Star Base Kolob

[teddyaware]

Hello folks,

This thread might take on a more light-hearted tone...

If you do an Internet search on the expression "Star Base Kolob," you'll find critics of Mormon theology often utilize it mockingly as a way to "inform" their readers and listeners as to where we Latter Day Saints supposedly believe God the Father resides. Here are a couple of examples:

"Thousands of years later, Elohim in human form once again journeyed to earth from the star base Kolob."

and another...

"The church teaches that everything starts on the Star-Base Kolob from whence we came, and everything will end on Kolob to which we shall return if we are worthy."

I have some thoughts I'd like to share as to just how I would challenge someone who has used (or is using) this choice of words to describe what we Latter Day Saints allegedly believe concerning God's heavenly abode -- and I'll set forth that apologetic defence in a subsequent post. But before doing so, I first wanted to hear from other participants on this board to learn how they would mount a challenge to this claim.

If the premise of this thread is considered too silly and time wasting for many of you, I'll understand.

Edited January 14, 2013 by teddyaware

[Darren10]

The first thing I do is direct folks directly to the LDS doctrine regarding Kolob.

2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

Abraham 3

What we know about Kolob is that it is a star and that it is the star nearest to God. God is not "from' Kolob", nor does He inhabit it. I guess the attempt to trivialize Kolob is to reduce LDS theology to "kids stuff". Also, I recognize that the doctrines of Kolob does imply a God taking up time and space which I understand goes against the grain of traditional Christianity. I've no problem sharing this with anyone.

What makes the most sense ot me as to why God would reveal the existence fo Kolob to Abraham was to prepare him for his mission to Egypt where Pharaoh believed in a divine astrological hierarchy. I other words, Abraham would teach God's truth to Pharaoh according to Pharaoh's own language and understanding. It would also serve to pronounce Abraham's divine authority before Pharaoh.

To me the doctrines regarding Kolob and the astrological creation which is God the Father's is a powerful and beautiful doctrine in and of itself but frankly it has little to do wth LDS faith or worship; nor should it.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Darren10

[CV75]

Hello folks,

This thread might take on a more light-hearted tone...

If you do an Internet search on the expression "Star Base Kolob," you'll find critics of Mormon theology often utilize it mockingly as a way to "inform" their readers and listeners as to where we Latter Day Saints supposedly believe God the Father resides. Here are a couple of examples:

"Thousands of years later, Elohim in human form once again journeyed to earth from the star base Kolob."

and another...

"The church teaches that everything starts on the Star-Base Kolob from whence we came, and everything will end on Kolob to which we shall return if we are worthy."

I have some thoughts I'd like to share as to just how I would challenge someone who has used (or is using) this choice of words to describe what we Latter Day Saints supposedly believe concerning God's heavenly abode -- and I'll set forth that apologetic defence in a subsequent post. But before doing so, I first wanted to hear from other participants on this board to learn how they would mount a challenge to this claim.

If the premise of this thread is considered too silly and time wasting for many of you, I'll understand.

Are you going for a light-hearted response to a light-hearted jab, one that corrects the factual errors in such statements, or one that corrects the ignorance in mocking a faith?

[teddyaware]

The first thing I do is direct folks directly to the LDS doctrine regarding Kolob.

Abraham 3

What we know about Kolob is that it is a star and that it is the star nearest to God. God is not "from' Kolob", nor does He inhabit it. I guess the attempt to trivialize Kolob is to reduce LDS theology to "kids stuff". Also, I recognize that the doctrines of Kolob does imply a God taking up time and space which I understand goes against the grain of traditional Christianity. I've no problem sharing this with anyone.

What makes the most sense ot me as to why God would reveal the existence fo Kolob to Abraham was to prepare him for his mission to Egypt where Pharaoh believed in a divine astrological hierarchy. I other words, Abraham would teach God's truth to Pharaoh according to Pharaoh's own language and understanding. It would also serve to pronounce Abraham's divine authority before Pharaoh.

To me the doctrines regarding Kolob and the astrological creation which is God the Father's is a powerful and beautiful doctrine in and of itself but frankly it has little to do wth LDS faith ro worship; nor should it.

Excellent, Darren! I especially enjoy the insight into the Lord instructing Abraham on the true and sacred nature of astronomy and the cosmos as preparation for the prophet's interactions with Pharaoh. I'd heard this observation before, but you've refreshed my memory.

Also of key importance here is understanding that, according to the Book of Abraham, God dwells near Kolob, not on Kolob -- there's a a very imortant difference between the two. And the fact that our critics speak erroneously on this point indicates either poor reading comprehension or a diliberate, dishonest attempt to twist the plain meaning of words so as to ridicule and denigrate the beliefs of the Latter Day Saints.

