Mormonsandgays

[california boy]

Isn't it all an issue of trust in God though that heaven will be heavenly for us? If the whole point of God doing this is that we "might have joy" then does it really matter right now to know the specific details for us as individuals, why can't one find the celestial kingdom and exaltation appealing just based on the concept of the joy that God has promised each of us if we accept his gifts and grace and commandments fully?

There are things that I know I won't have the opportunity to do in this life that I am hoping to not only be able to do, but will continue to want to do in the next one. I don't want to be 'above' enjoying certain activities like sky diving and mountain climbing and comic book reading (my parents never let me get the comic books I wanted, we had to go with Richie Rich and Archie when I wanted Thor and Daredevil). But there is no promise that such things will be activities in the Celestial Kingdom. I could worry that I am going to miss out on those things because I made other choices here (like spending money on food for the family rather than on comic books)....or I can just leave it up to God to know what will bring me the most joy through the eternities, whatever that is.

*I am not trying to trivialize the sacrifice that those who choose to give up having a romantic companion by comparing it to giving up comic books, etc. There are things that I have given up that are too precious and painful to list so I must resort to the lesser important things. I am just making a point that everyone has good things they want in this life and won't be getting because of trying to choose the better way and we have a choice whether to let that potential loss consume us or not.

I understand what you are saying and completely believe in the concept of sacrificing while on this earth to achieve something greater in the next. But I am not sure how wild you would be looking forward to leaving the person you love dearly in order to be with someone of the same sex for the eternities if that is what awaited you.

I guess I believe Joseph Smith too much when he said that our same desires in this life will rise up with us in the next. Has the church abandoned that teaching? Was that just a policy decision? Or is it doctrine? Cause I am not feeling any desires for a woman in this life. That I am sure about.

[california boy]

Homosexuality is the greatest threat to human civilization......there, I said it!

lol. I think that is hilarious! There, I said it!

Do you really think that the gay agenda includes destroying all of human civilization? Do you realize that the Roman Empire thrived when homosexuality was rampant, but collapsed when the Christians took over? Do you have even one shred of reason for such nonsense?

[Calm]

I guess I believe Joseph Smith too much when he said that our same desires in this life will rise up with us in the next. Has the church abandoned that teaching? Was that just a policy decision? Or is it doctrine? Cause I am not feeling any desires for a woman in this life. That I am sure about.

But Joseph went on to say that those desires would also be purified in the life to come, not stay the same.

I can understand the undesirability of contemplating having to give up what is most important in your life now, save God, even for the promise of something supposedly greater in the future if you have completely given yourself to your loved one in the here and now. How can you consider that anything could be greater if you have truly totally committed yourself? Believing that there is something greater than that relationship (besides the relationship itself progressing) most likely means that you are holding part of yourself back.

But logically is it really likely that out of all the individuals that have ever existed that my husband and anyone else's husband is the absolutely best match to me or any other wife in terms of personality and interest and the ability to work together so that together we will both maximize our potential and our relationship's potential? As we are now, I have to say that is very improbable but what that implies to me is that the Lord will be working on us in some way to turn us and our relationship into something miraculous.

For someone unable to be with the one they love without violating the Law of Chastity, I would look on that as would I be willing to give up a relationship in the here and now with my loved one for the promise of a greater relationship with them in the future...one that I cannot comprehend now what form it might take and so would have to completely rely on the Lord's promises? I don't know if I could, that isn't something that has been asked of me yet though I have lost a few relationships that hold no promise to be recovered in mortality that I hope to be restored and refined in the next life. Again it becomes an issue of trust and how much we are willing to put in the Lord's hands.

I am not sure I would be willing to hope for such a change if that means I have to believe the fundamental nature of the relationship has to change rather than being built upon, enlarged and refined but I think I might be able to still desire exaltation the Celestial Kingdom because what I look forward to the most is my relationship with God....because that will form all my other relationships into miracles as well and so instead of thinking about what will be, I would (and do already to a great extent) school myself into thinking and acting on "Thy Will be done, not mine".

