Ahab Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 I can't say, as a humanist, that God does not exist. I can only say that God is irrelevant to my world and worldview. IOW, I have no use for a god. I'm not an "anti-theist" by any means but I am good without God.You're showing how little you know about God, and if you knew him better I think you'd want to be more like him.How about this: Would you like to be the best kind of person you can possibly be? If you do, then you do want to be like him, even if you don't know how you will turn out just yet.He is the best you can possibly be.
Ahab Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 Misrere, there are two different schools of thought on this subject. One is the one Ahab suggested. The other is that we were 'encapsulated' into a spirit... and that was birth.Those are the same school of thought, if I understand what you mean. Where do you think those components we were came from, when we were "encapuslated" ? We didn't come from out of nowhere or nothing. What we are came from God.
Damien the Leper Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 You're showing how little you know about God, and if you knew him better I think you'd want to be more like him.How about this: Would you like to be the best kind of person you can possibly be?If you do, then you do want to be like him, even if you don't know how you will turn out just yet.He is the best you can possibly be.It's not necessarily about what you know about God. It's more about what you know about yourself.This life is about our humanity and how we respond to the responsibility we must take for it. I have hope in our humanity, especially my own because it teaches me that charity, mercy and compassion are not religiously rooted per se but are inherent in all human creation.
Ahab Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 It's not necessarily about what you know about God. It's more about what you know about yourself.This life is about our humanity and how we respond to the responsibility we must take for it. I have hope in our humanity, especially my own because it teaches me that charity, mercy and compassion are not religiously rooted per se but are inherent in all human creation.Humanity is divine, even though not all of us are as advanced as our Father in heaven. Once you know more about him you'll know more about how far humanity can go, in the "good" way.Words often get in the way to understanding more about all things, so don't let words like "religion" throw you. It's basically all about the many "ways" we can live our own life, with there being only one "way" which is truly the very best way.
Nathair/|\ Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Those are the same school of thought, if I understand what you mean. Where do you think those components we were came from, when we were "encapuslated" ? We didn't come from out of nowhere or nothing. What we are came from God.I think what Tao is trying to present is the idea that we have always existed as entities called "intelligences" which were later put into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Parents, just as our spirit bodies enter into our physical bodies at birth. So we exist as what could be described as at least three concentric circles with the intelligence being the smallest, then the spirit, then the physical body. 1
Ahab Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 I think what Tao is trying to present is the idea that we have always existed as entities called "intelligences" which were later put into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Parents, just as our spirit bodies enter into our physical bodies at birth. So we exist as what could be described as at least three concentric circles with the intelligence being the smallest, then the spirit, then the physical body. Ah, okay, that school of thought. Same general idea, though. Where do people who believe that suppose our intelligence came from, when it was "encapuslated" within a spirit? It didn't come from out of nowhere or nothing. What we are, including our intelligence, came from God. That is the kind of intelligence we are, and always have been. An "intelligence" simply refers to a particular "kind" of life or being, and the kind we are and all we have within us came from God.
Damien the Leper Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Humanity is divine, even though not all of us are as advanced as our Father in heaven. Once you know more about him you'll know more about how far humanity can go, in the "good" way.Words often get in the way to understanding more about all things, so don't let words like "religion" throw you. It's basically all about the many "ways" we can live our own life, with there being only one "way" which is truly the very best way.This mortal life isn't about God though. It's about who we, as individuals and a collective, are and what we are going to do to relieve ourselves of poverty, hunger, oppression, etc. My humanity has nothing to do with God.
Ahab Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 This mortal life isn't about God though.It's abouthow much we want to be like him, or not like him. It's a test to see if we'll do all that our Father commands us to do, and while the answer is No at some point it can also be Yes at least sometimes.It's about who we, as individuals and a collective, are and what we are going to do to relieve ourselves of poverty, hunger, oppression, etc.Right, whether or not we'll be like God and do as he teaches, or if we'll live in opposition to him and his will.My humanity has nothing to do with God.Yes it does, whether or not you live as he wants you to live. You wouldn't even exist if God didn't exist, and your humanity is simply a reflection of how much you do or don't want to be like him.
TAO Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Those are the same school of thought, if I understand what you mean. Where do you think those components we were came from, when we were "encapuslated" ? We didn't come from out of nowhere or nothing. What we are came from God.Uh, well, you see, it's a debate over whether 'intelligence' and 'spirit' are different. Some think that intelligences and spirits are the same thing, and that God created us wholely and completely in spiritual birth. Others think they are different, and that intelligences are non-created things which are encapsulated inside of a spirit through a 'spiritual birth' of some sort. And I'm sure there are also other perspectives too. I was just saying that there are a few opinions on the issue to clarify things up =). 1
TAO Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 This mortal life isn't about God though. It's about who we, as individuals and a collective, are and what we are going to do to relieve ourselves of poverty, hunger, oppression, etc. My humanity has nothing to do with God.That is your choice, of course.
