Inheritors Of The Telestial Kingdom

[CV75]

Well...to your first clever reply, Adam's father was Father. Right? In other words, Adam's parents were not a trees. Secondly, to your deft other point, the Savior was certainly an adult personage. Interestingly, JS seemed to tell us in the King Follett sermon that our elder brother had already gone through a probation before coming to this life with us. In other words, he was already God. I would think a God can do more materially and spiritually than can a mere Telestial-world man like me when death comes. The Savior was indeed resurrected in an adult personage form and by taking up his body. As for the others who were yielded from the grave...this is an interesting idea to contemplate. Is it possible the others were born in a Terrestrial realm and subsequently had grown up to be present where their Telestial body was entombed to stand with our Lord on his day of Resurrection? Inside Enoch's band there certainly would have been many mothers available for such a role. Think how many generations could be living in that place now. Wouldn't you rather be there than here? This all may sound far afield from the topic, but I am of the firm opinion we are in and experiencing "The" Telestial Kingdom now. We then are inheritors of that kingdom. Thinking...."for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space," (D&C 88:37) - So what kingdom am I in now if not the Telestial?

I’m really not sure who Adam’s literal, biological father was. I do agree that Heavenly Father was at least his figurative father by bringing him into paradise by organizing or overseeing the organization of Adam’s body. Also, He was his father in instructing him in paradise.

I don’t put too much stock in the documentation we have of the King Follett Sermon, but I do agree that Jesus, and all of us, passed through a probation in the premortal world where He became God while we did not, but we all chose and defended a side. We developed enough talent and spiritual light (a fund of knowledge, truth, light, intelligence, etc.) to pass the first estate and bring them with us into this estate.

Jesus’ passing His probation (perhaps better put, fulfilling His mortal mission) on earth resulted in His being given power over death and hell in the flesh and in the “inseparably connected” spirit and element—full power over the resurrection, judgment and exaltation of all mankind.

The idea that the spirits of dead people from this telestial sphere are reborn into a terrestrial sphere such as the City of Enoch that was taken up, and that this constitutes a resurrection, is interesting. Are you saying that other people are similarly reborn into a celestial sphere, or are reborn into a celestial sphere after they die in (or “changed in the twinkling of an eye” from) a terrestrial / Millennial sphere? I suppose any method could be used to effectuate a resurrection. This would allow resurrected people to be reborn into successively more glorious kingdoms until the perfect day—but if their element and spirit were inseparably connected the first time, how could they die again in order to be resurrected into a higher kingdom?

I am intrigued with the idea that unrepentant spirits and resurrected people will suffer for their own sins and that this translates into a lesser kingdom of glory after the Judgment. It brings to mind that each of us has been qualified by Christ, by virtue of His atonement, to become exalted beings. Where He is more intelligent than us all combined, He could accomplish this. His account or fund of intelligence (glory) is sufficient to cover the needs for all of us. We enter this world with an account/fund of our own (in line with paragraph 2 above) and even perhaps a “line of credit” dependent on the grace of Christ. When we use these funds to pay for our own sins, we haven’t sufficient remaining intelligence (glory) to enter into our exaltation. The debt has been paid, but we have given up our fund of knowledge/intelligence/glory and must settle for a lesser kingdom.

[manofthecloth]

The idea that the spirits of dead people from this telestial sphere are reborn into a terrestrial sphere such as the City of Enoch that was taken up, and that this constitutes a resurrection, is interesting.

Being born to a mother is something I can understand. "Poof" I'm resurrected makes no sense. A translated being (twinkled) makes sense a little less.

Are you saying that other people are similarly reborn into a celestial sphere, or are reborn into a celestial sphere after they die in (or “changed in the twinkling of an eye” from) a terrestrial / Millennial sphere?

In that other place of worship not on Sunday, I learn about about being "clothed" with immortality on the morning of the First Resurrection which clearly takes place in the Millennium. Hyrum S said the Terrestrial Kingdom waxes and wanes like the moon. I wonder if we enter the Millennium (the Terrestrial time of the earth) where Christ stands to mediate for us with the object of learning to be as He is. To be in His presence is to be like him (D&C 130:1, 1 John 3:2). Does the waxing and waning have to do with a kind of enrollment in that Millennial school? What if I can't actually be Terrestrial when my opportunity comes? To keep a body alive forever probably takes amazing knowledge and discipline. If I am born to a Terrestrial mother with the gift of a Terrestrial body am I ready to do what it takes to go the distance and be found worthy to enter the highest kingdom when the earth is transformed? What if I can't do it? Can I ask to be assigned to a new Telestial Kingdom somewhere in Father's vast system? Maybe then I could have another go at it.

