Women And The Priesthood

[Maidservant]

Just came across this today and it made me think of this thread.

http://mormonscholar...-hudson-cassler

Yes, you do. How did you come to that conclusion, if you don't mind saying?

Taking the temple plainly and taking my heavenly Father at his word--the word HE gave, so I don't know why it does me any good to deny it or explain it away. I may not understand everything about it, but it is very plain.

Marriage (and family) is an order of the priesthood, one that I have entered into and which covenants I am striving to keep.

I do not have the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood although I do bear priesthood delegations in the church and represent the priesthood and in my specific stewardship in the church I function with priesthood authority based on a delegation from my priesthood leaders (in my case, I have a cub scout stewardship).

Bruce R. McConkie:

"Priesthood is power like none other on earth or in heaven. It is the very power of God himself, the power by which the worlds were made, the power by which all things are regulated, upheld, and preserved.

It is the power of faith, the faith by which the Father creates and governs. God is God because he is the embodiment of all faith and all power and all priesthood. The life he lives is named eternal life.

And the extent to which we become like him is the extent to which we gain his faith, acquire his power, and exercise his priesthood. And when we have become like him in the full and true sense, then we also shall have eternal life.

Faith and priesthood go hand in hand. Faith is power and power is priesthood. After we gain faith, we receive the priesthood. Then, through the priesthood, we grow in faith until, having all power, we become like our Lord.

Our time here in mortality is set apart as a time of probation and of testing. It is our privilege while here to perfect our faith and to grow in priesthood power. . . . .

It is that priesthood is the very name of the power of God, and that if we are to become like him, we must receive and exercise his priesthood or power as he exercises it.

It is that he has given us an endowment of heavenly power here on earth, which is after the order of his Son and which, because it is the power of God, is of necessity without beginning of days or end of years.

It is that we can enter an order of the priesthood named the new and everlasting covenant of marriage (see D&C 131:2), named also the patriarchal order, because of which order we can create for ourselveseternal family units of our own, patterned after the family of God our Heavenly Father.

It is that we have power, by faith, to govern and control all things, both temporal and spiritual; to work miracles and perfect lives; to stand in the presence of God and be like him because we have gained his faith, his perfections, and his power, or in other words the fulness of his priesthood.

This, then, is the doctrine of the priesthood, than which there neither is nor can be anything greater. This is the power we can gain through faith and righteousness.

Truly, there is power in the priesthood—power to do all things!

If the world itself was created by the power of the priesthood, surely that same power can move mountains and control the elements.

If one-third of the hosts of heaven were cast down to earth by the power of the priesthood, surely that same power can put at defiance the armies of nations or stay the fall of atomic bombs.

If all men shall be raised from mortality to immortality by the power of the priesthood, surely that same power can cure the diseased and the dying and raise the dead.

Truly there is power in the priesthood—a power which we seek to acquire to use, a power which we devoutly pray may rest upon us and upon our posterity forever."

This description plainly and fully describes what *I* have been doing before I came to mortality, what I am doing here and what I will be doing for eternity. I am a participant in world creation--again, before now and forever--and Brother McConkie confirms or explains here that priesthood (=faith) creates world(s).

I would also draw your attention to his reference of the order of the Son of God and I would elaborate on that, here: Mosiah 5:7, Mosiah 27:25, Ether 3:14 and of course 76:53-60.

Perhaps the question should not be whether or not women have priesthood (they do), but what ought to be the permissible exercise or expression of that priesthood, the offices of priesthood that are offered or made open and available. There are women who would like to exercise priesthood by being bishops or by laying on hands for healing--two expressions, as examples, that are not permitted. Perhaps the article I started off with would answer that better.

https://www.lds.org/...sthood?lang=eng (full talk from which I got those excerpts)

Edited December 19, 2012 by Maidservant

[Erin15]

God has already said "yes." We just need him to re-affirm his previous decision so that there is no longer room for doubt.

To whom did he say yes?

Edited December 19, 2012 by Erin15

[Maidservant]

Initiatory, and endowment. In both no priesthood authority is sited and neither are done in the name of the godhead or close in the name of Christ. All other ordinances do at least one if not all three.

