Inheritors Of The Telestial Kingdom

[swfarnsworth]

Without reading the other responses so far, my answer would be: "Those who, regardless of whether or not the Gospel (i.e., the principles by which remission for sins is obtained) was presented to them in life, rejected the Gospel in the Spirit World and were therefore unrepentant and had to suffer for their own sins in hell before being able to approach God at the Judgment Bar."

Also, a contradiction I have been thinking about lately is that Earth, in its present state, is supposedly a telestial world, yet at the same time the telestial kingdom is supposed to be beyond human comprehension in glory.

[CV75]

Also, a contradiction I have been thinking about lately is that Earth, in its present state, is supposedly a telestial world, yet at the same time the telestial kingdom is supposed to be beyond human comprehension in glory.

I think the uses of these terms for glory, condition, reckoning, etc. are fairly flexible and relative.

Edited October 9, 2012 by CV75

[manofthecloth]

Is not progression portrayed well enough in that other place of worship we cannot do on Sunday? Doesn't it start in paradise with a choice of how we are to gain knowledge? Once the choice has been made do we not start out in the lone and dreary world in which we now live? Section 76's explanation of Telestial inheritors may as well be talking about all of us now with our differing degrees of brightness (like the stars) and our different beliefs and understandings. Hmm...when I depart this life, am I not destined for the waxing and waning Terrestrial state of man known as the Millennium? Isn't the Millennium like walking (or progressing) into a higher level of understanding and light? And does not everyone know where the Celestial Kingdom will be. In Gospel Doctrine 101 we can say, "why the Celestial Kingdom will be right here on earth when it is transformed into a Urim and Thummim." Everyone knows where the Millennium will be because it's right here on earth! Is not the Millennium terrestrial in its glory? So why do we draw the "Plan of Salvation" chart like we do? It reminds me of a heaven and hell construct with a number of intriguing other aspects to make it a Mormon plan. As I see the chart, it's either go directly to the Celestial Kingdom or go to hell. And who made that chart in the first place? Did it spring from our protestant background? If the earth now is in a Telestial state so is the state of its inhabitants just as its inhabitants will be Celestial in the long-distant future. The earth's state seems to move on with or without me. I can't comprehend the glory of this earth now because it has much more going for it than the corporeal obvious manifestations it is showing me in my Telestial state. The earth is on the path on want to stay.

[Verum]

Sorry, the title of this post compelled me to come here immediately since I felt it was call to me directly.

[teddyaware]

Can't wait to see what is going to have wait until you return from work!

Sorry to disappoint Tacenda, but though I just got back from work somewhat late, I now have to drive into New York City (Manhattan) to pick up my wife who just arrived back from Rome. So our 'rendezvous with doctrinal destiny' will have to wait a bit. But this I do promise you, when I get around to disclosing what it is I've discovered (with God's help, I believe), you will likely find it very worth your while. So off I go with my Yorkie, Copernicus, at my side to pick up mommy in the big scary city, where the drivers think the FDR Drive is a Grand Prix race course .., Pray for me.

[Rob Osborn]

Is not progression portrayed well enough in that other place of worship we cannot do on Sunday? Doesn't it start in paradise with a choice of how we are to gain knowledge? Once the choice has been made do we not start out in the lone and dreary world in which we now live? Section 76's explanation of Telestial inheritors may as well be talking about all of us now with our differing degrees of brightness (like the stars) and our different beliefs and understandings. Hmm...when I depart this life, am I not destined for the waxing and waning Terrestrial state of man known as the Millennium? Isn't the Millennium like walking (or progressing) into a higher level of understanding and light? And does not everyone know where the Celestial Kingdom will be. In Gospel Doctrine 101 we can say, "why the Celestial Kingdom will be right here on earth when it is transformed into a Urim and Thummim." Everyone knows where the Millennium will be because it's right here on earth! Is not the Millennium terrestrial in its glory? So why do we draw the "Plan of Salvation" chart like we do? It reminds me of a heaven and hell construct with a number of intriguing other aspects to make it a Mormon plan. As I see the chart, it's either go directly to the Celestial Kingdom or go to hell. And who made that chart in the first place? Did it spring from our protestant background? If the earth now is in a Telestial state so is the state of its inhabitants just as its inhabitants will be Celestial in the long-distant future. The earth's state seems to move on with or without me. I can't comprehend the glory of this earth now because it has much more going for it than the corporeal obvious manifestations it is showing me in my Telestial state. The earth is on the path on want to stay.