That is why I think it is helpful at times not to be too specific in thinking about what celestial life will be like and instead think of it in terms of being one with God and our loved ones, whatever that relationship is going to be like (for example, it makes no sense to me that I will be acting like a parent to those who are now my children as their spirits are as eternal and experienced as mine, but the tie will be there somehow).

I guess I've spent this time writing my thoughts down because I think it tragic when someone decides to settle for less than exaltation even though intellectually I know that it is likely there are many that will have no desire for exaltation or even the Celestial Kingdom. To me this means they are willing to accept less than the fulness of the connection God is offering to share with us and to me that is turning one's back on the greatest experience possible in our existence. If I believed one could still be fully one with the Lord, to know as we are known, it wouldn't seem like such a loss to me. Even if someone believes they are currently wilfully sinning according to their current knowledge of the gospel and of God and that they will continue to do so, if they still allow and plead for God to work on them in whatever manner he chooses in order that they may become acceptable in His Presence, knowing that they will resist God's grace for a time but asking Him to continue no matter what....I just find that a much more hopeful attitude whatever sins and weaknesses they are burdened than someone who chooses to live a good life but places limits on how they will allow God to work on them.

[treeface]

Isn't it all an issue of trust in God though that heaven will be heavenly for us?

Indeed. Heaven isn't heaven for me if it isn't also heaven for california boy and rockpond's son. And for Rob Osborn, calmoriah, Hamba Tuhan, and anyone else. I don't know how it will all work out, but do believe that in heaven our associations will be based on natural affinity (how God created us). If God's house is a house of order, and if He created everyone and everything in that house, then it's a natural order, not an artificial one. Imho.

[canard78]

No, because I've already made a commitment to him and my children, though if he agree on celibate I suspect we would abide by that rule.

Converts who have a relationship in place that is contrary to gospel law have to make a choice. In some cases, the Church tells them not to leave the relationship rather than be baptised because of their responsibility to others as in the case of polygamous marriages in countries where this is legal. Other cases they encourage the couple to marry or to end the relationship such as when there are no children involved and no significant economic or social dependency of one partner on the other.

However, your scenario is one where the Church springs a new law on its members where none existed before, something different than what is being asked of gay members right now. It is closer to what members experienced with plural marriage, both in its inception and ending. Thus there may be other commitments and covenants already in place that have an effect on those being asked to change, covenants that they must take into account in deciding what is morally right.

This is not about any 'suddenly' this an emotional excersize in helping straight people empathise with what we as a church are asking gay people to live like for all their lives.

I'm not even offering you a celibate marriage. I'm asking you to imagine having to divorce your husband and give up your children for adoption and have all temple sealings annulled. You can have nothing to do with them, but are told that in the next life you will be given a new spouse. If that was the request from the prophet in order for you to retain your membership, which would you choose.

I am asking this question of everyone on this thread.

I repeat, I am not campaigning for a change in marriage definition, I am asking for some understanding and compassion from the people who casually throw gay people the dismissal of 'forsake all of it for this life, it will be fine in the next.' That is all we as a church have to offer this group of people who, according to the brethren, have an attraction they did not choose.

[Storm Rider]

This is not about any 'suddenly' this an emotional excersize in helping straight people empathise with what we as a church are asking gay people to live like for all their lives.

I'm not even offering you a celibate marriage. I'm asking you to imagine having to divorce your husband and give up your children for adoption and have all temple sealings annulled. You can have nothing to do with them, but are told that in the next life you will be given a new spouse. If that was the request from the prophet in order for you to retain your membership, which would you choose.

I am asking this question of everyone on this thread.

I repeat, I am not campaigning for a change in marriage definition, I am asking for some understanding and compassion from the people who casually throw gay people the dismissal of 'forsake all of it for this life, it will be fine in the next.' That is all we as a church have to offer this group of people who, according to the brethren, have an attraction they did not choose.