Well, that is an interesting observation, but I think our heavenly Father does ALL things by priesthood--it is how HE acts--by his priesthood. Is there anything heavenly Father can or will do that is outside of priesthood? Honest question, perhaps another thread even. But for me I already think that all things he does are priesthood.

[Erin15]

There are women who would like to exercise priesthood by being bishops or by laying on hands for healing--two expressions, as examples, that are not permitted.

With regards to being a bishop, no one, man or woman, can become a bishop just because they want to. You have to be called. That is how it works in the kingdom. We all serve God in whatever capacity He calls us to serve in, and we are told specifically and repeatedly that the reward will be the same regardless of the calling so long as we fulfill it faithfully.

The idea of longing after a calling seems wholly incompatible with the way His Kingdom functions. We should be happy to serve in whatever calling be are given, submitting to His will is a basic component of discipleship.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Erin15

[Saints Alive]

Well, that is an interesting observation, but I think our heavenly Father does ALL things by priesthood--it is how HE acts--by his priesthood. Is there anything heavenly Father can or will do that is outside of priesthood? Honest question, perhaps another thread even. But for me I already think that all things he does are priesthood.

The priesthood isn't some magical force. It is merely the authority to act in the place of God. So in some senses women do hold a priesthood, when they are authorized to act in Gods name even if it isn't a specific priesthood. But they do not hold the priesthood as we commonly think of it, and they do not hold the priesthood that gives them the right to leadership outside of primary and relief society.

[Calm]

With regards to being a bishop, no one, man or woman, can become a bishop just because they want to. You have to be called. That is how it works in the kingdom. We all serve God in whatever capacity He calls us to serve in, and we are told specifically and repeatedly that the reward will be the same regardless of the calling so long as we fulfill it faithfully.

The idea of longing after a calling seems wholly incompatible with the way His Kingdom functions. We should be happy to serve in whatever calling be are given, submitting to His will is a basic component of discipleship.

And yet boys are taught to desire the Priesthood and are praised for doing so.

Ask the boys in your class to stand. These boys have the potential to receive the priesthood, which is a greater power than electricity because it is the power and authority to act in God’s name. Through this power Heavenly Father’s children can be baptized and receive other Church ordinances. But in order to receive this power and use it as God has intended, a boy must be worthy and properly prepared....

Read or have a class member read the following quotation from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland: “We ask you young men of the Aaronic Priesthood to prepare and bless and pass these emblems of the Savior’s sacrifice worthily and reverently. What a stunning privilege and sacred trust given at such a remarkably young age! I can think of no higher compliment heaven could pay you. We do love you. Live your best and look your best when you participate in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1995, p. 89; or Ensign, Nov. 1995, p. 68).

https://www.lds.org/manual/primary-7-new-testament/lesson-47-the-priesthood-can-bless-our-lives-priesthood-preparation-lesson?lang=eng

Wonder if there is a lesson in Primary where only the girls stand.

Edited December 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

The priesthood isn't some magical force. It is merely the authority to act in the place of God.

The priesthood is the eternal power and authority of God. Through the priesthood God created and governs the heavens and the earth. Through this power He redeems and exalts His children, bringing to pass “the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

http://www.lds.org/t...sthood?lang=eng Edited December 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

More boys and the Priesthood in Primary:

Help the children understand that worthy boys can receive the same priesthood when they are twelve that John the Baptist restored toJoseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Explain that when boys receive the Aaronic Priesthood, they are given the power to act in the name of God in blessing the members of their ward or branch.

https://www.lds.org/...others?lang=eng

Express your gratitude that we can receive all the blessings necessary for us to return to Heavenly Father because of the restoration of the priesthood. Challenge the boys to prepare to receive the great power of the priesthood and to always live worthy to exercise that power. Challenge the girls to honor the priesthood and prepare themselves to be worthy to receive the blessings of the priesthood.

http://www.lds.org/m...stored?lang=eng

You may want to testify to the children that the priesthood of God is the greatest power on earth and that it can bless their lives in many ways. You may want to share an experience when the priesthood has blessed your life. Encourage the boys in your class to prepare to receive the Aaronic Priesthood.

https://www.lds.org/...sthood?lang=eng

As each girl prepares to become a young woman and each boy prepares to become a young man and receive the priesthood, you can be an important influence in their lives.

https://www.lds.org/manual/primary-4/helps-for-the-teacher?lang=eng Edited December 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Here is the one Primary lesson that "asks the girls" to do something:

1.

