In Retrospect, Was The Raising Of The Bar A Good Thing?

[Scott Lloyd]

I know I'm very late with this, but this excellent column by Daniel Peterson pretty much shoots down the notion of Cobalt and Miserere Nobis that the concept of theosis or deification or eternal exaltation as taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith was one of the later or "Nauvoo doctrines."

It also documents the doctrine as a teaching in the Doctrine and Covenants (prior to the Nauvoo period) and the Book of Mormon, meaning it is part of the scriptural canon and we are not backing away from it as a Church.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[volgadon]

I know I'm very late with this, but this excellent column by Daniel Peterson pretty much shoots down the notion of Cobalt and Miserere Nobis that the concept of theosis or deification or eternal exaltation as taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith was one of the later or "Nauvoo doctrines."

It also documents the doctrine as a teaching in the Doctrine and Covenants (prior to the Nauvoo period) and the Book of Mormon, meaning it is part of the scriptural canon and we are not backing away from it as a Church.

Terryl Givens made that point rather forcibly, as did Samuel Brown in his "In Heaven as It Is on Earth."

Edited December 4, 2012 by volgadon

[Duncan]

This mission gets its first 18 yr old missionary next month, he apparently turns 19 in July. So as a WML in a ward that last year has had 4 new missionaries trained here, maybe he'll come here but who's to say. Should be interesting. This mission (as everyone everywhere since time began) already has had some concerns with the maturity of its 19, 20 yr olds, hopefully this young fella will be a good thing!

[Scott Lloyd]

This mission gets its first 18 yr old missionary next month, he apparently turns 19 in July. So as a WML in a ward that last year has had 4 new missionaries trained here, maybe he'll come here but who's to say. Should be interesting. This mission (as everyone everywhere since time began) already has had some concerns with the maturity of its 19, 20 yr olds, hopefully this young fella will be a good thing!

President Monson made the point in general conference that where 18-year-old missionaries have already been called from countries outside the United States and Canada, they have been just as effective as the young men who were called after they turned 19.

[Duncan]

President Monson made the point in general conference that where 18-year-old missionaries have already been called from countries outside the United States and Canada, they have been just as effective as the young men who were called after they turned 19.

true! I just wonder though that the already 18yr old missionaries are called from areas where the Church is in the minority and they'll hopefully be mature. I hope the 18 yr olds from areas in the US will be just as mature. In other words is a 18yr old Mormon from say Lehi, Utah just as mature as a Mormon from Italy? I guess time will tell!

[Pandorian]

Raising the Bar probably was a good thing, except for one aspect...

Every mission had to have it's goof off who broke all the rules and still baptized like crazy. Got to be missing those natural born 'salesmen' Then the rest of us who tried our best to follow the rules struggled getting anyone into the waters.8^)

We had one guy a few years back I will call Don Juan in our ward who must have baptized 20 to 30 single females into our Ward within the 3 months he was there. Of course none of them are active now. I guess they were converted to the Elder and not to the gospel.

[Pandorian]

true! I just wonder though that the already 18yr old missionaries are called from areas where the Church is in the minority and they'll hopefully be mature. I hope the 18 yr olds from areas in the US will be just as mature. In other words is a 18yr old Mormon from say Lehi, Utah just as mature as a Mormon from Italy? I guess time will tell!

It will be just like before. Some will be very mature, and others will be trying to sneak off to dance clubs and bring beer into the apartment. Or, with the raising of the bar, maybe not so much of this, but I am sure their will be workers and 'leaks' (that's what they called them on my mission)

[3DOP]

Raising the Bar probably was a good thing, except for one aspect...

Every mission had to have it's goof off who broke all the rules and still baptized like crazy. Got to be missing those natural born 'salesmen' Then the rest of us who tried our best to follow the rules struggled getting anyone into the waters.8^)

We had one guy a few years back I will call Don Juan in our ward who must have baptized 20 to 30 single females into our Ward within the 3 months he was there. Of course none of them are active now. I guess they were converted to the Elder and not to the gospel.

I can understand going on a mission. I can further understand refusing to go on a mission. But why would someone agree to go and then be disruptive and disobedient? I believe what you are saying, but such grave dedication and irreverent flippancy at the same time seem difficult to reconcile. Are they unafraid of maybe losing God's favor? Is it just a party to such missionaries? It doesn't look like much of a party from my vantage point. Are missionaries not sometimes objects of contempt for what they do? The world, even if it chuckles, admires such dedication. Missionaries drinking beer on a mission? I just can't imagine why young men who give up two years of their lives for such a selfless cause could on the other hand be so selfish?

What's next, the armed robber who exhorts the bank teller to be a Christian? I am not suggesting that armed robbery is equal in gravity with having a beer. I do not even believe beer drinking is sinful. But the LDS missionary thinks it is. I guess we all know of those who think to mix deliberate sin with the message of the Gospel (however we understand it). The evangelical on TV who has a mistress while he seems so earnest. The Catholic priest who deliberately uses his office to fulfill illicit desires. Ultimately, I don't think such people can have much faith. They enjoy whatever position to which they ascended. They have an appearance of success. But there can be no sense of God's peace to him who blatantly disobeys his own message. Much better off before God, in my opinion, is Jean Valjean, (Les Miserables) Hugo's wretched thief who cries out in anguish at the recognition of his interior emptiness and moral misery. At least he has a clear vision while the successful ones are truly blind.

