caregivers as to how God the Father raises us. So something fundamental as having a family plays a part in one's deification First-hand *real* experiences teaches man in way which cannot come about by any other means, how to become more like God. Certain events *have to happen* in a very real, tangible, sense, in order to teach man certain things. Afterall, isn't that why we are actually here on earth?

Edited January 15, 2013 by Darren10

[teddyaware]

Exactly. not only that but during one interation from one LDS antagonist on another website I corrected his assertion that mormons believe that Kolob is a planet. I pointed him directly to the doctrine showing no mention of it being a planet but assigned among the stars and that Mormons do not believe that God resides on Kolob, his source of information was to point ot Battlestar Gallactica. I, of course, acknowledged that the storyline was written by a Mormon and thus I had no doubt he used his knowledge of Kolob to come up with the planet "Kobol" (I think that was the name of it) I asked, "so what". The Matrix borrowed heavily from the Bible. There's nothing wrong in using one's beliefs to write science fiction, in fact, I think that's one aspect which makes science fiction so interesting.

Darren,

Here's where I think the problem lies: Most rank-and-file traditional Christians kind of view heaven as being a sort of ethereal, semi-amorphous, quasi-imaginary world of immaterial substance (immaterial substance...hummmm). So the thought that God actually exists and lives somwhere in the visible, material universe grates on their traditionally informed thinking, You know, when you speak of a God whose supposed to be the ultimate reality of all existence and yet he is said to have no body, parts or passions; is said to be immaterial and sitting atop a topless throne; is everywhere yet nowhere in particular; having no form or shape but is, rather, a sort of disembodied mind or, if you like, a pure essence of thought, one can understand the idea of God having a material body and living somewhere out there in the universe on a real material planet is totally unacceptable, if not utterly incomprehensible.

Edited January 15, 2013 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

Darren,

Here's where I think the problem lies: Most rank-and-file traditional Christians kind of view heaven as being a sort of ethereal, semi-amorphous, quasi-imaginary world of immaterial substance (immaterial substance...hummmm). So the thought that God actually exists and lives somwhere in the visible, material universe grates on their traditionally informed thinking, You know, when you speak of a God whose supposed to be the ultimate reality of all existence and yet he is said to have no body, parts or passions; is said to be immaterial and sitting atop a topless throne; is everywhere yet nowhere in particular; having no form or shape but is, rather, a sort of disembodied mind or, if you like, a pure essence of thought, one can understand the idea of God having a material body and living somewhere out there in the universe on a real material planet is totally unacceptable, if not utterly incomprehensible.

I was talking to someone recently who said he believes a black hole may be an entrance to the "void" where (he believes) God lives, a place with nothing in it but God which exists apart from the universe the rest of us live in. I tried to set him straight, but I won't know if it clicked for him for a little while yet. He did say he believed God would look like us, if we could see him. I'm not sure if he means what we mean when we say that.

[teddyaware]

I was talking to someone recently who said he believes a black hole may be an entrance to the "void" where (he believes) God lives, a place with nothing in it but God which exists apart from the universe the rest of us live in. I tried to set him straight, but I won't know if it clicked for him for a little while yet. He did say he believed God would look like us, if we could see him. I'm not sure if he means what we mean when we say that.

This black hole theory is interesting because it sounds like someone wanting it both ways -- God existing in the real material universe, but not really. The whole quantum mechanics thing, with its bending of space, time and matter, makes the theory, at least outwardly, seem a plausible bit of speculation.

[canard78]

I'd mention something about how it really is a type of star base, meaning how that star plays a central role in our Father's creations.

I don't know if we're told how many orders of stars there are, but the idea behind Kolob being a star base, in truth, is about how there is a high order of stars which govern a lesser order of stars, and possibly a lesser order after that one, and possibly a lesser order after that one, (etc, maybe, who knows how long that goes on) and then we come to our order of stars, including our sun, all of which are governed by the highest order of stars, including Kolob. I don't think we know if Kolob is the highest star in the highest order, but we do know it's in the highest order of stars. And I think it's presumed that all galaxies of stars are ordered this way.

