Women And The Priesthood

[Saints Alive]

And women perform priesthood ordinances in the temple.

CFR that women perform "priesthood" ordinances in the temple and not temple ordinances.

[Calm]

"Explain that ordinances performed by the power of the priesthood are essential to our exaltation. It is through these ordinances that we receive the power of God in our lives....

What is necessary in order for the power of godliness to be manifest in our lives? (The ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood. The “greater priesthood” mentioned in these verses is the Melchizedek Priesthood.)"

http://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual/lesson-4-receiving-temple-ordinances-and-covenants?lang=eng

[TAO]

Recently a friend of my wife has been posting comments about women in the church, some of which concern the priesthood. She feels the church treats women unequally. She made the comment that that "giving the priesthood to only half of the population is a sexist God indeed." This person also claims to not be a member anymore, and will be participating in a "women wearing pants to church day." I find it funny that the reason she comes to church is to protest it, but a part of me is glad that she is just showing up.

I don't think it has anything to do with sexism. I believe men and women have different roles within the kingdom of God, one being no less important and necessary than the other, or at least we shouldn't hold one in higher regard than the other.

So, what are your thoughts on women receiving the priesthood? Was there a time when women have held the priesthood (the scriptures speak of prophetesses and priestesses)? Will they have priestly authority at some future time?

Any literature or thoughts on this would be appreciated.

My thoughts are that I'm going to wait for God to say something to change anything.

[TAO]

CFR that women perform "priesthood" ordinances in the temple and not temple ordinances.

Saints, there are more than two types of priesthood.

[Storm Rider]

There are definitely people who leave the church over this issue. However, there are also plenty who see the inequity but want to stay. For many, the fact that women can't hold the priesthood is just another symptom (perhaps the most visible) in a long list of symptoms highlighting gender inequity in the church.

I love it when we create words to provide a reality for our allegations. "Gender inequity" is one of those terms that on its face is meaningless in the world of science. Things are the way they are, but we like to take them and then create positions of discontent. What I think is reality is that faith is not for whiners, complainers, and n'er do wells. Faith is a trial, it is a test, it demands work, and it demands commitment. Those who have faith have obtained and they have cultivated it through continued, consistent effort. The beauty is that even the weakest among us grows strong by having faith and the strongest among us is reduced to complete weakness without faith. It does not matter what the issue is that causes people to lose faith or to leave the Church of Jesus Christ; the reasons are unending and as varied as there are individuals. If someone wants to leave the Church because they are female or male or because the Relief Society president did not speak kindly to you, or that the no one noticed your new clothes, or you learned that Joseph Smith married more than one woman, or that Jesus Christ came to earth and only taught the Jews, then they will leave the Church. What is evident is that people leave and people return. Salvation is between the individual and God and each gets to choose what they will do. However, there will be a day when the Bridegroom comes and he will call to each of his brides. Some will have oil in their lamps and some will not. No amount of begging for oil in that day will return oil to one's lamp. The day for storing up oil is past. You get to choose.

[Calm]

Things that make y5ou go HMMM.

http://www.democrati...com/10021839892

By the way, I can practically guarantee that if they changed the grape monkey's task to something sufficiently harder than the cucumber monkey's task, that the cucumber monkey would still have an issue. He is not upset because he is not getting equal pay for equal work, he is just upset he is not getting the good stuff and whatever the tasks it would be the same, even if he had to do no task at all to get his cucumber while the other got a grape for an hour's worth of hard labour.

If the monkey is insightful enough to actually figure out the concept "equal pay for equal work", that would be astonishing. Simply wanting what the other guy gets is not all that surprising.

[CV75]

While I would like to agree with you, do you have something more than just your opinion and own interpretation of the temple to support this claim?

Yes-- many General Conference talks speak to this promise that women and men are equal in their eternal blessings before the Lord.

[Hestia]

It seems we need another reminder of board rules which include NO

• Personal attacks. You may dispute a member's opinion, but you may not label them for having that opinion.
  
• Psychoanalyzing others
  
• Attempting to provoke people
  

[Calm]

Yes-- many General Conference talks speak to this promise that women and men are equal in their eternal blessings before the Lord.

I meant specifically this claim: "This endowment is the power referred to in the Ensign article cited"

I am not debating equality.