Though all things are possible with God, it is written that it may be difficult for the rich man to enter heaven. What about Don Juan? It isn't the beer or the girls that is worrisome, but the evident lack of fear and aversion to sin and disobedience. If fear is the beginning of wisdom (never mind love at this point), then such missionaries, elders, priests, and evangelists are not even beginners, let alone masters. Where neither love nor fear are present, they presume to teach and lead. Like an ox to the slaughter, they foolishly lumber along with no thought for what awaits them. I am not suggesting how a beer drinking LDS missionary should be disciplined, but they should be led to a sense of how incongruous is missionary work with disobedience, and hopefully before they ever even think about being a missionary.

[blueadept]

I can understand going on a mission. I can further understand refusing to go on a mission. But why would someone agree to go and then be disruptive and disobedient? I believe what you are saying, but such grave dedication and irreverent flippancy at the same time seem difficult to reconcile. Are they unafraid of maybe losing God's favor? Is it just a party to such missionaries? It doesn't look like much of a party from my vantage point. Are missionaries not sometimes objects of contempt for what they do? The world, even if it chuckles, admires such dedication. Missionaries drinking beer on a mission? I just can't imagine why young men who give up two years of their lives for such a selfless cause could on the other hand be so selfish?

The problem is that we live in a 'checklist' society where parents stress the importance of their children completing an important item. I've met quite a few Catholic kids who went through their Confirmation for all the wrong reasons but the parents could say that they did their duty in raising their kid.

I've met a few LDS faithful who stressed the importance of their boys to complete this 'checklist'. 1) Be an Eagle Scout, 2) Go on a Mission and 3) Get sealed in the Temple. IMHO, not all young LDS men should go on a mission but that is not what is stressed in the LDS culture.

[Scott Lloyd]

I can understand going on a mission. I can further understand refusing to go on a mission. But why would someone agree to go and then be disruptive and disobedient? I believe what you are saying, but such grave dedication and irreverent flippancy at the same time seem difficult to reconcile. Are they unafraid of maybe losing God's favor? Is it just a party to such missionaries? It doesn't look like much of a party from my vantage point. Are missionaries not sometimes objects of contempt for what they do? The world, even if it chuckles, admires such dedication. Missionaries drinking beer on a mission? I just can't imagine why young men who give up two years of their lives for such a selfless cause could on the other hand be so selfish?

What's next, the armed robber who exhorts the bank teller to be a Christian? I am not suggesting that armed robbery is equal in gravity with having a beer. I do not even believe beer drinking is sinful. But the LDS missionary thinks it is. I guess we all know of those who think to mix deliberate sin with the message of the Gospel (however we understand it). The evangelical on TV who has a mistress while he seems so earnest. The Catholic priest who deliberately uses his office to fulfill illicit desires. Ultimately, I don't think such people can have much faith. They enjoy whatever position to which they ascended. They have an appearance of success. But there can be no sense of God's peace to him who blatantly disobeys his own message. Much better off before God, in my opinion, is Jean Valjean, (Les Miserables) Hugo's wretched thief who cries out in anguish at the recognition of his interior emptiness and moral misery. At least he has a clear vision while the successful ones are truly blind.

Though all things are possible with God, it is written that it may be difficult for the rich man to enter heaven. What about Don Juan? It isn't the beer or the girls that is worrisome, but the evident lack of fear and aversion to sin and disobedience. If fear is the beginning of wisdom (never mind love at this point), then such missionaries, elders, priests, and evangelists are not even beginners, let alone masters. Where neither love nor fear are present, they presume to teach and lead. Like an ox to the slaughter, they foolishly lumber along with no thought for what awaits them. I am not suggesting how a beer drinking LDS missionary should be disciplined, but they should be led to a sense of how incongruous is missionary work with disobedience, and hopefully before they ever even think about being a missionary.

Your comments are well taken.

I will just state that beer-drinking missionaries would be extremely rare -- unheard of in my own experience.

There are some offenses that would be grounds for missionaries to be immediately sent home. I definitely think that would be one.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

Your comments are well taken.

I will just state that beer-drinking missionaries would be extremely rare -- unheard of in my own experience.

There are some offenses that would be grounds for missionaries to be immediately sent home. I definitely think that would be one.

I had a companion who used to drink nyquil to give him a special zip to his day

Edited December 6, 2012 by Duncan

[pogi]

There are children running around the Philippines named Elder. Hopefully raising the bar will curb this trend.

[Nathair/|\]

There was a guy in my mission who stored his metabolic waste in bottles, then poured it out a seventh floor window.

[Duncan]

There was a guy in my mission who stored his metabolic waste in bottles, then poured it out a seventh floor window.

where did you serve?

[Nathair/|\]

where did you serve?

Arkansas Little Rock. This was in inner city Memphis.

[Duncan]

Arkansas Little Rock. This was in inner city Memphis.

oh neat! brother in laws bro served there maybe mid 2000's, and a sister (my former pilates teacher) I home teach is from Jonesboro

[Nathair/|\]

oh neat! brother in laws bro served there maybe mid 2000's, and a sister (my former pilates teacher) I home teach is from Jonesboro

Tell her she has my sympathy.

I was there in 96-98.

[Calm]

Arkansas Little Rock. This was in inner city Memphis.

My dad was one of the pilots of the transport planes that flew in the101st Airborne to escort the children to school. It seems it might be the highlight of his military carrer as he got to Korea after the ceasefire. My mother was not unhappy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Little-rock-afb-c130s.jpg/300px-Little-rock-afb-c130s.jpg