TAO Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 I think what Tao is trying to present is the idea that we have always existed as entities called "intelligences" which were later put into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Parents, just as our spirit bodies enter into our physical bodies at birth. So we exist as what could be described as at least three concentric circles with the intelligence being the smallest, then the spirit, then the physical body. Yeah, that's sort of what I was trying to portray. There's a lot of different thoughts on the issue =).
TAO Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Ah, okay, that school of thought. Same general idea, though. Where do people who believe that suppose our intelligence came from, when it was "encapuslated" within a spirit? It didn't come from out of nowhere or nothing. What we are, including our intelligence, came from God. That is the kind of intelligence we are, and always have been. An "intelligence" simply refers to a particular "kind" of life or being, and the kind we are and all we have within us came from God.They would believe it was never created, much like God, in other words, always existing. God simply took the intelligences which existed beforehand, and gave them spiritual birth. That is where the thories digress; one believes all the intelligences, as well as the spirits they are in, were created with God, the other thinks they always existed, and were brough to spiritual birth through God.I don't know which one is correct, of course, and I'd be hesistant to offer an opinion with so little knowledge from God. Edited October 30, 2012 by TAO 1
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 It's not necessarily about what you know about God. It's more about what you know about yourself.This life is about our humanity and how we respond to the responsibility we must take for it. I have hope in our humanity, especially my own because it teaches me that charity, mercy and compassion are not religiously rooted per se but are inherent in all human creation.I believe this...that goodness is inherent in us. That we do the right thing because of that not because we need to follow the rules or commandments.
volgadon Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 I believe this...that goodness is inherent in us. That we do the right thing because of that not because we need to follow the rules or commandments.If ye love me...There is a parable told by the Jewish pietists of Medieval Germany. A shepherd was out watching his flocks. He turned to God and said, "I watch people's sheep in return for money, but I would watch your flocks for free because I love you."The commandments take our divine instinct, the goodness inherent in us, and direct it along the proper course. 4
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Are eternal intelligences divine? If yes, is that divinity transmitted to the spirit state (it seems the jury is still out on this one)? If yes, can spiritual divine beings (for whatever reason) surrender their divinity or have their divinity taken from them? Can divine beings sin? If divine beings cannot sin and eternal intelligences are divine, at what point did human beings, who exist in a sinful state, cease being divine?If divine beings can progress, in what sense is their divinity 'infinite'? Progress toward something entails that something is still lacking; there's is an end point or a threshold; progress up to that point can be measures - this far and no further. Infinitity, by definition, entails a fulness; there's nothing else to add as everything, any and all 'anywheres' and 'everywheres' are already encompassed and included. Edited October 30, 2012 by Spammer
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 If ye love me...There is a parable told by the Jewish pietists of Medieval Germany. A shepherd was out watching his flocks. He turned to God and said, "I watch people's sheep in return for money, but I would watch your flocks for free because I love you."The commandments take our divine instinct, the goodness inherent in us, and direct it along the proper course.I get this, but I believe others love one another, and sometimes don't love that person but do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because it's a commandment or that you want the blessings for it.
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Are eternal intelligences divine? If yes, is that divinity transmitted to the spirit state? If yes, can spiritual divine beings (for whatever reason) surrender their divinity or have their divinity taken from them? Can divine beings sin? If divine beings cannot sin and eternal intelligences are divine, at what point did human beings, who exist in a sinful state, cease being divine?Yes, or at least they started out as divine.Yes.Yes in that they have Agency. No in that divinity can't be taken from them, but it can be voluntarily given up.Yes, but once they do they cease to be divine.If we made the choice in Pre-mortal life. We wouldn't be here talking about it. We are all divine sons and daughters of the most high God. When we choose to sin we separate ourselves from God.
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Yes, or at least they started out as divine.Yes.Yes in that they have Agency. No in that divinity can't be taken from them, but it can be voluntarily given up.Yes, but once they do they cease to be divine.If we made the choice in Pre-mortal life. We wouldn't be here talking about it. We are all divine sons and daughters of the most high God. When we choose to sin we separate ourselves from God.So, it's possible for God the Father or any other divine being - right now - to choose to sin. Am I understanding you correctly?
TAO Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) So, it's possible for God the Father or any other divine being - right now - to choose to sin. Am I understanding you correctly?Yes; God can choose... but God won't choose that path... he's a much better God than that. Would he be a God to us anymore if he broke his own law of justice, which he has set down as one of the highest laws, only through repentance surpassed by mercy? No, he wouldn't be anymore. He keeps the law of justice, as part of his duties and responsiblities as the person he is. That's how much he loves us, that he does... Edited October 30, 2012 by TAO
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Yes; God can choose... but God won't choose that path... he's a much better God than that. Would he be a God to us anymore if he broke his own law of justice, which he has set down as one of the highest laws, only through repentance surpassed by mercy? No, he wouldn't be anymore. He keeps the law of justice, as part of his duties and responsiblities as the person he is. That's how much he loves us, that he does...Perfection, then, is a virtue, a character trait that God possesses and maintains through an act of will. It is not an ontological state of being.
