John 4:1-3

[inquiringmind]

I'm thinking about John 4:1-3 and wondering if these people (who appear to have been baptized during Christ's earthly ministry) would have needed to be re-baptized after the cross, or the resurrection, or Pentecost (the way I think some of the early latter day saints were re-baptized on and after April 6, 1830.)

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judea, and departed again into Galilee.

As I understand, John the baptist had the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood (?), and gave them to Jesus?

Did Jesus receive the keys to the Melchizedek Priesthood in His mortal life here, or after His resurrection (and when did He give them to Peter, James, and John--and does this have anything to do with whether or not these disciples would have had to be re-baptized)?

[Damien the Leper]

I don't think you'll find answers to these questions in the Bible. There are more LDS assertions that can only be dealt with through either LDS scripture or official teaching.

[janderich]

I'm thinking about John 4:1-3 and wondering if these people (who appear to have been baptized during Christ's earthly ministry) would have needed to be re-baptized after the cross, or the resurrection, or Pentecost (the way I think some of the early latter day saints were re-baptized on and after April 6, 1830.)

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judea, and departed again into Galilee.

As I understand, John the baptist had the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood (?), and gave them to Jesus?

Did Jesus receive the keys to the Melchizedek Priesthood in His mortal life here, or after His resurrection (and when did He give them to Peter, James, and John--and does this have anything to do with whether or not these disciples would have had to be re-baptized)?

The authority and power of the priesthood is centered in Christ. Did he not build worlds before being born on the earth? Is he not God's son? Why then this question about authority? If Adam recieve the priesthood from Christ in the Creation before the world was formed (see TPJS p 157) then Christ does not need to recieve it back from mortals in some chain of authority like the rest of us. Priesthood comes from him!

[Tacenda]

The authority and power of the priesthood is centered in Christ. Did he not build worlds before being born on the earth? Is he not God's son? Why then this question about authority? If Adam recieve the priesthood from Christ in the Creation before the world was formed (see TPJS p 157) then Christ does not need to recieve it back from mortals in some chain of authority like the rest of us. Priesthood comes from him!

Exactly he is the Priesthood!

[pogi]

janderich and Tacenda are right. The Melchizedek priesthood's original name was the Holy Priesthood after the order of the Son of God. He doesn't receive the priesthood from anybody, he gives it.

[longview]

janderich and Tacenda are right. The Melchizedek priesthood's original name was the Holy Priesthood after the order of the Son of God. He doesn't receive the priesthood from anybody, he gives it.

Jesus received the keys from His Father Elohim.

[inquiringmind]

But when did Peter, and James, and John receive it?

Were they baptizing disciples from the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry?

Were they baptized into the New Testament Church, or was this "baptism unto repentance" (like John's baptism)?

Would they have to be re-baptized (like some of those in the book of Acts, who "knew only John's baptism")?

[cdowis]

Jesus received the keys from His Father Elohim.

Heb 1:1-2

[inquiringmind]

Jesus received the keys from His Father Elohim.

I got that.

But when did Peter, and James, and John receive the keys?

Were they baptizing disciples from the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry?

Were they baptized into the New Testament Church, or was this "baptism unto repentance" (like John's baptism)?

Would they have to be re-baptized (like some of those in the book of Acts, who "knew only John's baptism")?

[savedbygrace]

Ther was only one Melchisadek, and we have only one high priest after his order, our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our high priest before God. He is God's complete revelation to man, through him alone do we come to the father.

Our Lord Jesus gave the keys to Peter who was to lead the church.

[pogi]

But when did Peter, and James, and John receive it?

Matt 16:19

Mark 3:14

Luke 9:1

John 15:16

[inquiringmind]

Matt. 16:19 says "I will (future tense) you the keys of the kingdom."

The other passages don't use the term, and in John 20:22 (after His resurrection) Christ breathed on them and said "receive ye The Holy Spirit.

Also, in Luke 24:49 (also after the Resurrection) He said "tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

And in Acts 1:4-5.

"Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

I believe the key of bestowing the gift of The Holy Spirit is held by the Melchizedek Priesthood (in LDS doctrine), and I'd like to know when Peter, James, and John received this priesthood (with it's keys), and whether those that were baptized by the disciples in the 4th chapter of John would have had to be re-baptized later.

[rongo]

Would they have to be re-baptized (like some of those in the book of Acts, who "knew only John's baptism")?

