Women And The Priesthood

[Erin15]

So it doesn't matter what God's Will actually is? It doesn't matter enough that we should be seeking to find out what his Will actually is, we should just go out and make do with the commandments and knowledge that he has given us now without any attempt to find out what he desires us to also have and do?

God's will is that we sustain His prophet and Apostels. He placed them here for our benefit. Instead of trying to second-guess them, we should follow them.

The church has to earn revelation, and in the meantime, we're just acting based on our (hopefully) best human knowledge.

We earn greater light and knowledge in a very specific way. We earn it by sustaining the prophet and apostles The Lord has placed on earth to guide us. We earn it by patiently submitting to His will and His timetable. We earn it by obeying the commandments we already have.

Vigorous academic debate, placing pressure on the bretheren to change things to our tastes, polluting The Gospel with the philosophies of men, protesting elements of the church we do not personally care for. Those are just a few examples of how the church does NOT earn further revelation.

[Calm]

I have never felt that this was possible. Otherwise I would do it constantly (as a single mother). I know there is some scriptural foundation for it, but is there foundation for it in the policies and counsel of the church currently?

I am going to have to look for it....and my husband took back the Volume 1 of the CHI and it may be in there.

One of these days I am going to have set up a database for all the references I find because it is annoying when I've done the work once only to have to do it again. May take some time, getting the house appraised tomorrow and want it at least tidy and everything takes twice as long on a bum ankle.

[treeface]

Does anyone else think it's interesting that men cannot be saved without being ordained to the priesthood, yet a woman can be?

Yes!

It is almost saying as if there is something inherently missing, or inferior in men, that is not in women.

Yes, that's what it's saying me me!

I don't know that it is saying that men are inferior (but i can understand such an interpretation), but it does seem to imply that there is something that is gained by men having the priesthood, that they need, which women have naturally.

Yes, there must be something magnificent that women have naturally. Think of all the things in the temple that are the such-and-such of the holy Priesthood, and wouldn't it be strange if fully half of those participating have zero priesthood or priestesshood? It would be out of place for a Deacon to set up and take down the sacrament, and yet look at how fully women participate in the ordinances of the endowment ceremony!

I've heard it said that women who are married in the temple share in their husband's priesthood. Okay fine, now what about all the single women who participate in the temple ceremony just as fully? No distinction is made between a single woman's participation and a married woman's participation, so apparently the single women have just as much of "it", naturally, whatever "it" is.

Edited December 20, 2012 by treeface

[Calm]

I would say that the patriarchal order is the opposite of patriarchy. They are not the same thing at all, as I understand them. Patriarchy is an invention of the Adversary and/or the world. The patriarchal order was ordained by God.

But sometimes people confuse the two, so it is better imo to define the particular issue being focused on rather than just condemn something generically as "patriarchy" because it just might be of the "patriarchal order" of things.

[Calm]

God's will is that we sustain His prophet and Apostels. He placed them here for our benefit. Instead of trying to second-guess them, we should follow them.

And they have counseled us to seek out the Lord in all things, have they not? If not, please point me where they say we should stop praying, pondering and seeking in favour of solely serving others.

Personally I would be cautious about insisting that prophets have told us to get out there and serve whlie neglecting to seek the Lord's Will on all things. Sounds like false doctrine to me.

We earn greater light and knowledge in a very specific way. We earn it by sustaining the prophet and apostles The Lord has placed on earth to guide us. We earn it by patiently submitting to His will and His timetable. We earn it by obeying the commandments we already have.

And how can we know what his Will is in all things if we don't ask him? Why would he bother to give us further light and knowledge if we don't ask him for it. Abraham gave us the ideal pattern for seeking out further light and knowledge when he went to the Lord in obedience and asked for it.

Abr 1:2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

Service and obedience is only one part of the equation for receiving further light and knowledge. We are obedient if we seek. Ask and it shall be given you, knock and it shall be opened. God doesn't open if we don't knock first. Edited December 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[Erin15]

Personally I would be cautious about insisting that prophets have told us to get out there and serve whlie neglecting to seek the Lord's Will on all things. Sounds like false doctrine to me.

