Children'S Testimonies At Testimony Meeting

[MormonMason]

That is a Psalm, not a prayer. It is a song to be sung not prayed. Psalms that are also prayers are labeled as such in the Hebrew text. Psalm 102, for example, is a prayer. It is so labeled. Notice the difference between Psalm 136 and Psalm 102?

[3DOP]

Don't pray a song? Don't sing a prayer?

That is a Psalm, not a prayer. It is a song to be sung not prayed. Psalms that are also prayers are labeled as such in the Hebrew text. Psalm 102, for example, is a prayer. It is so labeled. Notice the difference between Psalm 136 and Psalm 102?

Mason. Hello.

No praying of songs, huh? No praying of Psalms? That is your position?

[MormonMason]

Don't pray a song? Don't sing a prayer?

Mason. Hello.

No praying of songs, huh? No praying of Psalms? That is your position?

My position is that the Psalm you quoted was not a prayer but that Psalm 102 is a prayer. Don't make of my position more than it is. Now, if you think that Psalm 136 should be prayed, have you a scripture where praying Psalm 136 is enjoined and commanded? Any direct words or teachings of Jesus to that effect? Any commands from Jesus to pray other peoples' prayers and to assemble them into books for people to repeat as often as desired for a desired effect?

[3DOP]

Mormon Mason. Hi again. Sorry if my question seemed like an accusation.

"Don't make of my position more than it is."

My apologies.

My position is that it is difficult to argue that Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs are not prayers. So it is okay if I sing Psalm 136 as long as I don't pray?

I concede that not everything my religion embraces is based on direct words, teachings, and commands from Jesus that are recorded in Scripture. Do you hold that the true religion must limit itself to direct words, teachings, and commands of Jesus?

Edited October 24, 2012 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

The Rosary is intimately connected with the Psalms. Said, prayed or "sung" properly, the Rosary is a meditation on the events in Scripture and Tradition which show us the path from humility to exaltation as the Holy Family lived it. Simply put, it shows us the way to heaven. "Our Lady's Psalter", as it is sometimes called, consists of 150 Hail Marys to match the 150 Psalms. When St. Dominic received the Holy Rosary from heaven, priests and religious prayed each of the Psalms weekly in the Breviary. For souls who are called to vocations in the world, the Rosary was given as a way of uniting our daily thoughts, prayers, words, and deeds with those whose prayers are ascending hourly from the cloister and monastery.

[mfbukowski]

And I don't believe that sense of timelessness that can come with the hypnotic effect of repeating mantras or prayers until one achieves that state is the sort of connection God desires us to have with him when we pray, which to me is about communication as opposed to creating a certain state of mind or 'mindlessness' so to speak.

The person who taught me meditation years ago believed there is a very real distinction between meditation with mantras and other sorts- those relying on breathing for example.

He believed that repeating mantras caused hypnosis- that one was literally programming oneself to achieve a definite result, as is the case for example in many of those who believe that "affirmations" will enable one to achieve what is repeatedly affirmed, or as in Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism which relies on chanting the same mantra over and over. When I first looked into Nichiren Shoshu, I was told I could "chant for anything you want" even such mundane things as making parking tickets "go away". At that, I decided to go away (from them) instead.

But anyway, my meditation teacher taught that instead of having a mantra one should be linked to changes in one's body and mind, and clear the mind and keep out all thoughts so that those thoughts which enter may be noted and examined later; however to do this and remain awake and alert, one must be carrying on a simple physical activity while clearing one's mind. This activity might be being aware of your breathing or observing the sensations of blood flowing through the fingers (hand hanging loosely at the side) while clearing one's mind. He believed that such meditation actually erased the effects of the "natural man" being hypnotized by the world to be not an agent unto one's self, but allowing oneself to be acted on by the world.

Elder Bednar has repeatedly discussed the distinction between being one who acts as opposed to one who is acted upon, and it is my believe that one should always allow oneself to be governed by the spirit within each of us, as opposed to being programmed by someone else's mantra or ideas.

I believe that chanting or repeating mantras does just that- it effectively programs us on even an unconscious level with someone else's words and ideas.

On the other hand, as you note, repeated ordinance-type prayers enable us to learn them my heart and therefore reflect on their sacred character, as well as ponder the symbolism on many levels. I have nearly memorized the endowment, as I know others here have as well, and it is amazing how one is able to ponder it and make associations between different parts of it by having it "right there" and present to the mind whenever one wants to do so. You don't need to look it up, (you can't anyway!) you don't need to write it down (you can't anyway! ) it is just there ready for "inspection" and study as needed.

