Ahab Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 A Post Hoc rationalizationBecause just like claiming there is no God. It is a Post Hoc rationalization.You are not being simple. You are starting from an unsupportable idea(God), and claiming he is self evident. AKA A Post Hoc rationalization.People through out history have used logic and intelligence to the field of the Supernatural, and all we are stuck with is belief. Either as some type of Theist or some type of Atheist.I don't know why you can't see my point, and I don't want to make any judgments against you, but I think if you think about this issue from a logical perspective you'll clearly see that there must be a supreme being out of all of the beings there are, and the word we use to refer to the most supreme being is God.Can't say it more simply than that. If you still don't get it, it's not my problem.
teddyaware Posted January 16, 2013 Author Posted January 16, 2013 I do wonder how much people stop to think about the logical consistency of their own beliefs. I for one, do not like to go there if I'm feeling practical and down to earth.Then you and I may have different perspectives. I know my beliefs to be logical and logically consistent. So If I'm feeling practical and down to earth, as you say, it's as good a time as any to engage in some critical thinking about my beliefs.
thesometimesaint Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 What if you already have and you just didn't realize you were? How do you know what is of God and what isn't?There is a difference between knowing which being is the most supreme being and knowing there is a supreme being.I realize you can't know what you don't know, but what if the most supreme being you know about is really the most supreme being there is. On this planet that would be us, I believe. Don't you agree? If all living beings in existence are on this planet then the most supreme being here is the one we can properly refer to as god/God.So the most supreme being is by defintion supernatural, and if we are the most supreme then we are God.But what if you didn't know God was the most supreme being? What if you thought he was just an alien life form from some other planet? How would you know he was God?I'll call that a given.Can't a God bleed?We could, at least in theory, be part of a highly elaborate SIMS game. But if we were what would be the point of discussing, if there were a master programer?Wouldn't it be more useful for flees to discuss which dog was the supreme dog? There is no known natural way to measure the effect of a Supernatural being, or mechanism. Be they Gods, Ghosts, Devils, or Magic To put any Supernatural being or mechanism into science violates the rules. It would be like playing football by basketball rules. Sure you could do it, but it would make hash of both, and you probably wouldn't like the game.It is a religious belief we are Gods. As a LDS I'm fine with that. However as a scientist I can't let that belief influence what my science is showing me. Say you're riding a bicycle and you fall off. Most of us have at one time or another. Would it be logical to claim God pushed you off? How would you demonstrate that to someone who didn't believe God did such things?From our perspective he is a alien from another world. What other characteristics he may or may not have are religious belief.Not in our beliefs. He is a being of flesh and bone not of blood. How all that works I have no clue.
altersteve Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 Anyone is able to figure that out, including atheists, unless they're mentally retarded or something like that.Wow... did you seriously just say that?
Ahab Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 We could, at least in theory, be part of a highly elaborate SIMS game. But if we were what would be the point of discussing, if there were a master programer?Wouldn't it be more useful for flees to discuss which dog was the supreme dog?There is no known natural way to measure the effect of a Supernatural being, or mechanism. Be they Gods, Ghosts, Devils, or Magic To put any Supernatural being or mechanism into science violates the rules. It would be like playing football by basketball rules. Sure you could do it, but it would make hash of both, and you probably wouldn't like the game.It is a religious belief we are Gods. As a LDS I'm fine with that. However as a scientist I can't let that belief influence what my science is showing me. Say you're riding a bicycle and you fall off. Most of us have at one time or another. Would it be logical to claim God pushed you off? How would you demonstrate that to someone who didn't believe God did such things?From our perspective he is a alien from another world. What other characteristics he may or may not have are religious belief.Not in our beliefs. He is a being of flesh and bone not of blood. How all that works I have no clue.You seem to keep side stepping my questions asking how you would know if something or someone was natural or supernatural. If we are the most supreme being, not just in a belief but as a matter of fact, then any experiment on us is an experiement on the most supreme being (or God) even if we're not as advanced as we can be. Even in our current state, as mortals, we are still the same kind of being God is, hence we are supernatural, as a matter of fact and not just a belief.Stop trying so hard to be a scientist and just think of it, man! Jesus bled and he was always the same kind of being as God.
Ahab Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 Wow... did you seriously just say that?Yes, and my point was that anyone should be able to see there is a God as long as they can think with logic and intelligence. God is a word we use to refer to the most supreme being, and there must be a supreme being among all of the beings there are.
thesometimesaint Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 I don't know why you can't see my point, and I don't want to make any judgments against you, but I think if you think about this issue from a logical perspective you'll clearly see that there must be a supreme being out of all of the beings there are, and the word we use to refer to the most supreme being is God.Can't say it more simply than that. If you still don't get it, it's not my problem.I'm not making any judgement against you. Just your arguments.It is not logical to use a Post Hoc rationalization to justify a conclusion.I believe in God. I personally know scientists whom also believe in God, and some of them are LDS. While we all are deeply interested how God works. TTBOMK Neither I or any of them use God to explain how he works.But you are not being simple. Your arguments are jumping from "Z" yo "A" without the intervening letters. In effect you are saying that because I believe "Z" exists then "A" through "Y" must also.
