Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 Inserting God where you see fit isn't helping your argument. Existence and reality is not at all about God. I have no desire to be anything like God. It's not even about doing what God commands. It is about knowing good from conception (and is nurtured) and doing good because it is part of the natural human instinct.Maybe it would help you if instead of using the word "God" you used the phrase "a person who is a perfectly good person".Would you honestly say you have no desire to be a person who is a perfectly good person? That's what God (our Father in heaven) is.... regardless of what kind of ontological being he is.Maybe it would also help you if instead of thinking of what God says to do as a "command", thinking of it as counsel to become as he is. It's not like he's saying: To be evil, you need to do such and such. When he's telling us to do things he's telling us to do those things because those are the things he would do, or not do, based on the kind of person he is. He wouldn't steal, so he tells us not to stel. He also wouldn't commit adultery, so he tells us not to commit adultery. All of the things he tells us to do are good, and he tells us those things because he can see that at least some people need to know what he knows.Being selfish and greedy isn't good, and he has told us not to be that way. It's the people who refuse to accept his counsel, because they don't think it is good, who are causing all of the problems in this world. This would be a much better place if everyone would simply do everything God tells us to do, even though some people don't think so, which is why we are having to learn the hard way.Obviously some people are choosing to rebel against what you call the "natural human instinct", otherwise we wouldn't be having so many problems.
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 Perfection, then, is a virtue, a character trait that God possesses and maintains through an act of will. It is not an ontological state of being.Pretty much, if I understand you correctly, and the thing about perfection is that it can go in 2 directions. A person can be either perfectly good or perfectly evil.Would you like to guess which kind of person our Father in heaven is?
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 Or perhaps, from the LDS point-of-view, it doesn't really matter if God sinned before or not. Thanks for your insights!As far as being able to become like he is, yes, it really doesn't matter if he (or we) sinned before or not. The thing that matters is whether or not we can become like he is, which may or may not include repentance depending on whether a person needs to repent. Jesus Christ didn't sin at all, so he didn't need to repent, but those of us who do sin can be totally cleansed from our sins and become as God is by doing the good things God wants us to do and repenting from our sins when we need to... otherwise we'll keep sinning and never actually stop. To just stop sinning wouldn't be enough to be like God, because God also does good things, as well as not sin.
altersteve Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 I suppose the only way around it I can see is if God, when he was a man, was sinless like Jesus Christ.This is my position.
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 This is my position.Mine too. We can all be sinless like Jesus Christ through the power of his atonement.
MiserereNobis Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Mine too. We can all be sinless like Jesus Christ through the power of his atonement.But, from the Mormon point-of-view, has anyone other than Jesus Christ been sinless?
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 But, from the Mormon point-of-view, has anyone other than Jesus Christ been sinless?A corollary question: in the LDS view, can anyone choose to keep all of the commandments all of the time in this life?
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 But, from the Mormon point-of-view, has anyone other than Jesus Christ been sinless?Do you realize we can all become sinless through the atonement of Jesus Christ? If you do, then it's just a matter of knowing who has been "saved" through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and while he hasn't given us the complete list, yet, he has told us about some people who have been... people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob...Many have been, and still are, and always will be, now, through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 A corollary question: in the LDS view, can anyone choose to keep all of the commandments all of the time in this life?Yes, we can all choose to do that, and if we slip up sometimes we can repent and then God can make all our sins go away.It's really neat how it works that way. Many people don't seem to realize how powerful the atonement of Jesus Christ really is.
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Yes, we can all choose to do that, and if we slip up sometimes we can repent and then God can make all our sins go away.It's really neat how it works that way. Many people don't seem to realize how powerful the atonement of Jesus Christ really is.What I mean is, is it possible for anyone to choose, through an act of will, to be perfect in this life, i.e., never sin at all from age 8 until death?
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 What I mean is, is it possible for anyone to choose, through an act of will, to be perfect in this life, i.e., never sin at all from age 8 until death?Yes, we can all "choose" that, and when we slip up, even after choosing to not slip up, we can repent to the point where we no longer slip up and then go on while knowing we are indeed sinless. Do you undersstand that if you're not committing any sins at a particular moment in time, and all your past sins have been forgiven, that you are indeed sinless... through the atonement of Jesus Christ?Many people have yet to understand how awesome the atonement really is. Think about it. Don't deny the power of God.