Exactly! I have long pained to see others with this view. I find it rather odd that the plan of salvation as presented in the temple is so very different than what is taught in sunday school. The temple is correct in that salvation is not realized until one passes through the two lower kingdoms first. It is rather clear that the temple clarifies that this earth right now is "the telestial kingdom"

More later....good stuff!

[zerinus]

Exactly! . . .

Exactly wrong! The temple symbolism cannot be translated into a "plan of salvation" model as you want to portray it. According to D&C 88, those who are destined for a celestial glory will have already received a portion of that glory in this life, and likewise for all the other kingdoms of glory:

D&C 88:

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

You do not "progress" through the different degrees of glory. You are pre-assigned the degree of glory which you live for in this life before you get there. The temple symbolism has a different meaning than how you want to portray it.

Edited October 10, 2012 by zerinus

[Rob Osborn]

Exactly wrong! The temple symbolism cannot be translated into a "plan of salvation" model as you want to portray it. According to D&C 88, those who are destined for a celestial glory will have already received a portion of that glory in this life, and likewise for all the other kingdoms of glory:

D&C 88:

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

You do not "progress" through the different degrees of glory. You are pre-assigned the degree of glory which you live for in this life before you get there. The temple symbolism has a different meaning than how you want to portray it.

Can you be sure? The temple endowment is the plan of salvation. The temple shows us how to return back to Heavenly Father in his kingdom. There is no mistake that as part of that journey, we pass through both the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms before coming into the celestial kingdom. If one were to define exactly where the telestial kingdom is, there is only one place that is officially recognized by the church. And where is that? It is right here- this earth is the telestial kingdom.

[zerinus]

Can you be sure?

Of course! The endowment ceremony portrays the path that a celestial person takes in his journey to a celestial glory. He is born into a telestial environment where he experiences sorrow and temptation, and is tested and tried to see if he is worthy of the next stage of his journey, which is the Millenium. The Millenium is a terrestrial stage of preparation reserved exclusively for those who have passed the first stage on their journey to the celestial. Those who have failed the first stage will not be resurrected to enjoy the blessings of the Millenial reign. And the final stage is at the end of the Milenium where everyone will be permanently assigned to the degree of glory they had lived for in this life.

Edited October 10, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

Sorry to disappoint Tacenda, but though I just got back from work somewhat late, I now have to drive into New York City (Manhattan) to pick up my wife who just arrived back from Rome. So our 'rendezvous with doctrinal destiny' will have to wait a bit. But this I do promise you, when I get around to disclosing what it is I've discovered (with God's help, I believe), you will likely find it very worth your while. So off I go with my Yorkie, Copernicus, at my side to pick up mommy in the big scary city, where the drivers think the FDR Drive is a Grand Prix race course .., Pray for me.

Ummm, where have I heard that before!

[teddyaware]

After arriving home from my excursion to NYC, I was too tired to begin to finish what I started here -- although it looks like many of you are "anxiously engaged" in the cause of increased Gospel knowledge without input from me. Even so, sometime during this evening I will place on this thread the first installment of my insights vis-avis the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom. I will disclose my thesis in stages, in an attempt to build a logical case. Though I believe what I'm going to reval here is true, the thesis will be presented on here only as speculative theology. And this because -- unless I'm mistaken -- I have not heard any General Authority, as yet, teach what I'm going to reveal.

See you later...

P.S. Zerinus, your insights, thus far, on this thread are most interesting...

[Glenn101]

Without having any scriptures with me I would tell another person that the telestial kingdom is for those who dies unrepentant and do anot accept the Savior in this life nor the next and thus lose their claim on the Atonement. They will inherit the Celestial Kingdom after they have suffered for their unrepented of sins themselves, after having gone through an agony to what Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemanee.

I do not agree that we are living in the telestial Kindom here on earth. The Telestial Kingdom is a kingdom of glory. Life on earth is not.

Glenn

[manofthecloth]

According to D&C 88, those who are destined for a celestial glory will have already received a portion of that glory in this life, and likewise for all the other kingdoms of glory:

You do not "progress" through the different degrees of glory. You are pre-assigned the degree of glory which you live for in this life before you get there. The temple symbolism has a different meaning than how you want to portray it.

