Damien the Leper Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 Start inventing new verb tenses for eternity not just being an extension of time and then you can get a colossal headache and begin to see some possible explanations.Why go to all that trouble? Just read the books that Kerry Shirts got for Christmas.
Questing Beast Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) ...I agree with your last paragraph. Man does not need religion to communicate with God how ever they may perceive him. However, man does need a prophet to teach us of whom we worship and his ways, and to show us his work for us (Amos 3:7). Our perspectives and understanding of our personal experiences with God are made more clear through prophets. To worship God without a prophet is to blindly warm your hands by a fire, following it's warmth, yet having limited perspective of what it is and what it looks like, with no idea of how to actually see it and experience it in it's fullness and true glory. Even within religion, we all have different perspectives of God, but by following the prophets, our perspectives are made more clear and more perfect. You can thank the prophets for having even a concept of God. You can also thank the prophets for the concept of personally communicating with him. Because of them, your perspective has become that much more clear."I would that all men were prophets", words to that effect: Moses tried and failed to get all Israel to see/hear what Moses saw and heard. To refer to singular oracles as necessary in order to define the "correct" concept for "God" is contradictory to Moses' desire. If all are different and all are in direct communication with "God", then all are not holding the very same concept of "God": but rather, what "God" chooses to reveal individually and uniquely: which, being only a finite portion of the Infinite, cannot ever, no matter how long the seeker seeks, be even the beginning of comprehension of the Totality of God. Consider that space-time goes on forever; yet it remains moment by moment existence for all/us within it: yet "God" creates space-time and Exists outside of it, where all things are NOW; and finally, all things means all infinitely expanding worlds and multiverses; and all NOW to "God". There is no possible way, short of joining entirely with the whole mind of "God", that we can know "God" beyond what "God" reveals to our finite minds, ergo we never know even so much as a measurable beginning of what/who "God" Is. Yet "God" is intimate with us: "God" manifests as a Father or a Mother or a Lover, it seems, because that is how it has always been done.... Edited January 3, 2013 by Questing Beast
CV75 Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 "I would that all men were prophets", words to that effect: Moses tried and failed to get all Israel to see/hear what Moses saw and heard. To refer to singular oracles as necessary in order to define the "correct" concept for "God" is contradictory to Moses' desire. If all are different and all are in direct communication with "God", then all are not holding the very same concept of "God": but rather, what "God" chooses to reveal individually and uniquely: which, being only a finite portion of the Infinite, cannot ever, no matter how long the seeker seeks, be even the beginning of comprehension of the Totality of God. Consider that space-time goes on forever; yet it remains moment by moment existence for all/us within it: yet "God" creates space-time and Exists outside of it, where all things are NOW; and finally, all things means all infinitely expanding worlds and multiverses; and all NOW to "God". There is no possible way, short of joining entirely with the whole mind of "God", that we can know "God" beyond what "God" reveals to our finite minds, ergo we never know even so much as a measurable beginning of what/who "God" Is. Yet "God" is intimate with us: "God" manifests as a Father or a Mother or a Lover, it seems, because that is how it has always been done....God is not a chameleon. If all men were prophets, all would see Him as He is, sufficiently anyway to agree (D&C 93:19). 1
The Nehor Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 Why go to all that trouble? Just read the books that Kerry Shirts got for Christmas.Because then that knowledge would be limited to that elite snobbish group of arrogant jerks known only as "the literate". 1
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Because then that knowledge would be limited to that elite snobbish group of arrogant jerks known only as "the literate".Uh oh.The only problem with that is that it would exclude the recipient of that alleged "knowledge" if reading comprehension is a qualification. Edited January 3, 2013 by mfbukowski 2
pogi Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) "I would that all men were prophets", words to that effect: Moses tried and failed to get all Israel to see/hear what Moses saw and heard.Joseph Smith tried and failed in the same way with the Saints.To refer to singular oracles as necessary in order to define the "correct" concept for "God" is contradictory to Moses' desire.The purpose of a prophet is not to illuminate, reveal, or expose God in His fullness, but rather to teach us how to know God for ourselves as Moses and Joseph so strongly desired for us. They desired for us to know Him, not as we perceive Him, but as He is. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God..."