I suppose any method could be used to effectuate a resurrection. This would allow resurrected people to be reborn into successively more glorious kingdoms until the perfect day—but if their element and spirit were inseparably connected the first time, how could they die again in order to be resurrected into a higher kingdom?

The King Follett sermon puts the idea of probation (and resurrection) on its head because it's now possible to truly have no beginning and no end of probations in different spheres. How does one become immortal as God and then condescend to be born of Mary? Was Christ's time on earth a probation for him notwithstanding he was already perfected as a God? We are all nodding yes, but do we understand it? Was his probation different than ours because he was a higher order being? How did he become a higher order being? How are we ourselves higher and lower order beings as we step out of the womb and are compared to one another. President Hinckley, for example, was a higher order being than I am, but I am comforted to realize he was right here with me on earth. The process of progression must be a very long and drawn-out drama.

[Rob Osborn]

John in his Revelations does not mention "outer darkness" at all; but he does mention that all will be judged according to their "works;" which implies that they will be assigned to different rewards.

He does mention the lake of fire and brimstone it being the second death. All who are not found in book of life arein second death with devil and angels.

[CV75]

Being born to a mother is something I can understand. "Poof" I'm resurrected makes no sense. A translated being (twinkled) makes sense a little less.

In that other place of worship not on Sunday, I learn about about being "clothed" with immortality on the morning of the First Resurrection which clearly takes place in the Millennium. Hyrum S said the Terrestrial Kingdom waxes and wanes like the moon. I wonder if we enter the Millennium (the Terrestrial time of the earth) where Christ stands to mediate for us with the object of learning to be as He is. To be in His presence is to be like him (D&C 130:1, 1 John 3:2). Does the waxing and waning have to do with a kind of enrollment in that Millennial school? What if I can't actually be Terrestrial when my opportunity comes? To keep a body alive forever probably takes amazing knowledge and discipline. If I am born to a Terrestrial mother with the gift of a Terrestrial body am I ready to do what it takes to go the distance and be found worthy to enter the highest kingdom when the earth is transformed? What if I can't do it? Can I ask to be assigned to a new Telestial Kingdom somewhere in Father's vast system? Maybe then I could have another go at it.

The King Follett sermon puts the idea of probation (and resurrection) on its head because it's now possible to truly have no beginning and no end of probations in different spheres. How does one become immortal as God and then condescend to be born of Mary? Was Christ's time on earth a probation for him notwithstanding he was already perfected as a God? We are all nodding yes, but do we understand it? Was his probation different than ours because he was a higher order being? How did he become a higher order being? How are we ourselves higher and lower order beings as we step out of the womb and are compared to one another. President Hinckley, for example, was a higher order being than I am, but I am comforted to realize he was right here with me on earth. The process of progression must be a very long and drawn-out drama.

“Poof” could make sense to someone who was suddenly healed of an affliction, or who suddenly saw the light, had an epiphany, or changed their character as the result of a spiritual experience. I felt like “poof"--a new man!--upon my conversion over 40 years ago, and I've had similar advances intermittenty ever since, as most progress is barely perceptible. But I wouldn’t be surprised if our resurrection involved our element and spirit being somehow re-formed through the stages of human development and even a physical birth process of sorts, just not more than once. Then again, the “twinkling of an eye” kind of resurrection cannot be discounted either.

Would you mind providing a link to Hyrum Smith’s “waxes and wanes” quote and the entire talk if possible—all I can find online are snippets to from sources that don’t seem very trustworthy. On the surface, it seems to me to convey that the terrestrial type of person can be inclined more toward righteousness (a celestial type) or toward iniquity (a telestial type), and that there are innumerable degrees of righteousness just as there are innumerable degrees of waxing and waning. Also, during our mortal probation, we may take three steps forward and two back, etc. I think progress between these kingdoms is a function of mortality (which includes our time before resurrection).

I’m also wondering if Hyrum pointed out that there is variation among the brightness of the stars as well (D&C 76:81, 98), representing various degrees within the telestial kingdom, or various degrees of telestial personality. D&C 131:1 of course teaches of three levels within the celestial kingdom. The more I think of it, Hyrum was probably explaining the levels or degrees within the terrestrial experience. A full reading of his full speech might help address that.

As has been pointed out, the imagery of telestial-terrestrial-celestial can be used in any number of teaching and testifying settings in addition to any literal applications. So yes, we progress all along the spectrum of the plan of salvation and can use these terms to describe various aspects and methods of progress.