Zerinus is correct when the old model of the "Plan of Salvation" chart is applied. Pre-assigning me to a kingdom of glory from my short time in the Telestial World is kind of like the old sectarian notion of pre-destination (or fate) in my mind. 70+ years is far too short. I have almost no understanding of the eternities which stretch behind me much less the eons ahead. Just how long does it take for one to be tried and tested to be like a father who gained his knowledge like I am obtaining it? Can my tests all take place in one short Telestial life? Is the Millennium a 1,000 year vacation (vacation from the test) just before my grand entry into Heaven (Celestial) or Hell (all the rest)? Why wouldn't the Millennium be a useful time for testing me? Why did Hyrum Smith say the Terrestrial Kingdom waxes and wanes? Why, honestly, is the endowment ceremony presented in the order and manner it is presented if it is not to reveal a gift of knowledge about ourselves and our path of progression.

[Rob Osborn]

Of course! The endowment ceremony portrays the path that a celestial person takes in his journey to a celestial glory. He is born into a telestial environment where he experiences sorrow and temptation, and is tested and tried to see if he is worthy of the next stage of his journey, which is the Millenium. The Millenium is a terrestrial stage of preparation reserved exclusively for those who have passed the first stage on their journey to the celestial. Those who have failed the first stage will not be resurrected to enjoy the blessings of the Millenial reign. And the final stage is at the end of the Milenium where everyone will be permanently assigned to the degree of glory they had lived for in this life.

There is only one path of salvation. All who repent and are baptized enter through the same gate and are on the same path. How are the spirits in prison saved from that hell? Through obedience to the saving laws and ordinances of the holy temple. There is no other way. Here-

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C138:58-59)

"House of God" mentioned in verse 58 refers specifically to the temple. All who repent and accept Christ are offered every and all blessings of the temple. When we do vicarious work for the dead in temples, we not only do it for those who were righteous, but for all, including those in hell who change their ways, repent and accept Christ. Yes, even for those who rejected it in mortality but who then accepted it in hell/spirit prison.

Tell me, how is anyone saved from spiritual death eternally(salvation)? Through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

[urroner]

There is always a loss of doctrinal accuracy when people try to express things in their own words rather than using the language that the scriptures themselves employ---no matter how well-intentioned they might be. For this reason I am not interested in defending doctrine as taught in secondary sources, but only as it is taught in the standard works.

Z-man, even putting words to truths corrupts those truths. Some truths cannot be described in spoken words, much less written words. That is a problem mortals have had to deal with since forever, especially when it comes to truths spoken of or written at one time and then hearing or reading them in a future date. Is the context of the original communication understood, especially what the communicator was trying to convey.

You say that you are only interested in defending doctrine as it is only taught in the standard works, but how do you know that you are defending truth as it really is rather than how you perceive it to be. That is the rub for me. When somebody, like you, me, or even the great Dr. Dan Peterson, defends the truth and try to explain it, does that person not become a secondary source for others and are not our perceptions of the gospel and all truths often framed and made by all different degrees of sources, primary, secondary, tertiary, or whatever.

Now, back to the thread.

As far as it comes to who goes where after the resurrection, I have a belief that it isn't one of judgement coming from God. I don't see God, Jesus, or anybody but our own little selves telling us where to go.

I don't see life as a test that we either pass or fail. All those who pass, go to the Celestial Kingdom, and the teacher's pets get to go to the top of the kingdom, while all those who didn't past muster, get sent to places not so nice and the teacher ignores us forever after that. To me, that seems a little authoritarian. I don't looe at life like it's a school where we end up passing or failing the bar, I look at it like it's a school where we learn whom we really are and gain all sorts of experiences in it. Good experiences come from good judgement which comes from bad experiences which come from bad judgement.

The time people progress the most is when mistakes are made and they seek to not repeat those mistakes. If mistakes were never made, why would we ever want to change. That is why I don't see Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden as a good thing. They would never change since they weren't making any mistakes. The biggest advancements in the space program occurred after mistakes were made, mistakes like Apollo 1 and the Challenger explosion.