Ask the boys to imagine what it might have been like to be Joseph. Ask the girls to imagine what it might have been like to be Mary. Have them tell you what they might have thought when the angel came to visit them. Ask them what they might have felt when they were told they would be the earthly parents of the Savior.

http://www.lds.org/m...g=deu&clang=eng

Here's another one that has the girls as special:

show picture 2-12, A Biblical School. Explain that the young boys of Nazareth went to school at the synagogue, or church......

Explain that besides being taught at home, Jesus may have gone to a school like this one.....

Explain that at this time little girls did not go to school. They were taught at home by their mothers.

https://www.lds.org/manual/primary-2/lesson-9?lang=eng Edited December 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

BTW, couldn't find any Primary lesson that taught only about mothers or anything else that was unique to girls that was something to be desired.

[Erin15]

BTW, couldn't find any Primary lesson that taught only about mothers or anything else that was unique to girls that was something to be desired.

It almost sounds like you are talking about esteem. The esteem of others as well as self-esteem.

If that is what you are talking about, my response would be that seeking the praise of others is a waste of time, for happiness cannot be found that way.

If you want to be happy, The Gospel provides a simple solution: Stop thinking about what you want and go help other people.

[Calm]

It almost sounds like you are talking about esteem.

No, it is not.

[Maidservant]

With regards to being a bishop, no one, man or woman, can become a bishop just because they want to. You have to be called. That is how it works in the kingdom. We all serve God in whatever capacity He calls us to serve in, and we are told specifically and repeatedly that the reward will be the same regardless of the calling so long as we fulfill it faithfully.

Yes. Of course.

Although I should mention that I don't serve for reward. I serve because I am.

The idea of longing after a calling seems wholly incompatible with the way His Kingdom functions. We should be happy to serve in whatever calling be are given, submitting to His will is a basic component of discipleship.

Of course.

For the record, I am not advocating that women ought to be bishops in any case. I actually have a problem with that for reasons that might do better on a different thread than this. I think I have posted on it before in the past.

The priesthood isn't some magical force.

Well, I don't use the phrase 'magical force' when I think about the priesthood, and I think I would have to know what exactly you are thinking when you say that in order to determine if it matches my conception. Not that either of us should take time to do this, ha ha , I'm just saying.

It is merely the authority to act in the place of God.

But I agree with this (although I would remove the merely), and it is this statement that I have in mind when I understand that all servants of God and all the work that God does is priesthood. But I would remind you that priesthood is also spoken of as power (magical force?), so I think priesthood may be a rather complex thing although authority is essential. Also if you read through the excerpts from that Elder McConkie talk, I think he takes it quite a bit farther also.

So in some senses women do hold a priesthood, when they are authorized to act in Gods name even if it isn't a specific priesthood.

.

So we basically agree.

But they do not hold the priesthood as we commonly think of it,

You are right. Not as is commonly thought of it. But that is not a recommendation for the reality of something--how it is commonly thought of.

They do not hold the priesthood that gives them the right to leadership outside of primary and relief society.

You are right. Women do not have priesthood offices in the church, they do not have priesthood in the church. I personally do not think women are ever meant to have priesthood in the church and would have a problem with it if it happened (although I'd get over it, sure). But that statement of authority that you bring up--when I am authorized BY my priesthood leaders to represent them in the order and organization of the church, I have a priesthood delegation and am doing the work of the priesthood and follow the order of the priesthood, and as I believe, have priesthood power that I can draw upon in order to accomplish the duties of my stewardship and my representation of the priesthood (leaders) and my representation of Christ (my High Priest).

[Maidservant]

Some more fun stuff.