Anyway, I'd get into that a little bit. It may not help them to understand the truth of it but then again maybe it might.

My knowledge of how stars work and interact is pretty ropey. Would that float with an astronomer?

[Darren10]

teddy #30;

That's very much the way I see it. To traditional Christians, declaring, or even implying, that God *is* material, perfected and exalted material, but material nonetheless, is sort of a disallusionment. What I find unfortunate are those who'd mock instead of learn the LDS doctrines and to understand them. The only reason embodying God lowers God is based upon man's philosophy, not scripture doctrine. Understanding the LDS doctrines regarsding God and His exaltation leaves absolutely no room for lessoning God. It merely declares God as He is and as He exists.

[Darren10]

sort of ethereal

Yes, but what about mithril?

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Edited January 15, 2013 by Darren10

[teddyaware]

teddy #30;

That's very much the way I see it. To traditional Christians, declaring, or even implying, that God *is* material, perfected and exalted material, but material nonetheless, is sort of a disallusionment. What I find unfortunate are those who'd mock instead of learn the LDS doctrines and to understand them. The only reason embodying God lowers God is based upon man's philosophy, not scripture doctrine. Understanding the LDS doctrines regarsding God and His exaltation leaves absolutely no room for lessoning God. It merely declares God as He is and as He exists.

You've got it! B. H. Roberts, in his Mormon Doctine of Diety, said that Jesus Christ himself belies the false notions historical Christians hold about the true nature of the being of God the Father. The reason being that Christ proves he can be God while also possessing a glorified body of flesh and bone.. As Paul so powerfully taught:

"8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2)

So if Christ is fully God, while having a resurrected body of flesh and bone, how would God the Father having a glorious body of flesh and bone in any way at all detract from his perfection as God. If it happened once in the instance of the Son (i.e. gaining a glorified body of flesh and bone), why couldn't it happen as well in the case of the Father. In fact, wouldn't an embodied God the Father have an advantage over a disembodied, "immaterial" God?" Yes, because the fulness of his Godhead would remain the same, while he would have a material presence whereby he could interact with his children with the same endearing physical interaction as occured (for instance) with the resurrected Son and Mary Magdalene on Easter morning.

Edited January 15, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

And so I now return, as promised, to explain how I would engage an anti who mockingly employs the expression "Star Base Kolob" against us.

Just imagine it's one billion earth years from now and God the Father has created another planet like unto our own. And let's suppose said planet is populated with human beings who are just like us (since God has done so here, it doesn't seem so difficult to believe he could do so again). And let's suppose they have living prophets of God amongst them, just as we do here on this world.

Now imagine one of the prophets of that world (let's call said world Bolok, for want of a better name) is about to testify to a gathered crowd of average but bemused folks. He opens his mouth and begins to speak, saying:

Now, I know many of you have been wondering where the God whom I preach came from. And so the time has fully come when I will show you the truth of the matter...

"My beloved brethren and sisters, God has commanded me to come unto you this day to reveal a great mystery. You see, along time ago and far, far away there was a once a star located within the outer edges of a galaxy known as the Milky Way. That star was a relatively small one, kind of a lower middle-class star, if you will. And orbiting around that star was a planet much like ours, and the human inhabitants of that planet called it "earth."

Now about one billion years ago, on this planet called earth, God -- now I know what I'm about to tell you will sound very strange, but it the truth nonetheless -- was born on that rather small planet as a helpless little baby boy (the crowd begins to murmer). His mother was a mortal like us. But his Father was a divine being also called God. Yes, I know it sound's very odd, indeed, but it is verily true that our God was born on that remote planet, so many millions of light years away from here. As a matter of fact, he was born in a stable in the midst of braying, domesitcated earthly animals (crowd begins to gaffaw).

Now, like other children, our God grew up on that seemingly insignificant planet. We don't know much about his growing up years, but we do know there was one notable occasion when his actions made his mother and earthly stepfather worried sick over him (crowd begins to chuckle).