Okay, then. Did you ask God about whether or not women should have the priesthood at this time? What did he say to you?

Edited December 20, 2012 by Erin15

[Saints Alive]

I don't see how you can make a difference. An ordinance is an ordinance, and is a manifestation of the priesthood. How can there be a non-priesthood ordinance?

who say all ordinances are manifestation of priesthood?

[Calm]

Okay, then. Did you ask God about whether or not women should have the priesthood at this time? What did he say to you?

Since I am not the prophet, I feel no imperative to offer up my spiritual experiences on demand. For someone to request that I do so smacks rather of a lack of respect for the spiritual communication between God and his children.

[treeface]

Calmoriah, your quotation from Matthew (post #148 above) about the woman who anointed Jesus beforehand for his burial is one of the most interesting stories in the gospels. Apparently Jesus though it was important enough to stipulate that "Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her." Yet somehow her story gets swept under the rug by every gospel I've ever heard pulpit-preached, even though it is found (with minor variations) in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So maybe the gospel Jesus is referring to is something you find by looking under the rug.

For instance if we look under the rug in John 12:3, we find out what her name is. I'm sure you already know it, but it might be interesting to others to look it up and see.

Anyway thank you for telling her story here, for a memorial of her. I think she belongs in this thread.

Since I am not the prophet, I feel no imperative to offer up my spiritual experiences on demand.

Well said, sister.

Edited December 20, 2012 by treeface

[halconero]

who say all ordinances are manifestation of priesthood?

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 84)

This?

[Erin15]

Since I am not the prophet, I feel no imperative to offer up my spiritual experiences on demand.

Except you already did earlier in the thread:

I do not think that Thomas S. Monson and the apostles should ever lift the ban on women having the Priesthood

I don't think they need to go formally to the Lord and ask him about it unless they feel so inspired to do so.

Personally if a revelation ever comes, I believe it will be in the Millennium

If you had been paying attention to past conversations on this same subject you would see that my position has always been consistent.

When your posting style radically shifted I suspected that you were just flippantly deflecting rather than sincerely discussing the subject.

For someone to request that I do so smacks rather of a lack of respect for the spiritual communication between God and his children.

Now my suspicions are confirmed.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Erin15

[Calm]

Except you already did earlier in the thread:

No, I did not.

My posting style has always been the same since I started posting back in 2001 as I am sure a multitude of posters here can attest to. If you think it has shifted, let alone radically shifted, you are attempting to read way too much into what I am writing.

I am not the one not discussing the issue, I am not the one dismissing people's sincere concerns by telling them to just stop thinking about and discussing the topic and just go out and find someone to help.....while ignoring others in spiritual need or the counsel of Christ to seek him out first and foremost.

Edited December 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[Erin15]

I am not the one dismissing people's sincere concerns by telling them to just stop thinking about and discussing the topic and just go out and find someone to help

It has been my experience that the best solution to a crisis of faith is not to talk about it, debate it, discuss it, or dissect it. The best thing a person with a crisis of faith can do is go out there and live The Gospel and help other people and experience it for themselves.

That is where the most powerful spiritual experiences come from, that is where strong faith comes from.

My suggestions were intentionally designed to help them, rather than waste their time talking though a problem that, by its very nature, is almost impossible to resolve by talking through it.

I'm not dismissing thier concerns, I'm giving them the best possible medication for it.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Erin15

[Calm]

I'm not dismissing thier concerns, I'm giving them the best possible medication for it.

Telling someone you know better than them what they need is dismissing their concerns. It is also treating them as a child.

I have found that letting a person see that you understand their difficulties allows them to move on to the next step of doing something to solve them.

I have never found an adult that was happy with a solution that was forced on to them by someone else, especially someone that couldn't even be bothered to discuss the person's difficulties in the first place.

Edited December 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

The best thing a person with a crisis of faith can do is go out there and live The Gospel and help other people and experience it for themselves.

That is where the most powerful spiritual experiences come from, that is where strong faith comes from.