But to me, repeating mantra type prayers simple substitutes someone else's words and ideas for what should come from inside each of us, from that font of living water which should be bubbling up from inside all of us. It in effect "re-routes the plumbing" and puts some one else's words into our minds.

And of course I think the practice of whispering in children's ears is similar. Let them grow up and bear testimonies as moved on by the spirit - but let it come from inside them and not from someone else's lips.

We need to learn to act and not be acted upon in spiritual matters if in nothing else.

[mfbukowski]

duplicate

Edited October 24, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Don't pray a song? Don't sing a prayer?

While kneeling by my bed at night, I have never once sung a hymn instead of praying. Can you see the difference?

Maybe you don't, but that is probably our difference and never the twain shall meet

[mfbukowski]

Do you hold that the true religion must limit itself to direct words, teachings, and commands of Jesus?

If that means that all official Doctrine is found in the Standard Works, the answer would be "YES".

[mfbukowski]

The Rosary is intimately connected with the Psalms. Said, prayed or "sung" properly, the Rosary is a meditation on the events in Scripture and Tradition which show us the path from humility to exaltation as the Holy Family lived it. Simply put, it shows us the way to heaven. "Our Lady's Psalter", as it is sometimes called, consists of 150 Hail Marys to match the 150 Psalms. When St. Dominic received the Holy Rosary from heaven, priests and religious prayed each of the Psalms weekly in the Breviary. For souls who are called to vocations in the world, the Rosary was given as a way of uniting our daily thoughts, prayers, words, and deeds with those whose prayers are ascending hourly from the cloister and monastery.

That is the entire problem.

You need to pray for yourself.

[3DOP]

I don't have an opinion about children's testimonies. I have never attended an LDS meeting of any kind. I don't understand the culture. ZLMB and MD&DB under its various titles over the years is almost my sole exposure to LDS thought. I guess have read about a dozen LDS books. I don't know enough to be critical of what you believe and do. I think you'll find that I have a pattern of disappearing (or chatting in social hall) until an occasion comes where someone is analyzing an aspect of my faith. I would like to help those who want to understand the Catholic faith in its most favorable light. I think I have stayed all of these years because I am persuaded that there are many LDS like that here.

I don't mean that I think many LDS are inclined to become Catholic although I hope. But I think a lot of you know how critics of any faith tend to exaggerate and distort. I can disbelieve the LDS Restoration, while striving to understand it more perfectly and hoping that in His mercy, God can and will do what is necessary to save the Mormon of good heart who is truly seeking Him. I want us all to be in heaven together. I don't want to think you are worshipping devils if I can help it. I want to hope that I can see why (from my perspective), Mormonism can be a mistake that good and intelligent people make. And I am so persuaded.

However, I believe in Hell, and I will, I believe, if I should be happy enough to avoid going to Hell, rejoice in God's good judgment when those who hate God and their neighbor end up there.

I admit that it is difficult to think that those who habitually paint the faith of another in its worst light is loving their neighbor. (I am thinking of mfbukowski here. KIDDING! Heh. Gotya didn't I buk?) I am aware of the need to say that something is wrong when it conflicts with what is true. But as far as I can tell, children's testimonies seem harmless at worst. They are at an age when they should not be deciding for themselves against what their parents believe. The time comes all too quickly when that day is past. But initially children are supposed to believe what their parents teach them.

In my opinion, those who criticise the Rosary for violating the precept against "vain repetition" fail to appreciate how it is used in both public and private devotion. Miserere Nobis offered some material which you might not accept. But until one is intimately familiar with the different ways the Rosary has been used through the centuries, it doesn't seem like there should be much objection to the explanations. It doesn't make you Catholic just because you can see that the Rosary has more about it than perhaps you had once thought. You can be a former Catholic who was bored at a Rosary at a funeral when you were a teenager. That doesn't qualify you to assume that it was the same experience for St. Pius V or St. Jean Vianney or Padre Pio or even for Miserere Nobis and me. Maybe the Rosary IS susceptible to violating the precept mentioned. I would be willing to discuss that possibility.