I have ADHD and it has played a big role in my life. I always tended to be very impulsive and did lots of silly, unexplainable things in the past, I still do occasionally, and I thought I didn't have the right stuff to be whom the Lord wanted me to be. I was constantly failing too many tests. I was told to go and pray for help from the Lord and to make mighty prayers, but I couldn't pray for more than a couple of minutes at the most. I still have that problem. My prayers only last for a couple of minutes. Any longer and my mind, even if I pray vocally, wanders off on rabbit trails. This bothered me a lot, but a short time ago, I realized that if a couple of minutes was the best I could do, then I'd make those the best couple of minutes I could. My prayers don't change much night to night, but they are sincere and I hope the Lord doesn't get too bored with me.

When it comes to who goes where, whether it's the Telestial, Terrestial, Celestial, or even to Outer Darkness (Texas), I don't think the Lord assigns us to any of those places, points a finger at one of three doors, and in a booming voice for all to hear and all to fear, commands us to go through the chosen door. I believe that we will know where we belong and we will go there ourselves. I don't see people going before Jesus as he sits in the Judgement Seat, damning people to a lower kingdom or forcing them to go the a higher kingdom and after receiving judgement, a surprise look will come upon the people's faces when they hear the judgement. We will know where we belong and we will simply go there.

What is laid out in the scriptures is just a description of what type of people will go where because they will choose to do so, not because God will find them either innocent or guilty and pass upon them an eternal judgement.

If I had to judge a person who is like me when I was young, I'm an old geezer now, I would seriously be pretty rough on that person, but I have realized since then that because of my ADHD and, because of it, my awesome ability to be impulsive and not being able to relate to many social protocols, why I did many of the things that I did and I also realize that because of those "awesome" experiences, I am now able to be more understanding of others and not be so quick to judge them.

I realized a long time ago, I wasn't cut out to be a bishop, but I am an awesome first counselor in my ward's Sunday School presidency, just ask the teenagers in my ward. I would be a totally lousy member of the Stake High Council, but I have been an elders quorum president who got the quorum to do 70% home teaching. I would be a lousy Stake President, but the kids in the ward's Primary love me to pieces, especially when I bring them occasional treats or direct music in Primary.

So, really, I look at life as a grand learning experience, and when we are free from our mortal body, with all its failings and problems, we will truly realize what we did and why we did it, and we, without any decree from God or anybody else, will go where we belong and do what we need to do, wherever or whatever that place is or those things are. We are told not to judge others and we are commanded to forgive others, but we can only love others as we love ourselves, we can do no more.

[Rob Osborn]

Without having any scriptures with me I would tell another person that the telestial kingdom is for those who dies unrepentant and do anot accept the Savior in this life nor the next and thus lose their claim on the Atonement. They will inherit the Celestial Kingdom after they have suffered for their unrepented of sins themselves, after having gone through an agony to what Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemanee.

I do not agree that we are living in the telestial Kindom here on earth. The Telestial Kingdom is a kingdom of glory. Life on earth is not.

Glenn

"Glory" is light and truth. We do have glory, or should we say " light and truth" here on this earthly kingdom. The glory of this earth is the Holy Ghost.

[urroner]

Zerinus is correct when the old model of the "Plan of Salvation" chart is applied. Pre-assigning me to a kingdom of glory from my short time in the Telestial World is kind of like the old sectarian notion of pre-destination (or fate) in my mind. 70+ years is far too short. I have almost no understanding of the eternities which stretch behind me much less the eons ahead. Just how long does it take for one to be tried and tested to be like a father who gained his knowledge like I am obtaining it? Can my tests all take place in one short Telestial life? Is the Millennium a 1,000 year vacation (vacation from the test) just before my grand entry into Heaven (Celestial) or Hell (all the rest)? Why wouldn't the Millennium be a useful time for testing me? Why did Hyrum Smith say the Terrestrial Kingdom waxes and wanes? Why, honestly, is the endowment ceremony presented in the order and manner it is presented if it is not to reveal a gift of knowledge about ourselves and our path of progression.

It's like a line in the song "Jet Airliner" by Steve Miller, "you've got to go through hell to get to heaven."

BTW, it's an awesome song.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyQ1znMc3og

[Rob Osborn]

Why is it that St. John in his Revelations never mentions multiple places for the saved to dwell? Why does he mention only this earth as the place where all the saved go? Why does he mention that the only other place to dwell besides this earth is outer darkness?