You ignored it the first time around, so I'll post it again:

Luke 10:38 ¶Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.

39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word.

40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Where is the wrong in seeking the Word of the Lord? Edited December 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I would like to say that I am eternally grateful that Joseph Smith and others were of the inclination to seek what was God's Will for them in regards to further light and knowledge rather than simply letting themselves be solely concerned with commandments he had already given to them.

The Marthas of the world have their blessings for the beautiful and meaningful service that they give, but the Marys of the world, who seek out the Lord himself and not just those he would have us serve, get to sit at the feet of the Lord, no greater blessing can they receive in this world at least.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/10?lang=eng#

I tend to be a Martha more than a Mary.

[Erin15]

You ignored it the first time around, so I'll post it again:

I ignored it because it is so obviously misapplied that I felt it didn't require refutation, but I suppose if you are going to press the matter I must oblidge.

The difference between mary and martha was that martha was primarily concerned with worldly matters like cleaning and the preparation of food, while mary's focus was on listening to The Savior and his teachings.

Your first and most glaring mistake is to assume that caring for others is a worldly matter. It is not. In fact, it is a deeply spiritual matter that sits at the very core of our discipleship and will sit at the very core of our final judgement and qualification for exaltation.

³¹ “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. ³² All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

³⁴ “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ³⁵ For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, ³⁶ I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

³⁷ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸ When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ³⁹ When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

⁴⁰ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

⁴¹ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ⁴² For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, ⁴³ I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

⁴⁴ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

⁴⁵ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

⁴⁶ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Your second mistake is to underemphasize the role of action in the faith process. You indicate that between a woman learning and a woman doing, the woman learning is more blessed, when in reality the opposite is true. The woman doing is putting her knowledge into action, which is the reason The Lord teaches us in the first place.

Study and prayer are essential components in our spiritual lives, but ultimately it is only when we put what we have read and learned into action that faith unto salvation is generated. Study, prayer, and action are all essential, but action is by far the weightier of the three.

"If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

John 7:17

"But don't just listen to God's word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves."

James 1:22

"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter."

Matthew 7:21

Your third mistake is to assume that petitioning The Lord automatically puts one in the same category as Mary.

This is a gross mistake.

Like many things in the Gospel, context, intent, and desire are critical components that make the difference between a good and wholesome act, and a sinful one.

When Joseph Smith lost the 116 pages, for example, he was petitioning The Lord, but he did it in the wrong way, didn't he? He already had The Lord's answer, The Lord had told him not to lend out the pages, but Joseph kept asking, because he was not getting the answer he wanted, or because he sought to obtain the outcome he desired, or because he was trying to change The Lord's mind.

His petition was improper, and he was sorely chastized for it, and it was a very powerful learning experience for him.

Cain is another example, whose sacrifice was rejected of The Lord not only because his heart was not in the right place, but also because he had offered the wrong thing in the wrong way, first fruits of the soil instead of firstlings of the flock.

So, since petitioning The Lord is not automatically appropriate and wholesome, what would be the guidelines in this particular case?

I would outline the following examples as a guide:

If you are petitioning to understand why The Lord has not instructed His prophet and apostels to give women the priesthood, then that petition would be appropriate, because you are seeking to understand His will.

If you are petitioning The Lord to change His church because you want it to change, then that would be an example of an inappropriate petition, because you are seeking your will and not His.

If you are petitioning The Lord to bless His church with further light and blessings, in His own time and in His own way, that would be an appropriate petition, because you are submitting to His plan.

If you are petitioning The Lord to bless His church with further light and knowledge in the way you expect Him to, then that would be an example of an inappropriate petition, because you are seeking your will and not His.

Your fourth mistake is to assume that knowledge and understanding are always a benefit to us. In reality, knowledge and understanding can condemn us if they are not paired with sufficient levels of obedience.

The more light and knowledge we have the more accountable we are for our behavior. This is why The Lord admonishes us to seek out light and knowledge in a very specific way. We earn it by sustaining the prophet and apostles The Lord has placed on earth to guide us. We earn it by patiently submitting to His will and His timetable. We earn it by obeying the commandments we already have.