And when he was about thirty years old (a voice in the crowd is heard to shout "come on, give us a brake") he began to teach and preach the truth of eternity to one small and distinct population group of people to whom his Father commanded him to minister. And he performed many mighty miracles, like walking on water and turning water into wine (crowd explodes with raucus laughter).

The prophet then indignantly said, "I'm finished here, sacred truth will not be mocked."

And the crowd hooted loudly with mockery, and laughed the poor, discouraged prophet to scorn

Later that day the saying went abroad, "Hey did you know God was once a helpless little baby who was born in a stable on a planet called Star Base Earth!" And the saying was followed by even more uproarious laughter.

Lather that night, as the humble prophet laid his weary head down to rest, he considered himself fortunate that he didn't get around to informing the crowd their God died one very sad day on that lowly, little planet called they called earth.

Edited January 15, 2013 by teddyaware

[volgadon]

Kolob = Qalb = Heart

I think korov is a better match, and I even have a source to support the L vs. R bit.

[glitterNgold]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is it considered a negative thing to believe God lives on a planet called Kolob? I personally think this is pretty rad.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I think korov is a better match, and I even have a source to support the L vs. R bit.

Well, out with it, man!

[volgadon]

Well, out with it, man!

Ok, here are my brief thoughts. Korob in Hebrew means near. This keeps the word grouped with the other Hebrew words in the chapter. It also explains the two "o"s better than Qalb does. The Sefer Yetzirah lists paired letters, hard and soft, each pair having one letter with a dagesh, the other without. For example, "b" and "v." One of the pairs is reish, that is, "r." So, there were two ways of relaising the "r" sound, and one was harder than the other.

[Storm Rider]

There are so many wonderful things that need to known and lived to obtain Exaltation. If someone knows of or is completely ignorant of Kolob is of no worth. It is completely irrelevant for one's personal salvation, growth, spiritual health, or for having a personal relationship with God. It is so completely meaningless that it only causes a yawn when some twit seeks to criticize the Church of Jesus Christ because it is mentioned in a hymn that is rarely sung. The value of knowing or thinking about Kolob is equal to the value of navel fuzz and both will do as much for our salvation.

[Darren10]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is it considered a negative thing to believe God lives on a planet called Kolob? I personally think this is pretty rad.

I very much think God lives on a planet and will do so until His Christ celestializes this planet and then God will "move his stuff here", so to speak. I just don't believe it's Kolob God inhabits. in fact, Kolob is not even a planet so far anyone knows.

[Darren10]

Well, out with it, man!

Sometimes you gotta burp Volgadon to get things out of him.

[volgadon]

Sometimes you gotta burp Volgadon to get things out of him.

Academic colic.

[volgadon]

I very much think God lives on a planet and will do so until His Christ celestializes this planet and then God will "move his stuff here", so to speak. I just don't believe it's Kolob God inhabits. in fact, Kolob is not even a planet so far anyone knows.

Planet and star tended to be synonymous.

[Damien the Leper]

I wish to know, sincerely, what a Book of the Dead and burial rituals have to do with the Book of Abraham.

[volgadon]

I wish to know, sincerely, what a Book of the Dead and burial rituals have to do with the Book of Abraham.

I'm working on it.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Ok, here are my brief thoughts. Korob in Hebrew means near. This keeps the word grouped with the other Hebrew words in the chapter. It also explains the two "o"s better than Qalb does. The Sefer Yetzirah lists paired letters, hard and soft, each pair having one letter with a dagesh, the other without. For example, "b" and "v." One of the pairs is reish, that is, "r." So, there were two ways of relaising the "r" sound, and one was harder than the other.

Nice! Can't recall seeing this speculation before. Looking forward to reading it with full sources and whatnot in a journal somewhere, hint hintttt.

I'm working on it.

That one, too.

Valentinus, here's a page over at By Common Consent with some good sources in the notes section to follow up on for understanding the relationship. (Tho frankly, I think Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri was more ahead of its time than some give it credit for, and is still a fantastic book.)

[Darren10]

Planet and star tended to be synonymous.

That would make sense.