But it is conceivable that there is a time between resurrection and judgment, and to wonder what the glory of the resurrected body might enjoy during the pre-judgment period. Perhaps those who are resurrected early might be granted time to become more perfect and avoid suffering for their own sins, receive the grace of Christ and in due time be judged worthy of exaltation. Those who have to wait until the last resurrection have less time granted and so are destined to suffer, miss out on grace and be denied exaltation. Or maybe in their long wait for resurrection have repented sufficiently to require less post-resurrection perfection activity. This seems to over-emphasize the principle of earning our salvation. Or are you saying all resurrected beings have all the time they need to become perfect before they are judged (which seems to over-emphasize the principle of grace in our salvation)?

I’m sure those of the first resurrection are laboring as one with the Lord and serving those in need throughout the Millennium. If they haven’t yet been judged, I’m sure this contributes toward their perfection and a favorable outcome at the judgment bar. If those of the first resurrection include those of a terrestrial nature, then the waxing and waning imagery could certainly apply—but I don’t think they are included, according to D&C 76: 64. And I don’t think we get another go at mortality, but you never really know—I just don’t have any basis for faith in that principle.

I can equate the idea of “endless progress” with “endless probation” in that it must be very trying at times for God to continue His eternal round. Not because He isn’t perfectly perfect, but because He perfectly empathizes with each and every one of us in our struggles. He likewise has plenty of opportunity to rejoice, and not only empathize with our exaltation but have the perfect satisfaction of saying “I told you so!” So this to me is the nature of no beginning and no end.

I do not think that Jesus had to become immortal as God in order to condescend to be born of Mary. I think Jesus was Spirit as God (D&C 93:9) and then condescended (humbly and lovingly conformed to the Father’s will) to be born of Mary and carry on His mission.

I think that Christ's time on earth was a probation for Him notwithstanding He was already perfected as a Spirit God. My understanding is that He was tried according to His level of development (Mosiah 3:7) and that He received grace for grace (D&C 93:12). His probation was different in that it was the probation of a God, but it had all the same elements we face (Matthew 4:1-11), and He certainly suffered for all our sins and failed probations. I believe He became a higher order being” through his obedience in the premortal life, just as are higher order beings in a relative sense (Abraham 3:18-19). I agree that President Hinckley compared to me is a good example of a “higher order being” and I’m sure even he would assert that he yet had a long way to go. And I think “progression” takes on different meanings the further along we go.

Edited October 11, 2012 by CV75

[zerinus]

He does mention the lake of fire and brimstone it being the second death. All who are not found in book of life arein second death with devil and angels.

John's "lake of fire and brimstone" and "second death" are not the same as what the scriptures call "outer darkness". See here.

[MormonMason]

He does mention the lake of fire and brimstone it being the second death. All who are not found in book of life arein second death with devil and angels.

The context of the passage makes clear that this is what takes place after the final judgment of those who come forth in the second resurrection. For them, there are only two potential places to go.

[MormonMason]

I like D&C 76:112 very much because it makes Rob Osborn's point so well. "And they, [telestial inheritors] shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. In my current state I can be a servant of the Most High, and I may not go where God and Christ dwell even worlds without end. It still fits.

It does not really fit Osborn's view. I suggest reading his views very carefully to see what it is that he really is advocating before you align yourself with said views.

Hmm...Please elaborate more. Where on the approved "plan of salvation" chart is hell found? How do the scriptures associate the Telestial with hell?

I could not care less where it is or isn't on some over-simplified chart. Where you will find it is in Doctrine and Covenants 76:

81 And again, we ^asaw the glory of the ^btelestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the ^cglory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the ^atestimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who ^adeny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to ^ahell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the ^adevil until the ^blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the ^cLamb, shall have finished his work.

The reference in verse 85 above couples and ties it together with the latter verses of chapter 20 of Revelation mentioned above.

I like that idea very much. This Telestial world is part of the Telestial Kingdom. Is it like a system of Telestial Kingdoms spreading across father's created universe. Are Father's worlds and kingdoms interconnected in some way? Is one Telestial Kingdom about the same as another on a different planet?

I am sure that they are interconnected in some way. I am not sure that there would of necessity be sameness across all worlds. Only this world would crucify their Lord. That ought to tell you something about the differences between this world and the others.

[Rob Osborn]

It does not really fit Osborn's view. I suggest reading his views very carefully to see what it is that he really is advocating before you align yourself with said views.

I could not care less where it is or isn't on some over-simplified chart. Where you will find it is in Doctrine and Covenants 76:

The reference in verse 85 above couples and ties it together with the latter verses of chapter 20 of Revelation mentioned above.

I am sure that they are interconnected in some way. I am not sure that there would of necessity be sameness across all worlds. Only this world would crucify their Lord. That ought to tell you something about the differences between this world and the others.