It's because it is the truth. What is Christ doing during the millennium? He is perfecting the kingdom (singular) to present to the Father. All who thus accept Christ are the very ones he is perfecting to present to the Father spotless. At that great last day when all are thus resurrected we will be judged. All men will be at that point be separated into two categories- the saved and the damned. The saved will all receive eternal life as sons and daughters in His kingdom while all those found on the left hand ( the unrepentant) will be cast out into outer darkness with the devil and his angels.

[urroner]

Why is it that St. John in his Revelations never mentions multiple places for the saved to dwell? Why does he mention only this earth as the place where all the saved go? Why does he mention that the only other place to dwell besides this earth is outer darkness?

Was Revelation, the name is singular, suppose to contain a detailed description of the afterlife? If one was to think that, one would probably be badly mistaken?

[Tacenda]

Z-man, even putting words to truths corrupts those truths. Some truths cannot be described in spoken words, much less written words. That is a problem mortals have had to deal with since forever, especially when it comes to truths spoken of or written at one time and then hearing or reading them in a future date. Is the context of the original communication understood, especially what the communicator was trying to convey.

You say that you are only interested in defending doctrine as it is only taught in the standard works, but how do you know that you are defending truth as it really is rather than how you perceive it to be. That is the rub for me. When somebody, like you, me, or even the great Dr. Dan Peterson, defends the truth and try to explain it, does that person not become a secondary source for others and are not our perceptions of the gospel and all truths often framed and made by all different degrees of sources, primary, secondary, tertiary, or whatever.

Now, back to the thread.

As far as it comes to who goes where after the resurrection, I have a belief that it isn't one of judgement coming from God. I don't see God, Jesus, or anybody but our own little selves telling us where to go.

I don't see life as a test that we either pass or fail. All those who pass, go to the Celestial Kingdom, and the teacher's pets get to go to the top of the kingdom, while all those who didn't past muster, get sent to places not so nice and the teacher ignores us forever after that. To me, that seems a little authoritarian. I don't looe at life like it's a school where we end up passing or failing the bar, I look at it like it's a school where we learn whom we really are and gain all sorts of experiences in it. Good experiences come from good judgement which comes from bad experiences which come from bad judgement.

The time people progress the most is when mistakes are made and they seek to not repeat those mistakes. If mistakes were never made, why would we ever want to change. That is why I don't see Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden as a good thing. They would never change since they weren't making any mistakes. The biggest advancements in the space program occurred after mistakes were made, mistakes like Apollo 1 and the Challenger explosion.

I have ADHD and it has played a big role in my life. I always tended to be very impulsive and did lots of silly, unexplainable things in the past, I still do occasionally, and I thought I didn't have the right stuff to be whom the Lord wanted me to be. I was constantly failing too many tests. I was told to go and pray for help from the Lord and to make mighty prayers, but I couldn't pray for more than a couple of minutes at the most. I still have that problem. My prayers only last for a couple of minutes. Any longer and my mind, even if I pray vocally, wanders off on rabbit trails. This bothered me a lot, but a short time ago, I realized that if a couple of minutes was the best I could do, then I'd make those the best couple of minutes I could. My prayers don't change much night to night, but they are sincere and I hope the Lord doesn't get too bored with me.

When it comes to who goes where, whether it's the Telestial, Terrestial, Celestial, or even to Outer Darkness (Texas), I don't think the Lord assigns us to any of those places, points a finger at one of three doors, and in a booming voice for all to hear and all to fear, commands us to go through the chosen door. I believe that we will know where we belong and we will go there ourselves. I don't see people going before Jesus as he sits in the Judgement Seat, damning people to a lower kingdom or forcing them to go the a higher kingdom and after receiving judgement, a surprise look will come upon the people's faces when they hear the judgement. We will know where we belong and we will simply go there.

What is laid out in the scriptures is just a description of what type of people will go where because they will choose to do so, not because God will find them either innocent or guilty and pass upon them an eternal judgement.

If I had to judge a person who is like me when I was young, I'm an old geezer now, I would seriously be pretty rough on that person, but I have realized since then that because of my ADHD and, because of it, my awesome ability to be impulsive and not being able to relate to many social protocols, why I did many of the things that I did and I also realize that because of those "awesome" experiences, I am now able to be more understanding of others and not be so quick to judge them.