MiserereNobis Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Perfection, then, is a virtue, a character trait that God possesses and maintains through an act of will. It is not an ontological state of being.I think this is one of the (many) differences that mainstream Christianity has with LDS theology concerning God. We believe that God's "character traits" are part of his ontology.I can understand how the doctrine of exaltation would change ontology to character traits. If God was once man, then his ontology would not have been eternally perfect, as there was a point where he was not perfect (when he was man).I know that some people criticize the LDS church for believing in a god who was once man and who therefore once sinned. Is this an accurate assessment from the LDS point-of-view? It seems to logically follow. If all men sin, and God was once a man, then God at one point sinned. I suppose the only way around it I can see is if God, when he was a man, was sinless like Jesus Christ. Or perhaps, from the LDS point-of-view, it doesn't really matter if God sinned before or not. Thanks for your insights!
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 I think this is one of the (many) differences that mainstream Christianity has with LDS theology concerning God. We believe that God's "character traits" are part of his ontology.I can understand how the doctrine of exaltation would change ontology to character traits. If God was once man, then his ontology would not have been eternally perfect, as there was a point where he was not perfect (when he was man).I know that some people criticize the LDS church for believing in a god who was once man and who therefore once sinned. Is this an accurate assessment from the LDS point-of-view? It seems to logically follow. If all men sin, and God was once a man, then God at one point sinned. I suppose the only way around it I can see is if God, when he was a man, was sinless like Jesus Christ. Or perhaps, from the LDS point-of-view, it doesn't really matter if God sinned before or not. Thanks for your insights!We believe we are all sons and daughters of the most high God. That we are made in His likeness and image. That through the Atonement of Christ we can become like Him.Our only model is Jesus the Christ. He was obviously a man. He did not sin.
Damien the Leper Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 It's abouthow much we want to be like him, or not like him. It's a test to see if we'll do all that our Father commands us to do, and while the answer is No at some point it can also be Yes at least sometimes.Right, whether or not we'll be like God and do as he teaches, or if we'll live in opposition to him and his will.Yes it does, whether or not you live as he wants you to live. You wouldn't even exist if God didn't exist, and your humanity is simply a reflection of how much you do or don't want to be like him.Inserting God where you see fit isn't helping your argument. Existence and reality is not at all about God. I have no desire to be anything like God. It's not even about doing what God commands. It is about knowing good from conception (and is nurtured) and doing good because it is part of the natural human instinct. 1
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) I think this is one of the (many) differences that mainstream Christianity has with LDS theology concerning God. We believe that God's "character traits" are part of his ontology.I can understand how the doctrine of exaltation would change ontology to character traits. If God was once man, then his ontology would not have been eternally perfect, as there was a point where he was not perfect (when he was man).I know that some people criticize the LDS church for believing in a god who was once man and who therefore once sinned. Is this an accurate assessment from the LDS point-of-view? It seems to logically follow. If all men sin, and God was once a man, then God at one point sinned. I suppose the only way around it I can see is if God, when he was a man, was sinless like Jesus Christ. Or perhaps, from the LDS point-of-view, it doesn't really matter if God sinned before or not. Thanks for your insights!I'm one who shares the traditional view. The ontological difference in how God is understood relates to the core difference between the LDS and mainstream Christian view of theosis. In the traditional view, humans are not divine by nature. They partake of the divine nature and become gods by only by grace and through the action of the Holy Spirit. God is eternally God; he is not a human being by nature, though he became human through the Incarnation and united his nature to ours. In the LDS view, as I understand it, humans are gods in embryo; God and men are human beings, are of the same species, and have a divine nature. [sidebar: this is just an FYI for those who are interested, the early church fathers who wrote about theosis (e.g., Iranaeus, Athanasius, Clement, Origin) all adhered to the traditional view about God's ontology when they said things like "God became man so that man could become God." The radical difference between traditional and LDS understandings of who God is makes me wonder why many who are LDS quote from those men when talking about the LDS understanding of theosis. Why quote from trinitarians to support what the LDS church believes?] Edited October 30, 2012 by Spammer 1
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 The conversation has turned a bit from my original intent. We're talking more about the kind of being God is than talking about being like God, but since the 2 issues are related I'm not going to jump up and down a whole lot to complain. Maybe this thread can handle both issues and still get to the point I really wanted to focus on here.I'd like to say this at the outset, though:Whatever kind of being God is we can be like him if we choose to be and if God will help us to know him so we'll know how we can be as he is. As I understand things, that was the whole point in our coming to this Earth, and why Jesus Christ came here too. To help us know him while giving us the opportunity to become like him, with his guidance. With him to help us we could solve all of the world's problems, individually, from the inside out, and the only ones who would't benefit would be the ones who didn't want to be like him, which is also now the source of the world's many individual problems.Just think of how wonderful this world would be if all of us had charity in our hearts which prompted us to help others any way we possibly could... based on charity, rather than the love of money. With that much charity in our hearts, and faith in God to guide us individually, we could be performing even more miracles than we now perform in this world. Think of having fewer health related issues we couldn't cure or prevent in the first place.Being like God would be an amazing thing. Just think of how great it would be for us all to be as he is.
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