N. Eldon Tanner

Though I wish to deal with the priesthood as it pertains to the latter days, we must realize, as Brigham Young explained, that the priesthood is the law by which the worlds are, were, and will be brought into existence and peopled. It gives them their revolutions, their days, weeks, months, years, and seasons.

He further declared the priesthood to be “a perfect system of government, of laws and ordinances, by which we can be prepared to pass from one gate to another, and from one sentinel to another, until we go into the presence of our Father and God.” . . .

N.Eldon Tanner quoted President Joseph F. Smith:

“[The priesthood] is nothing more nor less than the power of God delegated to man by which man can act in the earth for the salvation of the human family, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, and act legitimately; not assuming that authority, nor borrowing it from generations that are dead and gone, but authority that has been given in this day in which we live by ministering angels and spirits from above, direct from the presence of Almighty God. …” (Gospel Doctrine[Deseret Book Co., 1939 ed.], pp. 139–40.) . . .

We come now to the third question about the necessity of the priesthood in administering Church affairs. Only by the authority of the priesthood can the ordinances of the gospel be received or administered. Without it one cannot baptize, confirm, ordain, officiate, or hold any presiding office in the Church. In the women’s organizations those holding positions as officers or teachers are called and set apart by priesthood authority."

http://www.lds.org/e...ood, delegation

Also one from Joseph Fielding Smith:

http://www.lds.org/g...ood, delegation

also of worth on the subject:

"This is not man’s work or woman’s work; it is all God’s work, which is centered on the atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ."

http://www.lds.org/m...ood, delegation

Edited December 19, 2012 by Maidservant

[Calm]

If that is what you are talking about, my response would be that seeking the praise of others is a waste of time, for happiness cannot be found that way.

If you want to be happy, The Gospel provides a simple solution: Stop thinking about what you want and go help other people.

I am sure that approach would be ideal for teaching Primary age children.

[treeface]

Maidservant, thanks for your repy, in post #101 above. Magnificent perspective presented at the link you provided. I wish all of my sisters could take a look through that lens, whether or not they decided it was for them. The key is to look at what is actually taught or implied by the greater light and knowledge that Mormonism brings to the table, and to distinguish that from Mormon (or Christian, or Abrahamic) culture.

Edited December 19, 2012 by treeface

[Saints Alive]

Perhaps I should flush out my statement a little bit more ( and perhaps its more personal philosophy than gospel) The priesthood is a concept like agency. It does not give abilities that were not already there. We are all gods in embryo, with only Gods authorization we can work miracles. When we are exalted do you think God is just going to flip a switch and we will no how to create worlds? No he may show us how to use that power but it is a power born into us by blood, as children of God. In this mortal probation all we require is authorization.

[Yep]

My thoughts...

Gender roles exist, they are the result of our physiology and our spirit combined.

Gender roles, as with everything else that man does and is, are originated in how life works in the eternities.

As with everything else, there are a large number of ways and methods that can cause eternal truths to be distorted and tainted.

Gender roles exist and for life to follow God's plan must be held to, in the manner that is eternal.

Feelings of inequality come from the following:

a) A lack of understanding

b) Misuse and/or misrepresentation of a gender role

c) Intentional interference and twisting of the roles by Satan and those who follow his type

d) The prolonged state of bachelor/bachelorette

e) Self or spouse who does not truly believe in equality in marriage

I believe that there is merit in arguments to some men abusing their role in relation to women based in our inherent size and strength as well as some men abusing the role in relation to a belief that somehow men have "power" from God and women do not. This does not necessitate an assumption of the same role is necessary for equality. The only method of true equality is for a man and a woman to be one.

"It is not good that the man should be alone." (Gen 2:18) The woman is a check and balance to the man. Man and woman are complimentary. We were given specific roles and abilities such that we cannot achieve our full potential without the other.

Regardless of anything else, we are in error when we as men or women view our gender roles as being lesser or greater than that of our compliment. If we work to change the gender roles, we are in error. If we work to correct the errors that create the perception of imbalance and inequality, to improve our understanding of what those roles truly are, then we are working towards a true balance and equality.