My view, in light of section 76 concerning the telestial is that where we are now, we cannot go where God now is at this point where they are-worlds without end. When JS wrote this vision it is my strong opinion that he was just shown the various stages of this earth and misintwrpreted it to where he assumed it was three separate worlds after resurrection and judgment.. more to come later...goood stuff.

[Rob Osborn]

Also, there are some solid clues in section 76 that leads me to the belief thatthings are not what they appear to be- some anomalies.

[manofthecloth]

My view, in light of section 76 concerning the telestial is that where we are now, we cannot go where God now is at this point where they are-worlds without end. When JS wrote this vision it is my strong opinion that he was just shown the various stages of this earth and misintwrpreted it to where he assumed it was three separate worlds after resurrection and judgment.. more to come later...goood stuff.

I thought that was your view.

[manofthecloth]

It does not really fit Osborn's view. I suggest reading his views very carefully to see what it is that he really is advocating before you align yourself with said views.

You are right...I shouldn't have assumed. Please bear with me as I learn the rules.

I could not care less where it is or isn't on some over-simplified chart. Where you will find it is in Doctrine and Covenants 76: The reference in verse 85 above couples and ties it together with the latter verses of chapter 20 of Revelation mentioned above.

I take it you don't like the chart either. What seems evident about Section 76 is how much it can apply to the right-here-and-now. If "Telestial" has meaning in this world now and future states of some members of mankind, we could be sharing space with past under-performers who couldn't muster a Terrestrial advancement. So who is my neighbor? When I see him, I have no idea of his background. He could be a princely son of God like Gordon Hinckley, or he could be a Ted Bundy. For the one, this world is a launching place to a higher order and for the other it's a date with judgement to be thrust down to Hell. In my minds eye I can see a recycling of un-advance-able souls coming back and back (returning again D&C 88:32) while those who are ready move on up What does it really mean to receive a "fullness" of Telestial glory? It sounds like something I haven't done yet. If I receive a fullness of the glory available in this Telestial world, am I ready for the next? What a fascinating place this is!

84 These are they who are thrust down to ^ahell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the ^adevil until the ^blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the ^cLamb, shall have finished his work.

As you may have guessed by now, I am trying to see how this world may be connected to the so-called future Telestial Kingdom because I don't think there is any whit of difference. Your [MormonMason's] view seem more defensible than mine in light of our traditions and the way we talk about our doctrine. However, I propose that whatever I want to believe cannot be contradicted by scripture. I also propose that every attribute of a Telestial inheritor is relate-able to us here in the Telestial world.

[Rob Osborn]

My case and theory behind section 76 of the D&C-

Up until this point in the early restored church, Mormonism in its yet infant state was very similar to its Protestant background of its early members and believers. There was a strict dichotomy of the traditional heaven and hell, saved or damned, etc, etc.. And it was upon this point that Joseph Smith asked the paramount question of rewards of heaven concerning those who were more diligent versus less diligent. He was then shown the vision concerning this matter as it pertained to the just and the unjust.

JS saw in vision Lucifer make war and fall from heaven and those who chose his side ultimately. In vision, those recorded as the ungodly were those who come forth in the resurrection of the unjust who all are sons of perdition. The Joseph sees the vision of those who come forth in the resurrection of the just. My theory- my belief, is that only verses 50-70 of this section are the only ones besides the sons of perdition who are resurrected. My belief is that these verses speak of all of the saved. My reasoning here is this-

Just a few short verses prior to this, specifically in these verses-

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment— (D&C 76:38-44)

A few clues here point to my theory. Verse 38 mentions that the sons of perdition are the only ones not redeemed. This means redeemed from spiritual death into eternal life. And how is this done? Through the atonement and the gospel. Verse 40 tells us that all of the saved are saved via the gospel (obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel). Verses 41-43 testify of this fact that Christ cleanses and saves all those who through the gospel obedience became cleansed from all their sins through the atonement of Christ. These all are thus perfect (spotless). They all are also begotten sons and daughters unto Christ because of their rebirth into spiritual life in and through their obedience and atoning powers of Christ. The word "saves" is so paramount to understanding here. We are not just speaking of mere resurrection here but resurrection unto life, or as the retranslation states- the resurrection of those who have done "good" in the resurrection of the just. This underscores the entire meaning of the vision. If you do not understand these few verses (38-44) you miss the entire objective of what the vision is really about.