On another point, unfortunately, the mere spelling and sound of the word "Kolob" lends itself to ridicule because it sounds to 21st century ears like something out of Star Wars or Star Trek.

Edited January 14, 2013 by teddyaware

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Kolob = Qalb = Heart

We live on a planet orbiting a star. We build ships to the moon and (hopefully, someday) to other worlds. Should we be ashamed of these things just because the name "Kolob" sounds goofy to parochial 20th century Americans? There is nothing inherently embarrassing about "science fiction" except to elitists who think Star Trek is just for nerds and who don't recognize that all the mythic tropes found in science fiction and fantasy are descended from ancient literature. ("Vulcans", like the God of Volcanoes? Spock's 'Live Long and Prosper' hand symbol as one half of the Kohanim Priestly Blessing representing Shaddai?) The radical materialism of Mormon cosmology is one of the best things about it. Decker's prudishly horrified conservative cartoon is hilarious; meanwhile, Doctor Who is brilliant.

[teddyaware]

Are you going for a light-hearted response to a light-hearted jab, one that corrects the factual errors in such statements, or one that corrects the ignorance in mocking a faith?

Go anywhere with this you want. If you want to let mockers have a strong dose of corrective medicine, blast away!

[teddyaware]

Kolob = Qalb = Heart

We live on a planet orbiting a star. We build ships to the moon and (hopefully, someday) to other worlds. Should we be ashamed of these things just because the name "Kolob" sounds goofy to parochial 20th century Americans? There is nothing inherently embarrassing about "science fiction" except to elitists who think Star Trek is just for nerds and who don't recognize that all the mythic tropes found in science fiction and fantasy are descended from ancient literature. ("Vulcans", like the God of Volcanoes? Spock's 'Live Long and Prosper' hand symbol as one half of the Kohanim Priestly Blessing representing Shaddai?) The radical materialism of Mormon cosmology is one of the best things about it. Decker's prudishly horrified conservative cartoon is hilarious; meanwhile, Doctor Who is brilliant.

You're well onto that track of what I'm going to say on this point, and I find it gratifying.

[rockpond]

I think that Darren & Jeremy have made great points. But arguing with someone who uses the term "star base Kolob" is likely futile as they probably believe the entire book of Abraham to be a work of fiction.

And yes, I said it, resistance is futile.

[altersteve]

What makes the most sense ot me as to why God would reveal the existence fo Kolob to Abraham was to prepare him for his mission to Egypt where Pharaoh believed in a divine astrological hierarchy. I other words, Abraham would teach God's truth to Pharaoh according to Pharaoh's own language and understanding. It would also serve to pronounce Abraham's divine authority before Pharaoh.

Never thought of it that way.

[teddyaware]

I think that Darren & Jeremy have made great points. But arguing with someone who uses the term "star base Kolob" is likely futile as they probably believe the entire book of Abraham to be a work of fiction.

And yes, I said it, resistance is futile.

You are correct. Nevertheless, after I post my main comment on this thread's topic later this evening, I'm hoping what I have to say might at least generate a few twinges of embarrasment by the adolescent-minded LDS critics who make use of that absurd, mocking phrase.

[altersteve]

"Vulcans", like the God of Volcanoes?

I guess that would spark some speculation as to what the volcano is all about in the

. It does for me at least.

Sorry, carry on.

[mapman]

Well, I think that if you read Abraham 3 carefully it is pretty clear that the stars are supposed to symbolize the spirit children of God (which isn't to say that Kolob isn't an actual star). Kolob is said to be the star closest to God and his first creation, so clearly it is meant to represent Jesus Christ.

Edited January 14, 2013 by mapman

[teddyaware]

Well, I think that if you read Abraham 3 carefully it is pretty clear that the stars are supposed to symbolize the spirit children of God (which isn't to say that Kolob isn't an actual star). Kolob is said to be the star closest to God and his first creation, so clearly it is meant to represent Jesus Christ.

Now that's good stuff!

[teddyaware]

I guess that would spark some speculation as to what the volcano is all about in the

. It does for me at least.

Sorry, carry on.

LOL!

[altersteve]

Deleted.

Edited January 14, 2013 by altersteve

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I guess that would spark some speculation as to what the volcano is all about in the new Star Trek Into Darkness trailer. It does for me at least.

Heh heh heh. Can't wait for that to be released! Ender's Game is coming this year, too.

Seriously, some of the best and most morally-complicated movies in the past decade have been sci-fi/fantasy: Moon, Inception, Sunshine, The Fountain, The Fall, 28 Days Later, The Prestige, Where the Wild Things Are, Reign of Fire (no, seriously, don't look at me like that), House of Flying Daggers, The Matrix, Mirrormask, the Batman Trilogy, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Serenity, Pan's Labyrinth, Prometheus (despite the obvious stupidities, I mean), Children of Men, District 9, Womb, Melancholia, Seeking a Friend for the End of the World, Antichrist, Chronicle, Cloud Atlas ...