The value of the woman is much higher than those who pursue a form of "feminism" would have us believe. Often I find that those who promote an agenda of "same" and not an agenda of "equal" hold a demeaning view of or or other of the genders' roles. This often comes from the fact that men have written our history and scripture. Man hasn't given woman her due credit throughout history and this has fed into some people's devaluing of woman and quite bit of false sense of grandeur on the part of some men. Men are not in any manner better than women, and given this, it is also proper to note that women are not in any manner better than men. We are equal but different. We are both of extreme value and must recognize and remember such about our own gender as well as the other. We are greater together than we ever can be seperate. Remember the Lord said, "Behold, the [man and woman] is one... now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." (Gen 11:6)

But that is all my perspective as an Elder in Zion. Yet, I believe my perspective is based in our, the LDS, doctrine.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Yep

[Maidservant]

Perhaps I should flush out my statement a little bit more ( and perhaps its more personal philosophy than gospel) The priesthood is a concept like agency. It does not give abilities that were not already there. We are all gods in embryo, with only Gods authorization we can work miracles. When we are exalted do you think God is just going to flip a switch and we will no how to create worlds? No he may show us how to use that power but it is a power born into us by blood, as children of God. In this mortal probation all we require is authorization.

I like this thought a great deal, actually, and I think I will ponder on it a lot more.

[CV75]

My understanding is that there is no priesthood office in the Church of the Firstborn. Why is not being called of God to a particular office in pre-resurrection life a problem? The work for the dead should correct it, if there is one.

[Cobalt-70]

The impression I have always had is that in the eternities a sealed couple is basically treated like a single entity, which would make the distinction of patriarchy meaningless.

That depends. If the arrangement is understood to be that the man is the "president" over his wife, then there is still, very much, patriarchy. But that such an arrangement would occur in the eternities makes no sense theologically, given that according to the Adam and Eve myth, Eve was only subordinated to Adam as punishment for eating the fruit of the tree first. (Not saying that I agree we should be preserving that part of the myth. If man will not be punished for Adam's transgression, then why are women punished for Eve's?)

[Cobalt-70]

Perhaps the question should not be whether or not women have priesthood (they do), but what ought to be the permissible exercise or expression of that priesthood, the offices of priesthood that are offered or made open and available. There are women who would like to exercise priesthood by being bishops or by laying on hands for healing--two expressions, as examples, that are not permitted. Perhaps the article I started off with would answer that better.

Women laid on hands for healing in the 19th century, with the full knowledge and approval of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and their successors. And I'm not sure whether or not there has been an official church announcement from the First Presidency revoking women's right to officiate in these ordinances. Maybe there has been, but I'm not aware of it. That said, I wouldn't necessarily recommend a Mormon woman going out and blessing the sick, who wants to remain in good standing in the modern church.

[Cobalt-70]

To whom did he say yes?

Apparently, to the 1st century church, and to Joseph Smith.

[Cobalt-70]

Gender roles exist, they are the result of our physiology and our spirit combined.

Exactly what in a woman's physiology, or in the nature of her spirit, makes her incapable of leading a church congregation? Or requires her to wear dresses, high heels, and lipstick?

The value of the woman is much higher than those who pursue a form of "feminism" would have us believe. Often I find that those who promote an agenda of "same" and not an agenda of "equal" hold a demeaning view of or or other of the genders' roles. This often comes from the fact that men have written our history and scripture. Man hasn't given woman her due credit throughout history and this has fed into some people's devaluing of woman and quite bit of false sense of grandeur on the part of some men. Men are not in any manner better than women, and given this, it is also proper to note that women are not in any manner better than men. We are equal but different. We are both of extreme value and must recognize and remember such about our own gender as well as the other. We are greater together than we ever can be seperate. Remember the Lord said, "Behold, the [man and woman] is one... now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." (Gen 11:6)

No modern feminist wants women to be the same as men. Your view of feminism is stuck in the 1920s, and you should do some reading on feminist theory. Feminism is about patriarchy: the "centering" of males and the masculine, and the "otherizing" of the female and the feminine. It is about "equality" only in the sense that neither male/masculine nor female/feminine should be the "center."

[bluebell]

Does anyone else think it's interesting that men cannot be saved without being ordained to the priesthood, yet a woman can be?