(John 17:3). In order to know God as He is, one must follow His teachings, which are always given through the oracles of God, the prophets. If all are different and all are in direct communication with "God", then all are not holding the very same concept of "God": but rather, what "God" chooses to reveal individually and uniquely: which, being only a finite portion of the Infinite, cannot ever, no matter how long the seeker seeks, be even the beginning of comprehension of the Totality of God. Consider that space-time goes on forever; yet it remains moment by moment existence for all/us within it: yet "God" creates space-time and Exists outside of it, where all things are NOW; and finally, all things means all infinitely expanding worlds and multiverses; and all NOW to "God". There is no possible way, short of joining entirely with the whole mind of "God", that we can know "God" beyond what "God" reveals to our finite minds, ergo we never know even so much as a measurable beginning of what/who "God" Is. Yet "God" is intimate with us: "God" manifests as a Father or a Mother or a Lover, it seems, because that is how it has always been done....I like what you say here, and agree that we cannot know God in His fulness (in mortality). In order to do so, we would have to be like Him. In other words, we would have to be Gods in order to know God in His fulness. Anything less than a God would not be sufficient to know God as he is, to see as he sees, to know as he knows, and endowed with all of His divine attributes. One thing that you must understand is that what we see and what God manifests are not always the same thing. "Seeing, they see not". Prophets teach us how to see for ourselves, and what to look for. They only give us the very basic foundational principles which will keep us on a straight coarse, then they set us on our way to enlarge our understanding of God through personal direct communion and obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel. Edited January 3, 2013 by pogi
Questing Beast Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 God is not a chameleon. If all men were prophets, all would see Him as He is, sufficiently anyway to agree (D&C 93:19)."God" is Infinite, we are finite and always will be. When "God" manifests to each soul the resulting vision can't be anything less than unique. Where "God" is the same for everyone is in the knowing, not the "flavor" of that knowing. Why would an Infinite Being create duplication? That would be pointless and boring. So if the elders of Israel stood with Moses and saw "God", each one would see the same vision with physical eyes (probably), but with "spiritual eyes" that vision would be unique to each individual....
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 "God" is Infinite, we are finite and always will be.I do not intend to be finite forever. 2
Questing Beast Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) ...I like what you say here, and agree that we cannot know God in His fulness (in mortality). In order to do so, we would have to be like Him. In other words, we would have to be Gods in order to know God in His fulness. Anything less than a God would not be sufficient to know God as he is, to see as he sees, to know as he knows, and endowed with all of His divine attributes. One thing that you must understand is that what we see and what God manifests are not always the same thing. "Seeing, they see not". Prophets teach us how to see for ourselves, and what to look for. They only give us the very basic foundational principles which will keep us on a straight coarse, then they set us on our way to enlarge our understanding of God through personal direct communion and obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel.My growing concept of "God" (not the manifestation we call God the Father) does not allow me or anyone else, who remains a separate and sovereign soul, to ever know God In Total. As I said, to arrive at comprehension would require the mind to be effectively absorbed back into the total mind of "God"; which would effectively eliminate that individual. Much like the medieval millenarians asserted to have arrived at a state of innocence: they claimed to be thinking the very thoughts of God and refused to question anything that they thought, because that would mean that they in fact had not attained innocence: they used typology to illustrate this Oneness with God, such as each person being a drop of water, being taken back into the ocean which is God. But that hubris is a trap: not only because it doesn't ever happen (God created us as individuals to remain such), but because to assert HERE that it occurs then allows all manner of unjust thoughts to take physical form as actions.I agree that prophets/oracles can only lead and point the way to a beginning. The progress is up to us. And oracles/authorities never stand between us and God, although many religions assert that spiritual guides do just that.... Edited January 4, 2013 by Questing Beast
pogi Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 "God" is Infinite, we are finite and always will be. When "God" manifests to each soul the resulting vision can't be anything less than unique. Where "God" is the same for everyone is in the knowing, not the "flavor" of that knowing. Why would an Infinite Being create duplication? That would be pointless and boring. So if the elders of Israel stood with Moses and saw "God", each one would see the same vision with physical eyes (probably), but with "spiritual eyes" that vision would be unique to each individual....What you are saying is that God's is an inconsistent and variable being, and that he is not the same yesterday, today, and forever?
pogi Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 I agree that prophets/oracles can only lead and point the way to a beginning. The progress is up to us. And oracles/authorities never stand between us and God, although many religions assert that spiritual guides do just that....I hope you are not referring to Mormonism.