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"

James 2:19

What James is pointing out here is that while the demons may have the knowledge and understanding that God exists and that Jesus is the Christ, that knowledge does not change their nature, does not redeem them, does not absolve them, does not benefit them. In fact it only serves to condem them.

The Prophet Nephi was very direct on this subject:

"O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But, to be learned is good if they harken unto the counsels of God."

This brings us back to the point I made earlier, that if you want to recieve knowledge of The Lord, go out there and serve His children. The more you do, the more your faith will grow, your heart will expand, your mind will be enlightened, and you will merit a greater portion of knowledge and understanding, which will be of great benefit to you because you will be spiritually matured enough to handle it.

You rejected that point, but as I have shown, it is true, scriptural, and reasonable.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Erin15

[bluebell]

I ignored it because it is so obviously misapplied that I felt it didn't require refutation, but I suppose if you are going to press the matter I must oblidge.

The difference between mary and martha was that martha was primarily concerned with worldly matters like cleaning and the preparation of food, while mary's focus was on listening to The Savior and his teachings.

Martha was not primarily concerned with worldly matters, she was concerned with serving the Savior and others who were at her home (unless you really want to argue that cleaning and food preparation is not a form of service, and if so, then someone should let all those people who work at food banks and shelters know how 'worldly' they are being).

Martha's focus was on physically serving others and Mary's was on spiritually feeding herself. The Savior was clear that the one which appeared selfish at first glance (spiritually feeding yourself while ignoring the physical needs of others for a time) was in fact, the better choice.

Your first and most glaring mistake is to assume that caring for others is a worldly matter.

You've got to stop putting words in people's mouths just to make it easier to deal with their arguments. It does not serve you and makes you look petty. Cal never claimed that and never would.

Your second mistake is to underemphasize the role of action in the faith process. You indicate that between a woman learning and a woman doing, the woman learning is more blessed, when in reality the opposite is true. The woman doing is putting her knowledge into action, which is the reason The Lord teaches us in the first place.

In the context of the Mary and Martha story, Cal's interpretation is correct and your's contradicst what the Savior taught. The Savior blessed Mary for learning and loving chastized Martha for doing.

Study and prayer are essential components in our spiritual lives, but ultimately it is only when we put what we have read and learned into action that faith unto salvation is generated. Study, prayer, and action are all essential, but action is by far the weightier of the three.

No one is arguing any differently, except where you keep contradicting the Savior's teaching that action is the most important of the three.

"If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

John 7:17

"But don't just listen to God's word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves."

James 1:22

"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter."

Matthew 7:21

But you do have to study and pray first, to know God's will, which the scriptures clearly imply. There is absolutely no support in these verses for the idea that action is the most important part because action without the knowledge first, would be worthless.

Like many things in the Gospel, context, intent, and desire are critical components that make the difference between a good and wholesome act, and a sinful one.

Obviously. If you think that anyone is arguing against this, then you are confused about the topic of the conversation.

This brings us back to the point I made earlier, that if you want to recieve knowledge of The Lord, go out there and serve His children. The more you do, the more your faith will grow, your heart will expand, your mind will be enlightened, and you will merit a greater portion of knowledge and understanding, which will be of great benefit to you because you will be spiritually matured enough to handle it.

You rejected that point, but as I have shown, it is true, scriptural, and reasonable.

Again, the Savior's teachings on the subject contradict yours. The scriptures seem clear-if you want to receive knowledge, seek after it first, then go out and put what you have learned to use.

I believe that you have actually helped to make Cal's point.

[bluebell]

I'm not dismissing thier concerns, I'm giving them the best possible medication for it.

And then letting everyone know who would/does disagree with your 'medication' that they need to repent.

It's one thing to have opinions on the subject. We all do and most of them are very strong, but anytime we set ourselves up as the standard for how others must behave and believe or they are sinning, we've got problems much bigger than they do.

[Calm]

I believe that you have actually helped to make Cal's point.

I do too. And thank you for doing all that work for me in demonstrating it. I believe you did it much better than I would have this morning.