Picking up a few verses later we get the actual testimony of "all those Christ saves" who really are everyone besides the sons of perdition. Here-

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just— (D&C 76:50)

What must be understood here is that these next verses (50-70) are the only ones mentioned coming forth in the resurrection of the "just" or should we say- the saved. Remeber, these verses contain the testimony of the gospel of Christ. What is the testimony of Christ? Simple, remeber what was said- "43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." That is the testimony of Christ- his work to save all and perfect (cleanse) those whom the Father gave him to save and bring back to him in His kingdom.

If you pay very careful attention to the qualifications mentioned in verse 50-70 you will note that it gives the exact details of how and why this group s that specific group spoken of in verses 38-44 (everyone except sons of perdition) Let me list them for you-

51-52 mentions they are the very ones who accepted Christ, were baptized and kept the commandments in order that they may be "cleansed" from all their sins. This again strengthens my point. Here this clearly explains that the only way to be cleansed of sins and be saved is to accept Christ, repent, be baptized and then keep the commandments from thereon. Remeber in verses 40-44 it specifically states that they are all cleansed from their sins except for "the sons of perdition". So we have this fact established in stone! In order to be anyone besides a son of perdition (just a different way of looking at the same thing) one must accept Christ, be baptized into his kingdom, and then keep all the commandments he gives us. By thus doing this one is cleansed from all of their sins. These verse are pretty much as far as one needs to go. These verses are the qualifying factor for all those spoken of in verses 38-44.

53-54 describes these just individuals further as being sealed by Holy spirit of promise and members of the "church of the Firstborn". What specifically is the church of the Firstborn though? Who belongs to it? Here-

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 93:21-22)

It mentions that "all those who are begotten through me" are members of this church and that the "Firstborn" here is another name for Christ. Pretty simple understandig here. What does it mean to be begotten through Christ? It means all those who repent and accept Christ and are baptized by proper authority in his name. This is the same qualifier as is spoken of in verses 38-44 concerning all whom he saves through his gospel (repentance and baptism. But lets dig a little deeper here to further strengthen the case. Begotten mean "born" and in gospel terms to be begotton through Christ means to be born again through Christ into spiritual life. In the Book of Mormon we read-

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)

The key word here is "redeemed" and this because they were born again (begotten) through Christ. Now remeber back in those same verses of section 76 where we discussed that the "redeemed" are all those who aren't sons of perdition and this because they are born again (baptized through Christ). Thus, all the saved are 1. Baptized, and- 2. Sons and daughters in Gods kingdom, and hence- 3.members of the church of the Firstborn.

Thus it is firmly established that all the saved (everyone besides sons of perdition) are members of the church of the Firstborn. Now onto the next verses-

55-58 Describes the promised blessings spoken of in Mosiah 27:25-27 where men become the sons and daughters of God, even gods themselves having been given all things. In the end, all men will have only one of two outcomes- either a son of God or a son of perdition. Why? Because at the great day of judgment after the resurrection and end of the millennium all people must have a Father at their head- a master so to speak. We either side with Christ and are his begotten children or we are sons to Lucifer having him at our head. Again this is testimony of the strict dichotomy Christ often spoke of concerning only two outcomes for man to gravitate towards because one cannot serve "two masters". Its either a son of God or a son of perdition. No other options are available...simple logic. This is quite a lot to chew on so I will continue later....

[zerinus]

My case and theory behind section 76 of the D&C-

Up until this point in the early restored church, Mormonism in its yet infant state was very similar to its Protestant background of its early members and believers. There was a strict dichotomy of the traditional heaven and hell, saved or damned, etc, etc.. And it was upon this point that Joseph Smith asked the paramount question of rewards of heaven concerning those who were more diligent versus less diligent. He was then shown the vision concerning this matter as it pertained to the just and the unjust.

JS saw in vision Lucifer make war and fall from heaven and those who chose his side ultimately. In vision, those recorded as the ungodly were those who come forth in the resurrection of the unjust who all are sons of perdition. The Joseph sees the vision of those who come forth in the resurrection of the just. My theory- my belief, is that only verses 50-70 of this section are the only ones besides the sons of perdition who are resurrected. My belief is that these verses speak of all of the saved. My reasoning here is this-

Just a few short verses prior to this, specifically in these verses-

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment— (D&C 76:38-44)

A few clues here point to my theory. Verse 38 mentions that the sons of perdition are the only ones not redeemed. This means redeemed from spiritual death into eternal life. And how is this done? Through the atonement and the gospel. Verse 40 tells us that all of the saved are saved via the gospel (obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel). Verses 41-43 testify of this fact that Christ cleanses and saves all those who through the gospel obedience became cleansed from all their sins through the atonement of Christ. These all are thus perfect (spotless). They all are also begotten sons and daughters unto Christ because of their rebirth into spiritual life in and through their obedience and atoning powers of Christ. The word "saves" is so paramount to understanding here. We are not just speaking of mere resurrection here but resurrection unto life, or as the retranslation states- the resurrection of those who have done "good" in the resurrection of the just. This underscores the entire meaning of the vision. If you do not understand these few verses (38-44) you miss the entire objective of what the vision is really about.