The context is not a good one. The issue is what God is asking of his children. At no time in human history as God ever told his child to feel comfortable to follow the dictates of the carnal body. He has consistently, constantly demanded of his children to be discipline our carnal natures and align our desires with this spiritual teachings. If someone chooses not to follow God that is a personal choice that all can and should respect. However, if someone attempts to tell us that God's laws are not really that important, that they are old fashioned and don't really apply to our more modern, sophisticated time period, then we have a problem. We are followers of Jesus Christ. In that simple statement is the understanding that each of us struggles to submit to God's will, to overcome our temptations in their myriads, and that each of us is a sinner that stands before God a broken creature and are in need of his grace, love, and forgiveness. The minute that one attempts to say they are not need of forgiveness is where we part ways. One is in a position of submission to God and the other is in a position of pride demanding that God break his laws, teachings, and dictates and curry his will to man's. I promise you that the proud man will die in his sins.

[canard78]

The context is not a good one. The issue is what God is asking of his children. At no time in human history as God ever told his child to feel comfortable to follow the dictates of the carnal body. He has consistently, constantly demanded of his children to be discipline our carnal natures and align our desires with this spiritual teachings. If someone chooses not to follow God that is a personal choice that all can and should respect. However, if someone attempts to tell us that God's laws are not really that important, that they are old fashioned and don't really apply to our more modern, sophisticated time period, then we have a problem. We are followers of Jesus Christ. In that simple statement is the understanding that each of us struggles to submit to God's will, to overcome our temptations in their myriads, and that each of us is a sinner that stands before God a broken creature and are in need of his grace, love, and forgiveness. The minute that one attempts to say they are not need of forgiveness is where we part ways. One is in a position of submission to God and the other is in a position of pride demanding that God break his laws, teachings, and dictates and curry his will to man's. I promise you that the proud man will die in his sins.

You've completely and perhaps intentionally avoided the question. I'm asking how you would feel if the prophet asked you to walk away from your wife and children for the sake of your salvation. Would you do it or not?

Gay people are not simply saying 'let me have sex with whoever I want.' To insinuate as much is a blinkered, narrow-minded view of homosexuality. This is not even exclusively about sex, but that obviously plays a part in it. We are telling them, don't marry, don't try to adopt a child, don't experience the most fulfilling life experiences available of developing a loving marriage relationship and parent child relationship. I am asking you to contemplate how YOU would feel if the prophet/God decided how you would feel if that were asked of you.

I repeat... I'm not saying the above as an argument for changing the marriage definition, rather I'm trying to get people to consider the perspective and life prospects for a gay Mormon. To not do so is the very opposite of Christlike compassion.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Heaven isn't heaven for me if it isn't also heaven for california boy and rockpond's son. And for Rob Osborn, calmoriah, Hamba Tuhan, and anyone else.

Thanks for the concern, but to be honest I don't really worry about heaven much if at all. As I've told my bishop several times over the past few years, I could be happy for all eternity if it consisted of nothing more than what I have now.

[Calm]

This is not about any 'suddenly' this an emotional excersize in helping straight people empathise with what we as a church are asking gay people to live like for all their lives.

I'm not even offering you a celibate marriage. I'm asking you to imagine having to divorce your husband and give up your children for adoption and have all temple sealings annulled. You can have nothing to do with them, but are told that in the next life you will be given a new spouse. If that was the request from the prophet in order for you to retain your membership, which would you choose.

Already answered, please read with concentration.

Btw, this is not the first time someone has demanded posters participate in this thought experiment. It is almost a constant theme in each of these threads since gay marriage first became a topic. You act like no one has ever considered the ramifications of asking someone to sacrifice in this way.

This treatment is getting old.

Edited December 12, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

That is all we as a church have to offer this group of people who, according to the brethren, have an attraction they did not choose.

So the offerings of the Gospel and promise of the Atonement and all the other blessings God has offered those who obey his commandments are worthless in your eyes? Because if they have any value, then saying 'just got to wait for the next life' is most certainly not all that the Churchncan offer.

It seems to me that many of those who point out the sacrifice that those who are single and of homosexual tendencies and choose to follow the Law of Chastity in this life seem to feel that this is somehow a unique sacrifice above all others and that the blessings they do not have access to in this life mean more than any or all of the others of the multitude of blessings God has offered us in the here and now. Everyone has sacrifices to make if they choose to follow God's Word and Will and one cannot and should not compare or inflate one person's offering to God over another's. We should have sympathy for all of God's children rather than obsessing over a particular group by placing them on some sort of pedestal that demands special consideration.