This verse jumped out at me in conjunction with something that Erin15 had written earlier:

"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter."

Matthew 7:21

In a response that dealt with the importance of finding out what God's Will was, Erin15 responded:

I'm saying that it really doesn't matter one way or another.

As you said above, one has to find out what God's Will is first before one can do it and one shouldn't assume that what he wanted you to do yesterday is identical to what he wanted you to do today so one should be on one's knees daily to find out....if one time, one size fits all was the way he wanted people to operate the Restoration would never have taken place, the Gospel would never have been taken to the World, the Priesthood would never have been given to all worthy males, etc. etc. etc. We have received further light and knowledge because people have been troubled, have desired more for themselves and others and had gone done on their knees to get it from the Lord as he promised he would do so.

Telling someone not to go to the Lord and ask him when s/he is troubled when the Lord is practically begging us to in verses like the below is, imo, false doctrine.

Luke 11:5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;

6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?

7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.

8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

It just astonishes me that any Saint would discourage another from spending time seeking the Lord's Will after reading verses like the below:

Alma 13:27 And now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words, and cast off your sins, and not procrastinate the day of your repentance;

28 But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering;

29 Having faith on the Lord; having a hope that ye shall receive eternal life; having the love of God always in your hearts, that ye may be lifted up at the last day and enter into his rest.

30 And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death.

Edited December 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[bluebell]

Except you already did earlier in the thread:

When your posting style radically shifted I suspected that you were just flippantly deflecting rather than sincerely discussing the subject.

Now my suspicions are confirmed.

As most people in the church understand, spiritual experiences are not the same as beliefs.

At any given testimony meeting, i might here 20 people share their beliefs and only one (if any) share a spiritual experience (which makes sense, since the Prophet and Apostles counsel us to treat them as sacred and not just share them with anyone who asks).

So no, Cal did not share a spiritual experience earlier in the thread when she told you what she believed about women and the priesthood. She has not, in any way, contradicted herself by refusing to share a spiritual experience with you on demand.

Your suspicions are unfounded.

[Calm]

I tend to be a Martha more than a Mary.

I think so many of us do because it really is easier to go out and do something than to wait patiently on the Lord for his teachings. We say our prayers and then get up and get on with the good without taking the time to wait on the Lord to find out the better and even the best.

Life requires a combination of the two, the hard part is to remember that we need time and commitment and humility to spend at the feet of the Lord learning imo because it is too easy to get caught up in the doing, too easy for our responses to become habits so that we no longer listen to the Spirit for guidance and instead simply assume we are doing the right thing just because it was the right thing yesterday.

I think the Lord wants us to continually pray to him so that our efforts are not only guided into the best way to serve others, but also so we will remember we need to listen to His Will and keep it in our hearts as much as do His Will.

And we need to remember that if we don't want the Lord to treat us as children, for him to be forced to act as a parent who knows before the child asks what is needed and gives it, if we want to grow and progress into spiritual adults that seek out the Lord and his gifts for ourselves, we need to not only develop the gift of gratitude and acceptance, but also the gift of desiring all good things from him and proving we desire them by actually asking for them as an adult would.

I don't believe the Lord wants to keep us as trusting and obedient children for eternity, but wants companions worthy of becoming one with him, of sharing the throne with him, who do his Will because they understand the purpose of his Will and why he wants it to be fulfilled...knowledge that can only come by asking as well as doing. Mortality is about growing up and assuming responsibility for ourselves, making our own choices and determining what we desire most. We cannot put our pride and desires on the altar until we know what those desires are and whether or not they align with the Lord's Will for us.

God wants us to have a conversation with him, face to face...spiritually now, physically in the eternities. He doesn't want eternity to be like visiting the parents and having them so busy making the family comfortable and solving all their problems that there is no time to actually be with one another. He wants eternity to start now for us, he wants us to be one with him now. How can this occur if we don't try to listen to him continually in our lives, going to him to all of our concerns and troubles, putting it all out there on the table to deal with, holding nothing back.