But even such a distracted dork as myself has had an occasional rich experience praying Our Lady's Psalter. Maybe I should say the Rosary is especially for distracted dorks. It is pretty hard not to get something out of each decade. But many of the saints endorse it as well. And for a Catholic, that carries a weight that makes the criticism of outsiders seem ever so light. And no one is saying that the Rosary replaces a morning offering, mental prayer, ejaculatory prayers throughout the day, and an evening examination of conscience with acts of faith, hope, love, and contrition for our sins. We cannot get to heaven if we don't pray. His disciples asked Jesus how. Prayer is a battle. It is a fight to the death. The devil fears it, and the flesh despises it and discourages us. But we must crucify the flesh so to speak, letting it cry out if we must. We must get out of bed a half hour early if we must. But we have to meet God in prayer or the fire once kindled that makes us love Him and our neighbors will go out. We will become beguiled by the world and begin to lose our hatred of sin. He promises that He stands at the door knocking. Prayer is how we open that door.

To those who practice it with love, the Holy Rosary is a simple and beautiful way of filling our minds with good and virtuous meditations followed by reflection on our own behaviors with resolutions to do better. To say that it is vanity is impossible for me to believe.

3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

But even such a distracted dork as myself has had an occasional rich experience praying Our Lady's Psalter. Maybe I should say the Rosary is especially for distracted dorks.

I am a distracted dork, too. Perhaps that is one reason why I love the Rosary as well

But many of the saints endorse it as well. And for a Catholic, that carries a weight that makes the criticism of outsiders seem ever so light.

Indeed. It is perhaps one of the most endorsed practices in Western Christianity.

And no one is saying that the Rosary replaces a morning offering, mental prayer, ejaculatory prayers throughout the day, and an evening examination of conscience with acts of faith, hope, love, and contrition for our sins.

This is an excellent point. There are many ways of prayer, not just one or two. It is also important to point out that set prayers do NOT preclude or exclude prayers in our own words. The two are not mutually exclusive.

We cannot get to heaven if we don't pray. His disciples asked Jesus how. Prayer is a battle. It is a fight to the death. The devil fears it, and the flesh despises it and discourages us. But we must crucify the flesh so to speak, letting it cry out if we must. We must get out of bed a half hour early if we must. But we have to meet God in prayer or the fire once kindled that makes us love Him and our neighbors will go out. We will become beguiled by the world and begin to lose our hatred of sin. He promises that He stands at the door knocking. Prayer is how we open that door.

This is beautiful and true. Thank you for writing it.

To those who practice it with love, the Holy Rosary is a simple and beautiful way of filling our minds with good and virtuous meditations followed by reflection on our own behaviors with resolutions to do better. To say that it is vanity is impossible for me to believe.

When done properly, it is indeed a beautiful and edifying practice that brings us closer to Christ.

Edited October 25, 2012 by MiserereNobis

[3DOP]

Misere Nobis,

My son recommended a book for me this summer. I had been making excuses for not setting aside time for mental prayer for years. The book is called The Soul of the Apostolate. The author, a French priest, argues strenuously against the idea of an active life vs. a life of meditation. Action taken without prayers is without a soul. It is dead. If we want to succeed in any spiritual endeavour, it is folly to think we can succeed without prayer. Anyway, this book which was so motivating to me was said by St. Pius X, to be his continuous bedside reading in his later years.

My son also gave me a handout with outlines for six methods of mental prayer. Since St. Francis deSales is my confirmation saint, I chose the method he taught which comes I discovered from his Introduction to the Devout Life. I had read it many years before, and ignored his advice. The good saint, knowing our frailties and the difficulties of an active vocation, even offers advice on what to do when we stumble or just can't do it. God is so good and we are so slow to respond to His goodness. Well I have been anyway. Three other methods are the Carmelite, the Sulpician, and the Capuchin. The other two are from St. Alphonsus Liguori and St. Ignatius Loyola. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. But it has been so helpful to me to choose one.

I can't resist, I am going to give you the outline for St. Francis:

Before the Meditation----Preparation of the Material. It is counselled to use books of meditation. (I have been using the missal and texts from the Mass for the day with Dom Gueranger's comments. I might change that though.)