[california boy]

But Joseph went on to say that those desires would also be purified in the life to come, not stay the same.

I can understand the undesirability of contemplating having to give up what is most important in your life now, save God, even for the promise of something supposedly greater in the future if you have completely given yourself to your loved one in the here and now. How can you consider that anything could be greater if you have truly totally committed yourself? Believing that there is something greater than that relationship (besides the relationship itself progressing) most likely means that you are holding part of yourself back.

But logically is it really likely that out of all the individuals that have ever existed that my husband and anyone else's husband is the absolutely best match to me or any other wife in terms of personality and interest and the ability to work together so that together we will both maximize our potential and our relationship's potential? As we are now, I have to say that is very improbable but what that implies to me is that the Lord will be working on us in some way to turn us and our relationship into something miraculous.

For someone unable to be with the one they love without violating the Law of Chastity, I would look on that as would I be willing to give up a relationship in the here and now with my loved one for the promise of a greater relationship with them in the future...one that I cannot comprehend now what form it might take and so would have to completely rely on the Lord's promises? I don't know if I could, that isn't something that has been asked of me yet though I have lost a few relationships that hold no promise to be recovered in mortality that I hope to be restored and refined in the next life. Again it becomes an issue of trust and how much we are willing to put in the Lord's hands.

I am not sure I would be willing to hope for such a change if that means I have to believe the fundamental nature of the relationship has to change rather than being built upon, enlarged and refined but I think I might be able to still desire exaltation the Celestial Kingdom because what I look forward to the most is my relationship with God....because that will form all my other relationships into miracles as well and so instead of thinking about what will be, I would (and do already to a great extent) school myself into thinking and acting on "Thy Will be done, not mine".

That is why I think it is helpful at times not to be too specific in thinking about what celestial life will be like and instead think of it in terms of being one with God and our loved ones, whatever that relationship is going to be like (for example, it makes no sense to me that I will be acting like a parent to those who are now my children as their spirits are as eternal and experienced as mine, but the tie will be there somehow).

I guess I've spent this time writing my thoughts down because I think it tragic when someone decides to settle for less than exaltation even though intellectually I know that it is likely there are many that will have no desire for exaltation or even the Celestial Kingdom. To me this means they are willing to accept less than the fulness of the connection God is offering to share with us and to me that is turning one's back on the greatest experience possible in our existence. If I believed one could still be fully one with the Lord, to know as we are known, it wouldn't seem like such a loss to me. Even if someone believes they are currently wilfully sinning according to their current knowledge of the gospel and of God and that they will continue to do so, if they still allow and plead for God to work on them in whatever manner he chooses in order that they may become acceptable in His Presence, knowing that they will resist God's grace for a time but asking Him to continue no matter what....I just find that a much more hopeful attitude whatever sins and weaknesses they are burdened than someone who chooses to live a good life but places limits on how they will allow God to work on them.

First, I want to thank you for taking the time to write such a heartfelt answer. It is really sweet of you. It must be so wonderful when the plan of salvation as it is revealed now fits so completely with who you are in this life. That assureity that every step you make leads you closer to God. That knowing the love you have for the person you are with will only increase grow and become more godlike. The Celestial Kingdom sounds like a wonderful place. But for me it becomes so much less wonderful living in it and even becoming a god all by myself, leaving the person I love completely out of that experience.

We know so little about what will change about ourselves. All of us die in sin. All of us rebel against the goodness of God. Yet no one believes that we will all be damned. We have great faith in the Atonement of Christ. Maybe the law of Chastity is viewed by God as being so grievous that for those that break it will be eternally damned because being celibate is the only path offered by God back to Him. The prophets and God has said so little about what God will do in the next life. But for me, it seems against the nature of a loving God to rip out the love of the person I do want to spend eternity with and replace it for something that could never be the same. Maybe God will, over time, change the very core of my spirt to be something that it is now not. In the end, like you, I have to trust in God that if there is a place for all of his children in the eternities, then there will also be a place for me.