Edited December 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

That is where the most powerful spiritual experiences come from, that is where strong faith comes from.

Enos 1:1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that hewas a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in thenurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it—

2 And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins.

3 Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart.

4 And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.

5 And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins areforgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.

7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?

8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

9 Now, it came to pass that when I had heard these words I began to feel a desire for the welfare of my brethren, the Nephites; wherefore, I did pour out my whole soul unto God for them.

10 And while I was thus struggling in the spirit, behold, the voice of the Lord came into my mind again,....

11 And after I, Enos, had heard these words, my faith began to beunshaken in the Lord; and I prayed unto him with many longstrugglings for my brethren, the Lamanites.

12 And it came to pass that after I had prayed and labored with all diligence, the Lord said unto me: I will grant unto thee according to thy desires, because of thy faith....

15 ....I cried unto him continually, for he had said unto me: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive in the name of Christ, ye shall receive it.

16 And I had faith, and I did cry unto God...and he covenanted with me...

17 And I, Enos, knew it would be according to the covenant which he had made; wherefore my soul did rest.

JS History 1:13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God.....I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me Isaw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Where is the act of service that results in the "most powerful spiritual experiences" in the above?

Edited December 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I think so many of us do because it really is easier to go out and do something than to wait patiently on the Lord for his teachings. We say our prayers and then get up and get on with the good without taking the time to wait on the Lord to find out the better and even the best.

Life requires a combination of the two, the hard part is to remember that we need time and commitment and humility to spend at the feet of the Lord learning imo because it is too easy to get caught up in the doing, too easy for our responses to become habits so that we no longer listen to the Spirit for guidance and instead simply assume we are doing the right thing just because it was the right thing yesterday.

I think the Lord wants us to continually pray to him so that our efforts are not only guided into the best way to serve others, but also so we will remember we need to listen to His Will and keep it in our hearts as much as do His Will.

And we need to remember that if we don't want the Lord to treat us as children, for him to be forced to act as a parent who knows before the child asks what is needed and gives it, if we want to grow and progress into spiritual adults that seek out the Lord and his gifts for ourselves, we need to not only develop the gift of gratitude and acceptance, but also the gift of desiring all good things from him and proving we desire them by actually asking for them as an adult would.

I don't believe the Lord wants to keep us as trusting and obedient children for eternity, but wants companions worthy of becoming one with him, of sharing the throne with him, who do his Will because they understand the purpose of his Will and why he wants it to be fulfilled...knowledge that can only come by asking as well as doing. Mortality is about growing up and assuming responsibility for ourselves, making our own choices and determining what we desire most. We cannot put our pride and desires on the altar until we know what those desires are and whether or not they align with the Lord's Will for us.

God wants us to have a conversation with him, face to face...spiritually now, physically in the eternities. He doesn't want eternity to be like visiting the parents and having them so busy making the family comfortable and solving all their problems that there is no time to actually be with one another. He wants eternity to start now for us, he wants us to be one with him now. How can this occur if we don't try to listen to him continually in our lives, going to him to all of our concerns and troubles, putting it all out there on the table to deal with, holding nothing back.

I wish the blockage of that spirit would go away, but also know that it's me and my doubts that are doing the blocking. I also know that busy work isn't the way because it's become the idol of worship not the Lord.

[Maidservant]

I am going to have to look for it....and my husband took back the Volume 1 of the CHI and it may be in there.

One of these days I am going to have set up a database for all the references I find because it is annoying when I've done the work once only to have to do it again. May take some time, getting the house appraised tomorrow and want it at least tidy and everything takes twice as long on a bum ankle.

Hey, ha ha, no worries, I really should look into it myself when I'm ready. If you happen to find something handy, would love to hear it anytime, otherwise don't go to trouble . I'm the same way--"I read about it 7 years ago, I know I did!" but unfortunately I haven't kept a record of these kinds of gems most of the time.

But sometimes people confuse the two, so it is better imo to define the particular issue being focused on rather than just condemn something generically as "patriarchy" because it just might be of the "patriarchal order" of things.

Surely. Definitions are always the place to start, for me.