Picking up a few verses later we get the actual testimony of "all those Christ saves" who really are everyone besides the sons of perdition. Here-

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just— (D&C 76:50)

What must be understood here is that these next verses (50-70) are the only ones mentioned coming forth in the resurrection of the "just" or should we say- the saved. Remeber, these verses contain the testimony of the gospel of Christ. What is the testimony of Christ? Simple, remeber what was said- "43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." That is the testimony of Christ- his work to save all and perfect (cleanse) those whom the Father gave him to save and bring back to him in His kingdom.

If you pay very careful attention to the qualifications mentioned in verse 50-70 you will note that it gives the exact details of how and why this group s that specific group spoken of in verses 38-44 (everyone except sons of perdition) Let me list them for you-

51-52 mentions they are the very ones who accepted Christ, were baptized and kept the commandments in order that they may be "cleansed" from all their sins. This again strengthens my point. Here this clearly explains that the only way to be cleansed of sins and be saved is to accept Christ, repent, be baptized and then keep the commandments from thereon. Remeber in verses 40-44 it specifically states that they are all cleansed from their sins except for "the sons of perdition". So we have this fact established in stone! In order to be anyone besides a son of perdition (just a different way of looking at the same thing) one must accept Christ, be baptized into his kingdom, and then keep all the commandments he gives us. By thus doing this one is cleansed from all of their sins. These verse are pretty much as far as one needs to go. These verses are the qualifying factor for all those spoken of in verses 38-44.

53-54 describes these just individuals further as being sealed by Holy spirit of promise and members of the "church of the Firstborn". What specifically is the church of the Firstborn though? Who belongs to it? Here-

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 93:21-22)

It mentions that "all those who are begotten through me" are members of this church and that the "Firstborn" here is another name for Christ. Pretty simple understandig here. What does it mean to be begotten through Christ? It means all those who repent and accept Christ and are baptized by proper authority in his name. This is the same qualifier as is spoken of in verses 38-44 concerning all whom he saves through his gospel (repentance and baptism. But lets dig a little deeper here to further strengthen the case. Begotten mean "born" and in gospel terms to be begotton through Christ means to be born again through Christ into spiritual life. In the Book of Mormon we read-

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)

The key word here is "redeemed" and this because they were born again (begotten) through Christ. Now remeber back in those same verses of section 76 where we discussed that the "redeemed" are all those who aren't sons of perdition and this because they are born again (baptized through Christ). Thus, all the saved are 1. Baptized, and- 2. Sons and daughters in Gods kingdom, and hence- 3.members of the church of the Firstborn.

Thus it is firmly established that all the saved (everyone besides sons of perdition) are members of the church of the Firstborn. Now onto the next verses-

55-58 Describes the promised blessings spoken of in Mosiah 27:25-27 where men become the sons and daughters of God, even gods themselves having been given all things. In the end, all men will have only one of two outcomes- either a son of God or a son of perdition. Why? Because at the great day of judgment after the resurrection and end of the millennium all people must have a Father at their head- a master so to speak. We either side with Christ and are his begotten children or we are sons to Lucifer having him at our head. Again this is testimony of the strict dichotomy Christ often spoke of concerning only two outcomes for man to gravitate towards because one cannot serve "two masters". Its either a son of God or a son of perdition. No other options are available...simple logic. This is quite a lot to chew on so I will continue later....

I have read that, and it is still not clear to me what your "theory" is. In fact, I have not been able to ascertain it clearly from anything that you have written in this thread so far. Either you don't know yourself clearly what it is, or you don't want other people to know, or you are not very good at explaining it.

[Rob Osborn]

I have read that, and it is still not clear to me what your "theory" is. In fact, I have not been able to ascertain it clearly from anything that you have written in this thread so far. Either you don't know yourself clearly what it is, or you don't want other people to know, or you are not very good at explaining it.

Hum...I thought I was making it pretty clear. To summarize-

In the end there will only be two places for man to dwell. It will be either the Celestial kingdom here on this earth or it will be in hell with the devil and his angels.

My theory of section 76 is that the two lower kingdoms (the telestial and terrestrial) are just stages of our earth from one glory to the next. We right now are the very telestial kingdom spoken of in this section. During the millennium we will be the terrestrial kingdom which is also mentioned in this section.