Questing Beast Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 I do not intend to be finite forever.Intentions are one thing, reality is another. Here we will often confuse them. You, all of us, cannot help being finite. We inhabit space-time and always will. "Satan is bound and time is no longer" does not mean that time ends; it only means that time on this world as a mortal world will have an end. But "time is measured to man" means we are creatures of moment by moment living and always will be; if we always remain "man" that is. God as a man condescended to be as we are, to make himself intimate to us. But that does not mean that "God" is within space-time, which "God" created. Only "God" is Infinite. We are finite yet immortal, which means that we live forever; that is not the same thing as being infinite beings. For while we exist inside the world as immortals, outside of it "God" continues to expand creation endlessly, which results in "God" expanding endlessly in expression: we cannot possibly ever know that total Being. This is a concept we can easily apprehend, but we will never comprehend "God In Total", only the manifestations to us that "God" uses to establish and maintain intimacy....
Questing Beast Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 What you are saying is that God's is an inconsistent and variable being, and that he is not the same yesterday, today, and forever?If you can imagine it, then it is a reality in some "venue": it is impossible to imagine something impossible. That is a paradox that only "God" knows the answers to. We have to accept on faith that this world is set up in a framework that does not change: that "God" is a truthful being and established for us the way to Joy. That way does not change and never will. It is our nature to seek Joy in all things. I have not thought of a greater purpose for existence. It is pointless to assume that because existence for other beings in other worlds might appear to fly into contradiction with our own world, that therefore "God" is a changeable being. Not so. Being Infinite all things about "God" are not only possible they are reality. A finite mind cannot imagine things that are impossible to "God"....
pogi Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 Intentions are one thing, reality is another. Here we will often confuse them. You, all of us, cannot help being finite. We inhabit space-time and always will. "Satan is bound and time is no longer" does not mean that time ends; it only means that time on this world as a mortal world will have an end. But "time is measured to man" means we are creatures of moment by moment living and always will be; if we always remain "man" that is. God as a man condescended to be as we are, to make himself intimate to us. But that does not mean that "God" is within space-time, which "God" created. Only "God" is Infinite. We are finite yet immortal, which means that we live forever; that is not the same thing as being infinite beings. For while we exist inside the world as immortals, outside of it "God" continues to expand creation endlessly, which results in "God" expanding endlessly in expression: we cannot possibly ever know that total Being. This is a concept we can easily apprehend, but we will never comprehend "God In Total", only the manifestations to us that "God" uses to establish and maintain intimacy....Sounds like a lot of philosophy based in man's reckoning to me, or are you prophesying? I see no basis for any of this in scripture.
Questing Beast Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 I hope you are not referring to Mormonism.Not officially. The religion is not set up to place intermediaries between us and God. But many people lack confidence in themselves and lean too much on spiritual guides; and being human those guides are tempted to assume an advisory and even commanding role that they do not possess. It's much better for the individual who comes to realize that "God" is always there and always has been and that nobody else is required to communicate with "God" and learn what is required to become joyful. Another fact that is important to realize is that we never stop praying. Our every breath is a prayer. I'm not sure how much that "God" reads minds; perhaps without open, knowing invitation for "God" to "come in" and do just that, reading someone's mind would amount to "God" violating free will, our own "space" if you will. So prayer is thought and action or lack thereof. We always pray. And when we realize that communication is a constant between each of us and "God" then we arrive at conscious awareness that "God" is everywhere. The retreating is only apparent and is always entirely on our side. "God" does not retreat or withdraw, but we can make ourselves feel distant by lying to ourselves....