[Ahab]

I'd mention something about how it really is a type of star base, meaning how that star plays a central role in our Father's creations.

I don't know if we're told how many orders of stars there are, but the idea behind Kolob being a star base, in truth, is about how there is a high order of stars which govern a lesser order of stars, and possibly a lesser order after that one, and possibly a lesser order after that one, (etc, maybe, who knows how long that goes on) and then we come to our order of stars, including our sun, all of which are governed by the highest order of stars, including Kolob. I don't think we know if Kolob is the highest star in the highest order, but we do know it's in the highest order of stars. And I think it's presumed that all galaxies of stars are ordered this way.

Anyway, I'd get into that a little bit. It may not help them to understand the truth of it but then again maybe it might.

[ERMD]

Since it's from "The God-Makers", it deserves no response, IMHO.

[teddyaware]

I'd mention something about how it really is a type of star base, meaning how that star plays a central role in our Father's creations.

I don't know if we're told how many orders of stars there are, but the idea behind Kolob being a star base, in truth, is about how there is a high order of stars which govern a lesser order of stars, and possibly a lesser order after that one, and possibly a lesser order after that one, (etc, maybe, who knows how long that goes on) and then we come to our order of stars, including our sun, all of which are governed by the highest order of stars, including Kolob. I don't think we know if Kolob is the highest star in the highest order, but we do know it's in the highest order of stars. And I think it's presumed that all galaxies of stars are ordered this way.

Anyway, I'd get into that a little bit. It may not help them to understand the truth of it but then again maybe it might.

So what you're saying is go with the whole Star Base Kolob thing and convince them they've actually got it right? LOL!!!

[Ahab]

So what you're saying is go with the whole Star Base Kolob thing and convince them they've actually got it right? LOL!!!

I'm saying there is some truth to what they're saying even though they're not using the right words, necessarily.

Kolob is a star that serves as a base for our Father's creations. Let's try to help them understand that.

[Ahab]

Since it's from "The God-Makers", it deserves no response, IMHO.

I've thought about watching that video with someone anti while stopping it at certain points to give some more details. It's not as if it's totally wrong. There are just some parts that need some more clarification.

[Darren10]

Also of key importance here is understanding that, according to the Book of Abraham, God dwells near Kolob, not on Kolob -- there's a a very imortant difference between the two. And the fact that our critics speak erroneously on this point indicates either poor reading comprehension or a diliberate, dishonest attempt to twist the plain meaning of words so as to ridicule and denigrate the beliefs of the Latter Day Saints.

On another point, unfortunately, the mere spelling and sound of the word "Kolob" lends itself to ridicule because it sounds to 21st century ears like something out of Star Wars or Star Trek.

Exactly. not only that but during one interation from one LDS antagonist on another website I corrected his assertion that mormons believe that Kolob is a planet. I pointed him directly to the doctrine showing no mention of it being a planet but assigned among the stars and that Mormons do not believe that God resides on Kolob, his source of information was to point ot Battlestar Gallactica. I, of course, acknowledged that the storyline was written by a Mormon and thus I had no doubt he used his knowledge of Kolob to come up with the planet "Kobol" (I think that was the name of it) I asked, "so what". The Matrix borrowed heavily from the Bible. There's nothing wrong in using one's beliefs to write science fiction, in fact, I think that's one aspect which makes science fiction so interesting.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Darren10

[teddyaware]

I'm saying there is some truth to what they're saying even though they're not using the right words, necessarily.

Kolob is a star that serves as a base for our Father's creations. Let's try to help them understand that.

I realized right away you had a very legitimate and compelling point. It's just that I couldn't help but get a good belly laugh, imagining what it would be like to sit down with a mad dog anti and trying to explain to him that the Star Base Kolob concept is true mormon theology. LOL!

[Darren10]

Kolob = Qalb = Heart

We live on a planet orbiting a star. We build ships to the moon and (hopefully, someday) to other worlds. Should we be ashamed of these things just because the name "Kolob" sounds goofy to parochial 20th century Americans? There is nothing inherently embarrassing about "science fiction" except to elitists who think Star Trek is just for nerds and who don't recognize that all the mythic tropes found in science fiction and fantasy are descended from ancient literature. ("Vulcans", like the God of Volcanoes? Spock's 'Live Long and Prosper' hand symbol as one half of the Kohanim Priestly Blessing representing Shaddai?) The radical materialism of Mormon cosmology is one of the best things about it. Decker's prudishly horrified conservative cartoon is hilarious; meanwhile, Doctor Who is brilliant.

Very good point, Jeremy.

[Darren10]

And yes, I said it, resistance is futile.

You forgot something →

Edited January 14, 2013 by Darren10