We don't even know for sure that there will not be a place for gay couples. For two males working together throughout the eternities. Certainly God and his Son seem to manage humanity well together. (and PLEASE, I am not suggesting God and Christ are gay) We don't know how spirit children come into existence. We know so little about what it even means to be a god. What I do know is that it is important to God for his children to have love. It is important to God that we share this life experience with others. If this was about simply giving up sex for my mortal experience, I would be more than willing to do that. I even asked my bishop and stake president if it was possible to be in a male relationship with everything short of sex. The said firmly NO. So I made the choice, to live this life as a life full of love and companionship and trust in God that He has a path for me and others that are gay to do something wonderful as well in the next life.

No, I have no doctrinal support for any of this. Is all I have is to trust God, that love is of Him. In every way that your post is so completely from your heart, so is this post of mine. It is not a response to defend or to contradict what you wrote. It is an attitude that has filled my soul and one that I can feel the Sprit giving me peace. It is a peace that has come from many years of prayer fasting and listening. As I write this, I feel inside of myself that same feeling that I get when testifying about the gospel so many times in my life. I know that is going to creep out many who may read this post. Surely I am delusional. Surely God would not touch me with such thoughts. Maybe they are right. But for me, this seems so right that I can not leave the path that I am on. When I think about leaving the love in my life, darkness comes and I feel the choice is wrong. Is all I can do is trust in God that I am also one of His children and He loves me and wants me to be happy.

[Rob Osborn]

lol. I think that is hilarious! There, I said it!

Do you really think that the gay agenda includes destroying all of human civilization? Do you realize that the Roman Empire thrived when homosexuality was rampant, but collapsed when the Christians took over? Do you have even one shred of reason for such nonsense?

If everyone turned gay then no one has children, human population becomes extinct. Didnt God rain down hellfire and damnation on them for their sexual sins?

[Rob Osborn]

My belief is that God will fix those who truly are messed up with same sex attraction in the next life. There truly is hope for everyone. My strong belief is that there is no place in heaven for same sex unions.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[california boy]

If everyone turned gay then no one has children, human population becomes extinct. Didnt God rain down hellfire and damnation on them for their sexual sins?

Except I don't believe that people "turn" gay. God seems to be making plenty of people straight to continue the human population. When straight people start "turning gay" then you can start to worry. Until that happens, you can take a deep breath and be assured that the human race will not emplode.

[Rob Osborn]

Except I don't believe that people "turn" gay. God seems to be making plenty of people straight to continue the human population. When straight people start "turning gay" then you can start to worry. Until that happens, you can take a deep breath and be assured that the human race will not emplode.

We do not know the real reasons for why some people are gay. There are plenty however that can and do turn gay

[california boy]

My belief is that God will fix those who truly are messed up with same sex attraction in the next life. There truly is hope for everyone.

Abara Cadabra, you are now straight. Sorry this didn't happen earlier when it might have made a huge difference in your earth life. Oops. I guess I should have been paying more attention to your struggles.

You are free to believe what ever you want, but it is an issue that God has been silent about.

[california boy]

We do not know the real reasons for why some people are gay. There are plenty however that can and do turn gay

So you sincerely believe that the population is going to dwindle down to zero because everyone will for some unknown reason turn gay?

[Rob Osborn]

So you sincerely believe that the population is going to dwindle down to zero because everyone will for some unknown reason turn gay?

For many who are gay I see no difference in them and married couples who cheat 9n their spouses. But we dont try to justify cheaters in society, so why should it be different with gay sexual sin?

I don't see any effort to engage in a respectful conversation. Exit left.

[thesometimesaint]

CB:

I don't see it happening either. The percentage of homosexuals has stayed pretty consistent over history, even with its varying levels of acceptance or rejection by the public.

[california boy]

For many who are gay I see no difference in them and married couples who cheat 9n their spouses. But we dont try to justify cheaters in society, so why should it be different with gay sexual sin?

Not all gays cheat on their spouses.

Look you are free to believe anything you want about gay couples. It is much more honest for you to simply say, you think gay relationships are immoral. I can respect that belief. I may disagree, but I can not argue with someone's religious belief.

But to say that gays will be the end of civilization or that the population of the world will become zero because everyone "turns" gay. Or that stopping gay marriage will save the world from sin and immoral behavior is just not reasonable or logical.