I realized a long time ago, I wasn't cut out to be a bishop, but I am an awesome first counselor in my ward's Sunday School presidency, just ask the teenagers in my ward. I would be a totally lousy member of the Stake High Council, but I have been an elders quorum president who got the quorum to do 70% home teaching. I would be a lousy Stake President, but the kids in the ward's Primary love me to pieces, especially when I bring them occasional treats or direct music in Primary.

So, really, I look at life as a grand learning experience, and when we are free from our mortal body, with all its failings and problems, we will truly realize what we did and why we did it, and we, without any decree from God or anybody else, will go where we belong and do what we need to do, wherever or whatever that place is or those things are. We are told not to judge others and we are commanded to forgive others, but we can only love others as we love ourselves, we can do no more.

Holy Cow, I like how you think!

[CV75]

Why is it that St. John in his Revelations never mentions multiple places for the saved to dwell?

While he focuses on the one place where the exalted saints will dwell, there is reason to believe that there are other kingdoms:

20:12-15 speaks of “the dead, small and great” who are judged “according to their works.” Abraham 3:19 uses this principle as well (that each of us is greater or lesser than another). These verses also indicate there are books, each an individual record of a person’s unique works, which is compared with the book of life. The “second death” must likewise take the form of a unique and accordant outcome for each person not found in the book of life. Chapter 21 then speaks of the Lamb’s book of life, which serves as the roster of saints dwelling in the celestialized earth.

[CV75]

So, really, I look at life as a grand learning experience, and when we are free from our mortal body, with all its failings and problems, we will truly realize what we did and why we did it, and we, without any decree from God or anybody else, will go where we belong and do what we need to do, wherever or whatever that place is or those things are. We are told not to judge others and we are commanded to forgive others, but we can only love others as we love ourselves, we can do no more.

Sorry I missed this earlier--I think this is in line with D&C 88:32.

[urroner]

Sorry I missed this earlier--I think this is in line with D&C 88:32.

verse 33 as well.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[manofthecloth]

What is Christ doing during the millennium? He is perfecting the kingdom (singular) to present to the Father. All who thus accept Christ are the very ones he is perfecting to present to the Father spotless.

I love the imagery of Christ perfecting me in order to present me to father clean. It reminds me of D&C 133:50-52 "And his voice shall be heard: I have trodden the wine-press alone, and have brought judgment upon all people; ...I sprinkled upon my garments, and stained all my raiment; for this was the day of vengeance which was in my heart. And now the year of my redeemed is come; and they shall mention the loving kindness of their Lord, and all that he has bestowed upon them according to his goodness, and according to his loving kindness, forever and ever.

I think among other clues D&C 133:53-54 puts the verses in context with the Millennium because "In all their afflictions [my afflictions] he was afflicted. And the angel of his presence saved them; and in his love, and in his pity, he redeemed them, and bore them, and carried them all the days of old; Yea, and Enoch also, and they who were with him; the prophets who were before him; and Noah also, and they who were before him; and Moses also, and they who were before him;

Enoch and those with him are are almost always in association with the Millennium, isn't that right?

Hmm..I wonder why the Lord would need to cast me off to "outer darkness" unless the status of "Son of Perdition" is rightly and obviously earned by me. I thought I can only get that moniker by denying the Holy Ghost (whatever that means). Wouldn't the Lord have another, more loving way, of dealing with my un-progressed soul? What if the rule is that I just can't advance until I am ready? What if the pointer is always beckoning me up no matter where I start? When I got here to this life, I had a built-in desire to be good especially when my parents did some explaining. What happens to me if I am not willing to change or not aware enough to change in the right ways? Could I think about what to do while I am cooling my heels in Spirit Prison awaiting judgement while the rest of you progress and carry on in the Millennium? At judgement may I ask to be assigned to a new family (like Adam and Eve's family)? Maybe I could be adopted by one of you fortunate ones who make it through the Millennium on the path which grants you a new name and Celestial glory. Maybe you'll have room for a guy like me to try again and since I never made it past the Telestial step, I'll still be telestial. Why wouldn't support of you in building a new kingdom constitute a new eternity, a new birth, a new resurrection?

I know we are fond of the presently constituted "Plan of Salvation" chart found in my missionary discussion book of 35 years ago, but maybe we should make it look something like a three-step staircase with me deciding what to do at the bottom as I negotiate the first treacherous step. The second step might have the Savior of mankind beckoning me to follow and my Father at the top.

[urroner]

We need to be careful of teaching progression between kingdoms.