Edited December 16, 2012 by calmoriah

[rongo]

Are Boys More Important Than Girls?

From Orson Scott Card's "Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary" (a hilarious and insightful book):

]youth, the Mormon teenagers—the hope of the future. To prepare them for the great responsibilities that lie ahead of them, the girls are trained to be competent wives and mothers and the boys are trained to play basketball and tie knots.

I would say that from a standpoint of actual preparation value, the young women have a much more rigorous and "meaty" regimen than the young men via "Scouting" and even Duty to God.

[CV75]

I meant specifically this claim: "This endowment is the power referred to in the Ensign article cited"

I am not debating equality.

I am not debating equality either, becuse equality is inherent in the highest order of priesthood.

Regarding the article you cited:

“If we live for it, ours can be a power given us from our Heavenly Father that will bring peace to a troubled household. Ours can be a power that will bless and comfort little children, that will bring sleep to tearstained eyes in the wee hours of the morning. Ours can be the power that will bring happiness to a familyhome evening, the power to calm the unsettled nerves of a tired wife. Ours can be the power that will give direction to a confused and vulnerable teenager. Ours, the power to bless a daughter before she goes on her first date or before her temple marriage, or to bless a son before his departure for a mission or college. Ours, my young brethren, can be the power to stop evil thoughts of a group of boys gathered together in vulgar conversation. Ours can be the power to heal the sick and comfort the lonely. These are some of the important purposes of the priesthood” (H. Burke Peterson, in Conference Report, Apr. 1976, 50–51; or Ensign, May 1976, 33).

I take talks like these to be likened unto ourselves, just as the scriptures. Despite the immediate audience, a woman can do the same things the speaker is exhorting the men to do. Elsewhere he says, “Spiritual growth, and the happiness resulting therefrom, is based on an understanding of and obedience to priesthood principles.” From there, the whole talk can be rewritten to an audience of sisters with very little changes. I think a woman endowed in the temple can see how the temple endowment gives her power to bring peace, to bless, comfort, and console, to bring happiness and calmness, to stop evil thoughts, to heal, etc. both in this life and the next.

Mortal priesthood office is not the same as the highest order of priesthood that men and women share jointly. Specific to the power women have in relation to the priesthood, messages in talks and lesson materials such as these support the points I was making:

http://www.lds.org/topics/women-in-the-church?lang=eng

Talk touching on the applicability of Abraham 1:2 to women and men (from 1975:

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/06/the-example-of-abraham?lang=eng

Talks touching on divine power held by women:

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2009/09/the-influence-of-righteous-women?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2002/12/women-of-righteousness?lang=eng

A lesson about Women and the Priesthood:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=8b817befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=88021b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

[Calm]

I am not sure whether she can read the thread or not, but even if she can't I believe I should clarify a few things.

As was said in another recent conference address, calmoriah, there are no hidden easter eggs in the Gospel. If your position was correct, it would have been stated by General Authorities and stated often. If a position requires obscure quotes and unusual interpretations (and your interpretations of the verses you have quoted are definately unusual) and cannot be backed up by recent general authoriites in an official capacity, then it is best placed in the mysteries box and thought of no more till the next life.

The Joseph Smith quote I refer to is not an obscure quote. It is in the current and the previous Gospel Principles manuals. See here: http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

So, which is more likely, that you have stumbled across something something hidden, and that women cannot have exaltation with the priesthood, or that you are simply incorrect?

I have no clue how you got this from what I posted. I didn't even offer an interpretation, but simply offered the JS quote and others. My only comments were introductory phrases in that post. If this is something to do with what you think my interpretation is, you have completely misinterpreted my comments. You keep referring to nonexistent interpretations. It would seem they are creations of your imagination, not mine.

We women currently have everything we need to acheive our eternal exaltation.

Women do in fact currently have all the tools needed to earn exaltation

Again in response to your statement above, I give the JS quote below in my signature that has been referenced in the GP manual for decades---that what we currently have does not complete the process of receiving exaltation, the learning of the principles of exaltation continue in the next life. In no way did I specify what of the principles of exaltation we are currently missing that will be provided for us in the next life. You need to stop jumping to conclusions.