altersteve Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Yes, and my point was that anyone should be able to see there is a God as long as they can think with logic and intelligence. God is a word we use to refer to the most supreme being, and there must be a supreme being among all of the beings there are.No, most people use the word God to refer to the creator of the universe. Atheists do not believe in such a thing, but this does not make them "mentally retarded" or less able to "think with logic and intelligence" than you can.Seriously, I still can't believe you actually said that. Edited January 16, 2013 by altersteve
Ahab Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 I'm not making any judgement against you. Just your arguments.It is not logical to use a Post Hoc rationalization to justify a conclusion.I believe in God. I personally know scientists whom also believe in God, and some of them are LDS. While we all are deeply interested how God works. TTBOMK Neither I or any of them use God to explain how he works.But you are not being simple. Your arguments are jumping from "Z" yo "A" without the intervening letters. In effect you are saying that because I believe "Z" exists then "A" through "Y" must also.Okay, here are the things anyone needs to understand to be able to realize there is a God.1) there are different kinds of living beings in existence, with some more intelligent and thus more supreme than some other kinds of living beings.2) the word "God" refers to the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, and by that I mean that whatever kind of being is the most supreme kind of being in all of existence is the kind of being which can properly be referred to as God.... btw, notice no "religious" ideas concerning God are needed. All you need to do is equate "most supreme being" with God.Got it, now? There are living beings in existence, and one of them is the most supreme kind when compared to all others.Anyone with any inteligence should be able to see that, and without any bias to any particular religion.
Ahab Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) No, most people use the word God to refer to the creator of the universe.No, many people believe the most supreme kind of being in existence created the universe, but that's not the most basic understanding people equate with the word God... as seen by the fact that many people believe God did not create the universe and yet they still believe that kind of being is God.God is a word that is used to refer to the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, whether or not he/they/it created the universe.Atheists do not believe in such a thing, but this does not make them "mentally retarded" or less able to "think with logic and intelligence" than you can.So are you saying atheists don't believe there is a supreme kind of being which is the most supreme kind of being among all other beings? If they don't, they're not thinking logically, for whatever reason.Seriously, I still can't believe you actually said that.And yet I did. Is this another case where someone will not believe what is obvious? Edited January 16, 2013 by Ahab
thesometimesaint Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 You seem to keep side stepping my questions asking how you would know if something or someone was natural or supernatural. If we are the most supreme being, not just in a belief but as a matter of fact, then any experiment on us is an experiement on the most supreme being (or God) even if we're not as advanced as we can be. Even in our current state, as mortals, we are still the same kind of being God is, hence we are supernatural, as a matter of fact and not just a belief.Stop trying so hard to be a scientist and just think of it, man! Jesus bled and he was always the same kind of being as God.I can measure the natural. I have no way to measure the supernatural.We don't have to be as advanced as we can be, only as advanced as we are. Would I like to know more? Absolutely Yes. Do I know enough? Absolutely Not. Do I know enough to make a few halting conclusions about the natural world/universe? Yes.But I am a scientist. I was a scientist long before I became a member of the Church. I'm also a believing member of the Church. Can the left arm claim "I have no need of the right arm" and cut it off?Does a Resurrected being bleed? Does a Resurrected being need to eat? If a Resurrected being can not die, no matter what happens to it. He/she is definitely different than us mere mortals.
Ahab Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 I can measure the natural. I have no way to measure the supernatural.You don't even seem to have a way to know what the supernatural is, other than to say it is associated with God.In truth, right now, are we the same kind of being as God, or are we not?Don't just tell me what you believe. Tell me what is actually true, regardless of how you know it is true.We don't have to be as advanced as we can be, only as advanced as we are. Would I like to know more? Absolutely Yes. Do I know enough? Absolutely Not. Do I know enough to make a few halting conclusions about the natural world/universe? Yes.But I am a scientist. I was a scientist long before I became a member of the Church. I'm also a believing member of the Church. Can the left arm claim "I have no need of the right arm" and cut it off?If it's slowing you down or holding you back, heck yes, cut if off now. I don't think true scienctific research will require that much from you, though. You just need to use your mind to try to understand things while asking ANYONE for anything that will help you... even if the one you ask is another person who is the same kind of being you are.Does a Resurrected being bleed? Does a Resurrected being need to eat? If a Resurrected being can not die, no matter what happens to it. He/she is definitely different than us mere mortals.Different, yes, but not a different kind of being. Just more advanced than we are right now while we are still mortal.
thesometimesaint Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 Ahab:Ladies and gentlemen of the jury this man is guilty. I have no evidence to present of his guilt. So he must be guilty, and you Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury must be intellectually inferior not find him guilty.See how that works? 1
Ahab Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 Ahab:Ladies and gentlemen of the jury this man is guilty. I have no evidence to present of his guilt. So he must be guilty, and you Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury must be intellectually inferior not find him guilty.See how that works?Wow. I think it's amazing that you don't see something which to me is so obvious.There are living beings, and one is the most supreme kind out of all living beings, with the most supreme referred to as God.Maybe if you read that sentence over and over again something will finally click in your mind and you'll see what is obvious too.
Hestia Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Ahab is taking a break from this topic since he can't help insulting people who disagree with him.
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