[CV75]

My theory of section 76 is that the two lower kingdoms (the telestial and terrestrial) are just stages of our earth from one glory to the next. We right now are the very telestial kingdom spoken of in this section. During the millennium we will be the terrestrial kingdom which is also mentioned in this section.

Are you saying that the saints who have already been resurrected (3 Nephi 23:9-11; Matthew 27:52) and/or entered their exaltation (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob—D&C 132:37) are living here on this telestial planet, and enjoy the higher glories hidden from our view? Is the City of Enoch likewise on this planet; are the resurrected and/or exalted saints living among them?

[Rob Osborn]

Are you saying that the saints who have already been resurrected (3 Nephi 23:9-11; Matthew 27:52) and/or entered their exaltation (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob—D&C 132:37) are living here on this telestial planet, and enjoy the higher glories hidden from our view? Is the City of Enoch likewise on this planet; are the resurrected and/or exalted saints living among them?

When christ comes, the earth and all people will be quickened to the terrestrial glory.

Anyone who has been resurrected up to this point have been resurrected by the telestial glory.

[CV75]

Anyone who has been resurrected up to this point have been resurrected by the telestial glory.

Where do they live, and what is the glory of those who have entered their exaltation?

[Rob Osborn]

Where do they live, and what is the glory of those who have entered their exaltation?

Not sure where they live but they have been resurrected by the telestial glory even though they are celestial in spirit.

[CV75]

Not sure where they live but they have been resurrected by the telestial glory even though they are celestial in spirit.

This is where the theory seems to break apart for me. D&C 76 is all about what happens in the resurrection (verses 16, 17). The first resurrection, which describes both timing (Alma 40:8, 16, 19) and righteousness (D&C 76:50-70) is of superior glory to the last resurrection (verses 81-86). The resurrection is the point at which celestial spirits and correspondingly quickened element align (D&C 88:28).

Now if you are saying that celestial “resurrectoids” are physically living in the same spatial coordinates as planet Earth but hidden from our perception, perhaps due to differentiations between glories, then I can see how they could inhabit the same cosmic locale, except in a celestial and not telestial dimension. Only when someone of a lesser glory is quickened to see someone of a higher glory, or of spirit element only, could they be perceived. This is consistent with some observations that the post-mortal spirit world is also on Earth.

This would also mean, however, that there is only one, and not two, places the resurrected dead can go. The second death or spiritual death is covered in verses 32-49 (immortal life in a kingdom without glory, or without the ministrations of any agent of God, even of the Holy Ghost--compare with D&C 19:20). But extending your theory, there is no reason for outer darkness to not also be collocated with this planet as one of many glories or levels of existence that may be manifest to the quickened eye of the beholder--the sons of perdition are just so spiritually dark they can perceive no glory.

Also, as Earth realizes its Millenial then Celestial glory, where do those that cannot abide these glories go? Do they remain in the same coordinates but in a lesser dimension that cannot access greater light, but is still protected from the influence of lesser light?

At any rate, for these reasons the argument for "two places/conditions/kingdoms only" just doesn’t seem to hang together.

[Ahab]

Speaking hypothetically, if you were engaged in a gospel discussion on the plan of salvation with a sincere non-member and you didn't have the scriptures at hand, and if he or she were to ask you what the Lord's qualifications are that have to be met in order for an individual to inherit the Telestial Kingdom of glory -- how would you answer their question?

I would probably say something like this:

Accept the fact that Jesus is the Christ, while knowing what the Christ is, and then think of 3 things you know God doesn't want you to do, and at that point then give up doing only 1 of those things. You can switch from sin to sin if you want to, but if you're still intentionally doing (at least) 2 things you know God doesn't want you to do, and you're not repenting from those things, then you're doing what it takes to be qualified for Telestial kingdom.

After all, you gave up doing (at least) 1 thing you know God doesn't want you to do, so you should get some credit for that.

If you want a little more out of your life, and you'd like to be considered worthy for the Terrestrial kingdom, then give up on doing 2 of those things while still keeping your "favorite" sin. Again, you can switch from sin to sin if you like, but if you're still intentionally doing (at least) 1 thing you know God doesn't want you to do, and you're not repenting from doing that, then you're doing what it takes to be qualified for the Terrestrial kingdom.

I would probably then go on to explain that doing certain things can disqualify a person from any degree of glory, like denying the Holy Ghost, but I think what I said above would convey the basic idea I'd want them to know. If they wanted to qualify for the Celestial kingdom we'd have to keep talking while I taught a while longer.