[Mark Beesley]

We do not know the real reasons for why some people are gay. There are plenty however that can and do turn gay

I'm sorry, but I am going to ask for a reference to this assertion that there are plenty who "turn gay." Your reference needs to include plenty of accounts from men who were straight and happy, never had a homosexual inkling their whole lives, and then for some inexplicable reason "turned gay."

And as for the comment that homosexuality is the greatest threat to civilization . . . well, you really are on a roll.

(Nuclear war seems much more likely than everyone in the world "turning gay" . . . . unless of course being gay is so much more desirable than being straight that everyone is bound to "turn gay" eventually . . . )

Edited to add: There will apparently be no references forthcoming because Rob has been invited to exit the thread, and appropriately so I might add.

Having read through most of this thread, I want to thank California Boy in particular, and others, for being so open and honest about their feelings. I have been given pause to think and reconsider some attitudes I have harbored.

A question arises from what California Boy has stated regarding having no desire to go to the Celestial Kingdom and being separated from the person he loves. Can a person, in this life, make a rational choice about where they would like to spend eternity?

My mom, a faithful Latter-day Saint from cradle to grave, once commented to me that she had no desire to have children for eternity because of the heartache her children in mortality had caused her. Why would she want to have that kind of heartache for eternity? It may have been a temporary and emotional reaction at the time, but she never retracted the statement.

I sometimes wonder if I really want that kind of exaltation, where I am participatory in populating worlds with my dear wife, or will we find greater joy fulfilling some other type of role in the eternities? And, back to the question, can we make a rational choice while yet in mortality about what we want in the eternities? And can we change our minds later?

Edited December 12, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[rockpond]

However, your scenario is one where the Church springs a new law on its members where none existed before, something different than what is being asked of gay members right now.

I think that you've identified the flaw in the hypothetical put forward by Canard and I. However, to your point, I think there is something useful to be gleaned here. In a way, the Church does spring a new law on members. Consider my experience in counseling a gay young man from my ward. He had been raised in a strong LDS family, taught to believe in the restored church. Gained a testimony. Had faith. He looked forward to serving a mission and then getting married and having kids. He inherently believed that church was the best way to raise his family.

Then, in his late teen years comes the undeniable realization that he won't be able to marry a woman. No wife. No children. No eternal family. Then he starts to face down the prospect of a mission and two years of teaching people about a plan of salvation of which some of the primary blessings will be withheld from him. Within a short amount of time everything kinda collapsed for him.

While I agree that the church didn't actually create a new law, for him -- they effectively had. Suddenly he was subject to requirements that he had not considered possible. All he had hoped for was gone while his testimony and desire for those things remained intact. He was despondent and fell into a long period of depression.

Again, I realize that this is not the same as our hypothetical question but I still think it's useful to ponder.

[rockpond]

Calmoriah:

I also want to add that I acknowledge this quote from another one of your posts: "I am just making a point that everyone has good things they want in this life and won't be getting because of trying to choose the better way and we have a choice whether to let that potential loss consume us or not."

I think that is also a totally valid and important point. I think it incumbent upon us as saints to move towards compassion for both perspectives: those genuinely in pain with the realization that they are "outside" the current understanding of the plan of salvation as well as the requirement that we, all of us, make certain sacrifices in this life and that there is no point in trying to compare which sacrifices are more painful.

[Walden]

If everyone turned gay then no one has children, human population becomes extinct. Didnt God rain down hellfire and damnation on them for their sexual sins?

Oh please......overpopulation on this planet is a much, much, much greater threat to the human population than the ridiculous notion of "everyone turning gay", thus leading to human extinction.

You can't really be serious with this sentiment, can you? I'm not sure which is more ludicrous, the idea that people are "turned gay," or the idea that enough of the population could be "turned gay" to have an affect on an already over-populated planet.

Priceless.

[rockpond]

And, back to the question, can we make a rational choice while yet in mortality about what we want in the eternities? And can we change our minds later?

I think this is a fascinating question. I have no answer. But I think it is a really deep question.

I would add to it this question as well: Will we somehow be compelled to change our minds later? (Not by God because I don't see that in his nature but by universal law.) And if so, how/why?