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Yes, we can all "choose" that, and when we slip up, even after choosing to not slip up, we can repent to the point where we no longer slip up and then go on while knowing we are indeed sinless.Do you undersstand that if you're not committing any sins at a particular moment in time, and all your past sins have been forgiven, that you are indeed sinless... through the atonement of Jesus Christ?Many people have yet to understand how awesome the atonement really is. Think about it. Don't deny the power of God.If someone chooses to never sin, beginning at age 8 and continuing through life until death, never having sinned, then that person lived a perfectly sinless life. Is it the LDS view that the atonement is unnecessary for such a person?
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 If someone chooses to never sin, beginning at age 8 and continuing through life until death, never having sinned, then that person lived a perfectly sinless life. Is it the LDS view that the atonement is unnecessary for such a person?Ah, now we're getting into what the atonement, or an atonement, actually is. The atonement of Jesus Christ was all about him living his life as our Father wanted him to live his life, without any sin, while also allowing others to accept his atonement as their own atonement. They would essentially be accepting his life, and way of life, as their own life and way of life.Now, if someone else were to live their life as Jesus lived his, then they would also be accepting the atonement of Jesus Christ, because it would still be our Father's will to accept the type of life Jesus lived as their own way of life, which they did.So, no, contrary to the idea that it would be unnecessary for someone without sin to accept the atonement of Jesus Christ, it would also be necessary for them just as much as for any other person. Without accepting his way of life as our own way of life, and actually living that way, it isn't possible for anyone to be saved and sinless as Jesus was, and still is.
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Ah, now we're getting into what the atonement, or an atonement, actually is. The atonement of Jesus Christ was all about him living his life as our Father wanted him to live his life, without any sin, while also allowing others to accept his atonement as their own atonement. They would essentially be accepting his life, and way of life, as their own life and way of life.Now, if someone else were to live their life as Jesus lived his, then they would also be accepting the atonement of Jesus Christ, because it would still be our Father's will to accept the type of life Jesus lived as their own way of life, which they did.So, no, contrary to the idea that it would be unnecessary for someone without sin to accept the atonement of Jesus Christ, it would also be necessary for them just as much as for any other person. Without accepting his way of life as our own way of life, and actually living that way, it isn't possible for anyone to be saved and sinless as Jesus was, and still is.If Jesus did not atone for sin, lived a perfect life, and died a natural death, would our hypothetical perfect person (and others who similarly chose to live perfect lives) be the only one besides Jesus to be exalted?
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 If Jesus did not atone for sin, lived a perfect life,Stop right there. You can't do one without the other. The atonement is all about becoming at one with God, and we do that by accepting and agreeing to live life without any sin.If Jesus had not lived that way of life he would not have lived a perfect life, but he did and that's the kind of life that he lived.... and died a natural death, would our hypothetical perfect person (and others who similarly chose to live perfect lives) be the only one besides Jesus to be exalted?If you're asking if only those who accept and agree to live life without any sin are going to be exalted, then the answer is Yes.An "exalted" life is what we call it when someone accepts and agrees to live life as Jesus did.
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Stop right there. You can't do one without the other. The atonement is all about becoming at one with God, and we do that by accepting and agreeing to live life without any sin.If Jesus had not lived that way of life he would not have lived a perfect life, but he did and that's the kind of life that he lived.If you're asking if only those who accept and agree to live life without any sin are going to be exalted, then the answer is Yes.An "exalted" life is what we call it when someone accepts and agrees to live life as Jesus did.My question is whether atonement for sins is necessary for someone who chooses to be perfectly sinless from age 8 until death? Is atonement for sin required for someone not in need of atonement for sin ?
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 My question is whether atonement for sins is necessary for someone who chooses to be perfectly sinless from age 8 until death? Is atonement for sin required for someone not in need of atonement for sin ?You're saying "atonement for sins" without seeming to realize what you're talking about. See my explanation above, again.It's not as if you can accept the atonement of Jesus Christ and then live out of harmony with it. The atonement is a way of life, his way of life, and it's required for anyone who wants to live as he lives.
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 You're saying "atonement for sins" without seeming to realize what you're talking about. See my explanation above, again.It's not as if you can accept the atonement of Jesus Christ and then live out of harmony with it. The atonement is a way of life, his way of life, and it's required for anyone who wants to live as he lives.Is it not LDS teaching that the atonement, the payment of the penalty, paying the debt, meeting the demands of justice, occurred in the Garden of Gethsemene, when Jesus bled from every pore?