[manofthecloth]

Hum...I thought I was making it pretty clear. To summarize-

In the end there will only be two places for man to dwell. It will be either the Celestial kingdom here on this earth or it will be in hell with the devil and his angels.

My theory of section 76 is that the two lower kingdoms (the telestial and terrestrial) are just stages of our earth from one glory to the next. We right now are the very telestial kingdom spoken of in this section. During the millennium we will be the terrestrial kingdom which is also mentioned in this section.

Interesting...Either we are with God or with Lucifer. Simple enough. If we are progressing forward we are with God. If we have given up (like the 1/3 in the so-called pre-existence) we are in Satan's power. Therefore, if we are in a space of glory, we have the potential to be redeemed with Father, but not reconciled until we make it all the way to the Celestial. Anything less than Celestial is preparatory only. Perhaps then, denying the HG is simply asking that our name be removed from the Book of Life. Denying the HG is perhaps to say, "depart from me forever! I no longer want your help. I no longer will try to progress."

Yes, I think you have given me something new to think about.

So...The kind of ETERNAL progression for which I am thinking, so-called plural mortal expiations (multiple probations) are probably a necessity.

[manofthecloth]

Would you mind providing a link to Hyrum Smith’s “waxes and wanes” quote and the entire talk if possible—all I can find online are snippets to from sources that don’t seem very trustworthy. On the surface, it seems to me to convey that the terrestrial type of person can be inclined more toward righteousness (a celestial type) or toward iniquity (a telestial type), and that there are innumerable degrees of righteousness just as there are innumerable degrees of waxing and waning. Also, during our mortal probation, we may take three steps forward and two back, etc. I think progress between these kingdoms is a function of mortality (which includes our time before resurrection).

"Words of the Prophets," p. 24, Franklin D. Richards. Now that you ask the question, I have to admit I have never seen the book. Now I want to see it. I looked for publications which have quoted from it and found one authoritative citation from a document hosted at BYU Idaho. The link is http://emp.byui.edu/jexj/new/talks/talks/JS%203OrdersPriesthood.pdf . Judge for yourself.

Incidentally...my stored summary of page 24 is 1. Franklin D. Richards, "Words of the Prophets," p. 24, Church Historians Office. (This is a small booklet kept by Brother Richards of the statements made by Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith.) "Hiram [smith] said Aug 1st. Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial or else the moon would not be a type, [because] it 'waxes & wanes.'"

[manofthecloth]

I would probably say something like this:

Accept the fact that Jesus is the Christ, while knowing what the Christ is, and then think of 3 things you know God doesn't want you to do, and at that point then give up doing only 1 of those things. You can switch from sin to sin if you want to, but if you're still intentionally doing (at least) 2 things you know God doesn't want you to do, and you're not repenting from those things, then you're doing what it takes to be qualified for Telestial kingdom.

After all, you gave up doing (at least) 1 thing you know God doesn't want you to do, so you should get some credit for that.

If you want a little more out of your life, and you'd like to be considered worthy for the Terrestrial kingdom, then give up on doing 2 of those things while still keeping your "favorite" sin. Again, you can switch from sin to sin if you like, but if you're still intentionally doing (at least) 1 thing you know God doesn't want you to do, and you're not repenting from doing that, then you're doing what it takes to be qualified for the Terrestrial kingdom.

I would probably then go on to explain that doing certain things can disqualify a person from any degree of glory, like denying the Holy Ghost, but I think what I said above would convey the basic idea I'd want them to know. If they wanted to qualify for the Celestial kingdom we'd have to keep talking while I taught a while longer.

I appreciate how AHAB has brought the discussion back to the beginning of the thread.

By AHAB's example now I would say to the newbie, "Telestial is where you and I are now. I like it here, but I want more. There are a lot of good people and there are a lot of bad people here. All the good people will be advanced forward at the time of the Millenium (when Christ will reign) and I want to be there with you and my family and your family. Think about it, only the worst of this world will remain Telestial, whereas the best of God's children will advance and progress forward to the school of the Millennium and eventually with God in the Celestial Kingdom. So, let's travel together as friends and family to meet God and to be with him again."

[Batgirlsmom]

Innocent question (please don't hurt me!):

How is the concept of resurrection through literal rebirth of the body in order to move "up" in exaltation depending upon our actions different from the Hindu concept of re-incarnation (sans the animal components)?

[bdouglas]

The Mormon idea (it is a Mormon idea only insofar as there are certain Mormons who believe it) of "multiple probations" is pretty much the same as Hindu reincarnation except that we are never re-incarnated as an animal. But it is re-incarnation. I do not believe it myself, but I know active LDS who do. There is an interested Sunstone presentation on Mormon and reincarnation.