Edited December 16, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I know this is somewhat off topic, but it is a favourite topic of mine so I will add a few quotes:

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

Earth life, a necessary part of eternal progression, is the proving ground for the exalted-to-be, a state in which we are undergoing a period of testing and proving to see if we will do the Lord’s will. (See Abr. 3:22–26.) A modern revelation speaks of those who are valiant in the service of the Lord during this testing period:

“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.” (D&C 132:20.)

What is necessary to receive this inestimable blessing? The Prophet Joseph said that one must begin at the beginning with the first principles of the gospel:

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Teachings, p. 348.)

Although the process of obtaining exaltation continues even into the spirit world, the knowledge that one will become exalted with the privileges of continuing on to eternal life can be certain in this life. This is what making one’s calling and election sure is all about.

The "obscure" quote is also referenced here in another conference talk: https://www.lds.org/...nother?lang=eng

and is referenced here in another manual, an Institute one I believe: http://www.lds.org/m...-faith?lang=eng

and another Institute manual quotes it twice: http://www.lds.org/m...erfect?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/m...-of-me?lang=eng

and another such manual again twice: http://www.lds.org/m...dition?lang=eng http://www.lds.org/m...h-life?lang=eng

The New Era: http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

The Liahona: http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

Another Ensign: http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

And in a Ensign reprinting of the King Follett sermon from which the quote is: https://www.lds.org/...sermon?lang=eng

I will give the quote with rest of the sentence following it as it makes the point even stronger:

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.

Edited December 16, 2012 by calmoriah

[yootaw]

I love it when we create words to provide a reality for our allegations. "Gender inequity" is one of those terms that on its face is meaningless in the world of science. Things are the way they are, but we like to take them and then create positions of discontent. What I think is reality is that faith is not for whiners, complainers, and n'er do wells. Faith is a trial, it is a test, it demands work, and it demands commitment. Those who have faith have obtained and they have cultivated it through continued, consistent effort. The beauty is that even the weakest among us grows strong by having faith and the strongest among us is reduced to complete weakness without faith. It does not matter what the issue is that causes people to lose faith or to leave the Church of Jesus Christ; the reasons are unending and as varied as there are individuals. If someone wants to leave the Church because they are female or male or because the Relief Society president did not speak kindly to you, or that the no one noticed your new clothes, or you learned that Joseph Smith married more than one woman, or that Jesus Christ came to earth and only taught the Jews, then they will leave the Church. What is evident is that people leave and people return. Salvation is between the individual and God and each gets to choose what they will do. However, there will be a day when the Bridegroom comes and he will call to each of his brides. Some will have oil in their lamps and some will not. No amount of begging for oil in that day will return oil to one's lamp. The day for storing up oil is past. You get to choose.

I confess that your post has me completely baffled. Gender inequity (in scare quotes even!) is not a made up term, nor is it meaningless. You seem to be implying that if the term is made up, then no one can really have experienced gender inequity. Is that what you are trying to say?

[Calm]

Gender inequity (in scare quotes even!) is not a made up term

Well, really all terms/words are made up...at least at their beginning.

I think he means it should be a nonissue (and thus is a "madeup issue") because inequities are a fact of life and were meant to exist in order to create an environment to test and prepare us to receive the Lord.

Edited December 16, 2012 by calmoriah

[yootaw]

Well, really all terms/words are made up...at least at their beginning.

I think he means it should be a nonissue (and thus is a "madeup issue") because inequities are a fact of life and were meant to exist in order to create an environment to test and prepare us to receive the Lord.

I think you are exactly right, and it clearly is a non-issue for him. What I am trying to communicate is that describing something as a made up issue makes it easy for us to ignore evidences that would help us understand the issue. Or, at a very minimum, help us empathize with those who feel that they have experienced, or are experiencing, inequity. These inequities may be an unchangeable fact of life. Or, they may be cultural artifacts from an earlier age. However, saying that they don't exist -- that the problem is a made up issue -- does nothing to promote understanding and dialogue.