Ahab Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 Is it not LDS teaching that the atonement, the payment of the penalty, paying the debt, meeting the demands of justice, occurred in the Garden of Gethsemene, when Jesus bled from every pore?Yes, that is the teaching of the Church, but that isn't all of what the atonement is about. The atonement isn't only about the moment when he took on all of our sins. The atonement is about being "at one" with God, and if it hadn't been for the way Jesus lived all of his life up to that point in the garden of Gethsemene it wouldn't have done any good for him to take on all of our sins. The power of the atonement is the power of a perfect life, a life without any sin, and that is the life we must accept when we accept the atonement of Jesus Christ. It then becomes our will to do the will of our Father in heaven, which was also the will of Jesus, which is what it takes to live a "perfect" life.To think someone could live a "perfect" life and not accept the atonement of Jesus Christ is just bad thinking. The two are one and the same, and his is a perfect example.
Spammer Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Yes, that is the teaching of the Church, but that isn't all of what the atonement is about. The atonement isn't only about the moment when he took on all of our sins. The atonement is about being "at one" with God, and if it hadn't been for the way Jesus lived all of his life up to that point in the garden of Gethsemene it wouldn't have done any good for him to take on all of our sins.The power of the atonement is the power of a perfect life, a life without any sin, and that is the life we must accept when we accept the atonement of Jesus Christ. It then becomes our will to do the will of our Father in heaven, which was also the will of Jesus, which is what it takes to live a "perfect" life.To think someone could live a "perfect" life and not accept the atonement of Jesus Christ is just bad thinking. The two are one and the same, and his is a perfect example.I never asked whether, in the LDS view, someone could live a perfect life and not accept the atonement. I was trying to ask whether, in LDS teaching, whether Jesus's suffering in Gethsemane was also for the perfectly sinless and in what way (if such human beings can exist in the LDS view).
Ahab Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 ...I was trying to ask whether, in LDS teaching, whether Jesus's suffering in Gethsemane was also for the perfectly sinless and in what way (if such human beings can exist in the LDS view).Yes, it is also for the perfectly sinless, as it gives a perfect example of what it means to be perfectly sinless, and by accepting and agreeing to that kind of life anyone can be perfectly sinless.
Spammer Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Yes, it is also for the perfectly sinless, as it gives a perfect example of what it means to be perfectly sinless, and by accepting and agreeing to that kind of life anyone can be perfectly sinless.Ok, thanks for the clarification. So, by extension, it seems that to be perfect, we must also agree to that same kind of life that Jesus manifested in his atonement - i.e., to suffer, bleed, and die on someone else's behalf, just like Jesus did. We must be savior's, too. Only then will we be truly perfect. Is that your point? Or does perfection entail only doing what God commands and if God doesn't command us to atone for someone else's sins, then we don't have to do it?
Ahab Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 Ok, thanks for the clarification. So, by extension, it seems that to be perfect, we must also agree to that same kind of life that Jesus manifested in his atonement - i.e., to suffer, bleed, and die on someone else's behalf, just like Jesus did. Yes, we must also agree to live without committing sin in our lives, but we don't necessarily need to suffer or bleed or die as he did. That suffering was caused by the people who sentenced him to die in that way, and we can all choose to life our lives as he did, without sin and in compliance with the will of our Father in heaven, without necessarily going through all of that suffering.We must be savior's, too.No, no, no, you're getting hung up on the "proxy" component instead of focusing on thinking of yourself living the kind of life he was living.All you have to do is to be willing to life your life without any sin, repenting from your sins if you commit any sins. If you do that, his atonement will cover for you. If you manage to live your life totally without sin as he did, though... admittedly a very disciplined way of life... then you should still appreciate and accepet the kind of life Jesus lived, which would also be the way you had lived, even if you didn't act as a proxy for anyone else. Only then will we be truly perfect. Is that your point?You'll be perfect when you live your life doing the will of our Father in heaven, when his will is also your will. That's my main point.Or does perfection entail only doing what God commands and if God doesn't command us to atone for someone else's sins, then we don't have to do it?Commands, huh. Does it have to be a command before you will do it? How about if we say it entails living your life as our Father wants you to live it. That would be perfect even if he didn't command you to live in that way. And yes, you can do that without acting as the proxy for someone else, who then chooses to accept what you did for them as they then live that kind of life for themselves.
Spammer Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Thanks for the clarification of your views. Just out of curiosity, I wonder what proportion of Mormons agree that intelligences are divine and that it's possible to choose to be perfect starting at 8 yrs old until death? I hear conflicting things on these points.
TAO Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Perfection, then, is a virtue, a character trait that God possesses and maintains through an act of will. It is not an ontological state of being.If he maintains that perfection forever, there is hardly a difference ;-).
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