I. Immediate Preparation

A. Exercise of the Presence of God

1) God present in all things

2) God present in one's soul

3) Our Lord Jesus Christ who from heaven views all things and considers particularly those who pray

4) Our Lord imagined at our side or considered as present in the Holy Sacrament

B. Invocation (begging God's help and aid in prayer)

1) Act of adoration

2) Invocation of God

3) Invocation of one's guardian and of all the saints

C. Proposition of the mystery or composition of the place when the subject is sensible.

II. Body of the meditation

A. Exercise of the Intelligence: considerations and reflections on the mystery

B. Exercise of the will: affections, colloquy, resolutions

III.Conclusion

A. Thanksgiving

B. Oblations of oneself to God

C. Prayer of request (then a Pater, Ave)

After the meditation it is recommended to spend a few moments making a "spiritual bouquet"--some principal thought to be considered throughout the day. After this recollection, a quiet passage to the often hectic duties of our state in life. If we are losing our patience during the day, getting angry, feeling frustration or anxiety, even if we have started with a good mediation, it might stem from failure to make this effort to carry the fruits of our mediation with us throughout the day. Not to be forgotten is to put into practice the resolutions made. Sometimes 30 minutes can go by quickly. I am sure others who don't wait until they are in the mid-50's to develop habits of recollection will progress more quickly.

As I typed this, I realize I have gotten very lazy in some areas. Assuredly, some of my so-called prayers probably are vain. Why am I often eager to be finished, hastening through exercises with the potential for a delight far above anything I am going to do at work that day? I am a fool. But by God's grace I still hope! I'll confess my sins and I believe He'll forgive my infidelities and help me more and more to be faithful. St. Teresa of Avila famously said that prayer is nothing more than a conversation with our God. I do better when I remember that.

Pray for me.

3DOP

Edited October 25, 2012 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

"Spiritual Bouquet" loosely translated for Mormons: A promise to pray for someone.

It's a really nice phrase I think- like each prayer is a flower in a bouquet.

[Stargazer]

"Talkimony" is another word I have heard used to describe these, particularly if running longer than 15 minutes.

I remember a story about how, in the time of Brigham Young, there was the brother who asked Brother Brigham if he could give a talk in the meeting that was just coming up, and BY told him no, there was no time for another talk. The brother pestered Brother Brigham for some time about this, and finally he gave in enough to say that he could give the opening prayer, but that was all. The brother agreed. After the opening song, this brother went up and gave his prayer, except that it was forty or fifty minutes long, and was clearly the talk the brother had wanted to give, in prayer format. But BY sat there reverently with the rest of the congregation throughout the "prayer". When it was over, BY simply stood up and concluded the meeting.

I don't know why, but what you said just hit a nerve and I had to share.

[Lightbearer]

This OP brought to mind the following:

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

(New Testament | Luke 18:16-17)

Personally I am not offended by children bearing testimony of the truth, even with "help" from their parents. It is not indoctrination as some would suppose and it is not an unfeeling ritual. I think it helps the children overcome their natural fear of speaking in church. I do not believe anyone should be forced to bear their testimony, but also I think it is a little much for some members and leaders to criticize parents for trying to help those who may be shy (not without a testimony). Then wonder why as youths they will not get up when they are older. I do not believe children should "parrot" every word, but I do believe if the spirit is willing (in the child) he should not be required to stand alone until he or she is ready to do so.

I gained my testimony from the teachings of my parents. Although my parents did not "wisper in my ear" they encouraged me and taught me the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and even as a 4 year old child I would kneel beside my father as he blessed the sacrament in our tiny branch which met in a members home. While some would think it "embarassing" for me to do that in the presence of a non-member, it meant a lot to me and my growth in the Gospel.

[Storm Rider]

This OP brought to mind the following:

Personally I am not offended by children bearing testimony of the truth, even with "help" from their parents. It is not indoctrination as some would suppose and it is not an unfeeling ritual. I think it helps the children overcome their natural fear of speaking in church. I do not believe anyone should be forced to bear their testimony, but also I think it is a little much for some members and leaders to criticize parents for trying to help those who may be shy (not without a testimony). Then wonder why as youths they will not get up when they are older. I do not believe children should "parrot" every word, but I do believe if the spirit is willing (in the child) he should not be required to stand alone until he or she is ready to do so.

I gained my testimony from the teachings of my parents. Although my parents did not "wisper in my ear" they encouraged me and taught me the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and even as a 4 year old child I would kneel beside my father as he blessed the sacrament in our tiny branch which met in a members home. While some would think it "embarassing" for me to do that in the presence of a non-member, it meant a lot to me and my growth in the Gospel.

Nope, not the point that was being made. Fast & Testimony meeting is exactly that; it is not a parent-child training day. A parent can teach and aid a child to bear a testimony meeting at family home evening all they want; it is just not appropriate for F&T meeting.