[yootaw]

When we were first married, I complained to my wife that my fathers generation had it so much better than mine. They were expected to be the bread winner, but were really the king of the castle when they got home. Magazine articles were devoted to how a woman should prepare to receive her husband from work -- fresh makeup, drink in hand, kids already fed and on the way to bed. Her response really stuck with me. She acknowledged that this would be easier for the guy in some ways, but that the guys back then really missed out on the benefits of an equal relationship -- principally having an emotionally fulfilling relationship. So, we've really worked towards having an equitable relationship, and I think that we do pretty well. This isn't to say that some of our responsibilities aren't divided on traditional gender lines, but not without thought and discussion. In the end, I think that my DW was correct -- we do have a fuller, more satisfying relationship because we strive for equality I asked my kids recently who was the boss in our home. Their response was gratifying -- mom and dad are the boss in our home.

I think that the church culture is moving towards equality between the genders, and I applaud the progress that has been made. I think that that continuing in this direction will bring significant advantages.

[yootaw]

My wife wanted to be a Seminary teacher. And she would have been a great seminary teacher! But, she was told that the chances of her being hired as a seminary teacher were extremely remote, because she was female. She now holds out hope of living somewhere where she can be called as an early morning seminary instructor.

[Calm]

However, saying that they don't exist -- that the problem is a made up issue

Nonexistence is different than nonimportance or irrelevancy....just to be precise.

[Calm]

My wife wanted to be a Seminary teacher. And she would have been a great seminary teacher! But, she was told that the chances of her being hired as a seminary teacher were extremely remote, because she was female. She now holds out hope of living somewhere where she can be called as an early morning seminary instructor.

If things keep going as they are, there is a great possibility in my view that all CES teachers will go to a volunteer route.

[Calm]

She acknowledged that this would be easier for the guy in some ways, but that the guys back then really missed out on the benefits of an equal relationship -- principally having an emotionally fulfilling relationship.

I totally agree with her. My parents' relationship is suffering right now precisely for that reason, they are older now so all the negative stuff is getting concentrated and their ability to cope with it diminishing. My dad is a great guy, very generous at heart and in most ways was way ahead of his time for the treatment and regard of women...except when it came to himself and his own relationship with his family. His mother and grandmother, saints that they were, taught him that the world revolved around him and it is an attitude he just can't get past that blinds him as well to the fact that while he is very good at getting his own needs met, this is not because he himself is good at it, but because my mom and pretty much anyone else (males as well, but at least he intellectually is aware of their 'territory' and keeps out of that) around him interrupts what they are doing as soon as he states he needs something...and he is clueless he is doing this to them no matter how many times we tell him. It is a habit that is so natural to him that he tells all of us that if we were just as committed to our efforts we would be able to reach our goals...even while he is structuring family so that it is impossible to actually do that because he has preempted our time or the resources for his own stuff.

OTOH, men of my generation are much more aware of the dynamics of relationships and the need for give and take, though there is still, imo, generally a reluctance to initiate that give and take and instead most men I have known and been told about wait to be told by their wives what that give and take needs to be and then they do the part that they accept as practical and ignore much of the rest....which throws an inequity into the relationship unfortunately****. I am hoping my son's generation avoids that. Looking at my granddaughter who is four, I highly doubt she will put up with that shifting of responsibility so men better have it straightened out by the time she comes of age or else there will be some interesting fireworks.

****There are exceptions, perhaps many, many of them and it may just be that I have run into that particular type or my own behaviour encourages that behaviour somehow or I hang out with women that do the same. I would love to be proved wrong.

Edited December 16, 2012 by calmoriah

[bluebell]

My wife wanted to be a Seminary teacher. And she would have been a great seminary teacher! But, she was told that the chances of her being hired as a seminary teacher were extremely remote, because she was female. She now holds out hope of living somewhere where she can be called as an early morning seminary instructor.

Why can't she be a seminary teacher? I've known about 12 female seminary teachers so far in my life.

[LDSGuy]

Don't women make the same covenants concerning the priesthood as the men in the temple?

[yootaw]

Why can't she be a seminary teacher? I've known about 12 female seminary teachers so far in my life.

I think that she was told at the time that teaching positions were extremely limited and that strong preference was given to men in filling those positions. She was made aware that women are occasionally hired, but only with the understanding that they can work up to the point that they have their first child. She felt that what they were really saying to her was that this was not a real option for her.

[yootaw]

Nonexistence is different than nonimportance or irrelevancy....just to be precise.

Agreed.