The reason that those who claimed to have received John's baptism were rebaptized was because if they really were, they would have heard about the reception of the Holy Ghost cf. John's clear teachings on this). The fact that they knew nothing about it showed that they were not baptized by John, so they were rebaptized and confirmed by proper authority.

[pogi]

Matt. 16:19 says "I will (future tense) you the keys of the kingdom."

The other passages don't use the term, and in John 20:22 (after His resurrection) Christ breathed on them and said "receive ye The Holy Spirit.

Also, in Luke 24:49 (also after the Resurrection) He said "tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

And in Acts 1:4-5.

"Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

I believe the key of bestowing the gift of The Holy Spirit is held by the Melchizedek Priesthood (in LDS doctrine), and I'd like to know when Peter, James, and John received this priesthood (with it's keys), and whether those that were baptized by the disciples in the 4th chapter of John would have had to be re-baptized later.

As you point out in Acts 1:4-5, it appears that they received the ability to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost a few days after that scripture. John 7:39 says that the Holy Ghost would not be given until Jesus was glorified.

Those disciples that were baptized in John 4, were baptized with water by the authority of the Aaronic priesthood, they would not need to be re-baptzed with water, but they still lacked the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, which appears to have happened later in Acts.

No body was re-baptised in the book of Acts, they simply received the second baptism. There are two baptisms, the baptism of John (water, by the authority of the Aaronic priesthood) and the baptism of Christ (Spirit, by the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood).

It appears that the authority/power of the Melchizedek priesthood had been given previously (power to heal the sick, cast out devils, etc.) in some of those scriptures I listed. But, it appears to be limited in its scope in that the Holy Ghost could not be given until Christ was glorified. Similarly in the restoration, though the priesthood had been restored, the fulness of it's potential use was not restored all at once. For example, many of the temple ordinances, endowments, and sealings were not received until later.

Edited December 31, 2012 by pogi

[inquiringmind]

It appears that the authority/power of the Melchizedek priesthood had been given previously (power to heal the sick, cast out devils, etc.) in some of those scriptures I listed. But, it appears to be limited in its scope in that the Holy Ghost could not be given until Christ was glorified. Similarly in the restoration, though the priesthood had been restored, the fulness of it's potential use was not restored all at once. For example, many of the temple ordinances, endowments, and sealings were not received until later.

Thank you.

Joseph Smith said the keys were given to Pater, James, and John by The Savior, Moses, and Elias on the mount of transfiguration (Discourse of summer of 1839, recorded in Willard Richard's "Pocket Companion"; WJS,9.)

As you point out in Acts 1:4-5, it appears that they received the ability to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost a few days after that scripture. John 7:39 says that the Holy Ghost would not be given until Jesus was glorified.

So would that mean that the disciples never had any testimony of The Holy Ghost until after resurrection Sunday?

Would that mean that when Jesus said that what Peter knew about who He was hadn't been revealed to him by flesh and blood, but had been revealed by The Father, that The Father Himself (and not The Holy Ghost) must have somehow literally communicated that to Peter?

Edited January 2, 2013 by inquiringmind

[CV75]

So would that mean that the disciples never had any testimony of The Holy Ghost until after resurrection Sunday?

Would that mean that when Jesus said that what Peter knew about who He was hadn't been revealed to him by flesh and blood, but had been revealed by The Father, that The Father Himself (and not The Holy Ghost) must have somehow literally communicated that to Peter?

There is a difference bewteen the power of the Holy Ghost and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. People can receive a testimony from the Holy Ghost before receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

[canard78]

Thank you.

Joseph Smith said the keys were given to Pater, James, and John by The Savior, Moses, and Elias on the mount of transfiguration (Discourse of summer of 1839, recorded in Willard Richard's "Pocket Companion"; WJS,9.)

So would that mean that the disciples never had any testimony of The Holy Ghost until after resurrection Sunday?

Would that mean that when Jesus said that what Peter knew about who He was hadn't been revealed to him by flesh and blood, but had been revealed by The Father, that The Father Himself (and not The Holy Ghost) must have somehow literally communicated that to Peter?

The process and sequence of receiving certain things doesn't always have to be the same throughout history.

Just because LDS claim a restoration (not reformation) they shouldn't presume that it's a structural/procedural mirror from 2,000 years ago.

Baptism didn't necessarily signify becoming a member of the church in the Old world. It didn't even mean that when JS and Cowdery were baptised (there wasn't a church to be baptised into).

Equally, there's no eternal rule that one must have the gift of the Holy Ghost before the Melch P'hood. But today there's a procedure in the church that makes it happen in this way.