Questing Beast Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) Sounds like a lot of philosophy based in man's reckoning to me, or are you prophesying? I see no basis for any of this in scripture.I don't know whether I am prophesying or not. It feels good, tastes good to me. I accept that as a finite being, as long as I choose to remain as such, I will never know the mind of "God" or comprehend the Infinity that "God" Is. When "God" Is God the Father, I can look a parent in the face and exchange smiles and pleasant times, forever: and that is probably all that "God In Total" will reveal what "God" Is to me. I am a man and "God as a man" is much as I am, otherwise there could be no appreciation on my part of an intimate relationship. What intrigues me more, however, is "God as a woman", a soul mate, for me, for the two of us, forever. As I said, I would worship "God" for being that for me.... Edited January 4, 2013 by Questing Beast
pogi Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 Not officially. The religion is not set up to place intermediaries between us and God. But many people lack confidence in themselves and lean too much on spiritual guides; and being human those guides are tempted to assume an advisory and even commanding role that they do not possess. It's much better for the individual who comes to realize that "God" is always there and always has been and that nobody else is required to communicate with "God" and learn what is required to become joyful. Another fact that is important to realize is that we never stop praying. Our every breath is a prayer. I'm not sure how much that "God" reads minds; perhaps without open, knowing invitation for "God" to "come in" and do just that, reading someone's mind would amount to "God" violating free will, our own "space" if you will. So prayer is thought and action or lack thereof. We always pray. And when we realize that communication is a constant between each of us and "God" then we arrive at conscious awareness that "God" is everywhere. The retreating is only apparent and is always entirely on our side. "God" does not retreat or withdraw, but we can make ourselves feel distant by lying to ourselves....LDS prophets have long warned of people believing without independent faith. As far as God not knowing our thoughts - For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrew 4:12)And in Psalms -Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising; Thou understandest my thought afar off.
pogi Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 I don't know whether I am prophesying or not. Then you are not.
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 Intentions are one thing, reality is another. Here we will often confuse them. You, all of us, cannot help being finite. We inhabit space-time and always will. "Satan is bound and time is no longer" does not mean that time ends; it only means that time on this world as a mortal world will have an end. But "time is measured to man" means we are creatures of moment by moment living and always will be; if we always remain "man" that is. God as a man condescended to be as we are, to make himself intimate to us. But that does not mean that "God" is within space-time, which "God" created. Only "God" is Infinite. We are finite yet immortal, which means that we live forever; that is not the same thing as being infinite beings. For while we exist inside the world as immortals, outside of it "God" continues to expand creation endlessly, which results in "God" expanding endlessly in expression: we cannot possibly ever know that total Being. This is a concept we can easily apprehend, but we will never comprehend "God In Total", only the manifestations to us that "God" uses to establish and maintain intimacy....If God can be outside space time then why could He not take someone else out as well?
Rob Osborn Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 If God can be outside space time then why could He not take someone else out as well?What exactly would it mean to be outside space time? 1
ERayR Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 What exactly would it mean to be outside space time?I think I ask the question earlier. What is on the other side?
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 What exactly would it mean to be outside space time?I will tell you when I get there.
Questing Beast Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 LDS prophets have long warned of people believing without independent faith.As far as God not knowing our thoughts - For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrew 4:12)And in Psalms -Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising; Thou understandest my thought afar off.I'm not asserting that God does not know our thoughts; only that "God" chooses not to in this venue. Without our invitation we remain solitary in our thoughts. This seems right though the concept is incomplete: "God In Total", outside of space-time, knows all things as NOW. So our every breath and thought is known, first to last if there ever is a last. But "God" INSIDE of space-time has condescended to be like us; and while possessing the power to read minds typically chooses not to. Why? Because to read minds would spoil the experience of our uniqueness? I don't know. Reading minds would violate free will? I think so. I don't know....
Questing Beast Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 If God can be outside space time then why could He not take someone else out as well?Yes, but what would that do to the person experiencing the totality of NOW, as "God" does? Wouldn't that change the mind of that person into the mind of "God"? It would effectively "absorb" that person's ID, individuality, back into the Cause of Existence....
CV75 Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 that vision would be unique to each individual....For the time being perhaps--that is the nature of experience--but when they are each finally and fully united in Christ, the great whole is enjoyed by all. D&C 88:46-61 speaks to this.While each man has his own time, order, season, kingdom, etc. (experieince/s), the same Christ blesses each one "that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified."
Recommended Posts