Inheritors Of The Telestial Kingdom

[CV75]

I have studied it out quite a bit over the years. Look at the verses I posted above. It is pretty clear that the scriptures state that the second death happens after resurrection and judgment and not before. What scriptural evidence can be shown to disprove this doctrine?

You'll have to do your own additional study on this one from here on out -- it is as simple as doing a word search on lds.org.

harfad has given some response to your question--the doctrine that "the second death happens after resurrection and judgment and not before in one sense" is accompanied by another doctrine that says "the second death happens before resurrection and judgment" in another sense, and another doctrine says "the second death is spiritual death." So the real doctrine is, "the second death happens."

[Rob Osborn]

Let me see if my mobile device allows me to fix that. I had said:

Consider the highlighted passages. They are the kinds of passages that you have associated in your quotes with the final punishment after the resurrection, whereas the quotes I have given suggest that they refer to the punishments of the wicked in the spirit world, before the resurrection.

Some of the quotes may refer to pre-resurrection. I know for instance that D&C 19:4-5 speaks of post resurrection. But none of these scriptures deal specifically with defining the second death.

[Rob Osborn]

You'll have to do your own additional study on this one from here on out -- it is as simple as doing a word search on lds.org.

harfad has given some response to your question--the doctrine that "the second death happens after resurrection and judgment and not before in one sense" is accompanied by another doctrine that says "the second death happens before resurrection and judgment" in another sense, and another doctrine says "the second death is spiritual death." So the real doctrine is, "the second death happens."

I will admit that there is some misunderstanding on when the second death occurs and who has a part in that second death. Even on lds.org it isn't always clear and even right out misleading in some senses. But one person, one opinion does not make doctrine official in the church. One thing is for sure though, all teachings of the second death happening pre-resurrection cannot be traced to an accurate reading of scripture. Misinterpreting simple doctrine in the scriptures has led to some confusion on the subject. Most all of the searches on the "second death" on lds.org bring up the correct definition of both when it happens and to whom it happens to. There are a few instances where spiritual death is misrepresented such as the claim that the first spiritual death occurs upon birth and the second death occurs when we become accountable and sin. This of course is entirely a wrong doctrine- false doctrine. We know that little children are alive in Christ ( spiritually alive) until they become accountable and sin. It is at that time they then become spiritually dead or spiritually fallen and need rebirth through baptism.

Some have even wrongly assumed that the second death occurs at the time f death for the wicked when they go into the spirit world. That too is a false doctrine. Men remain in their first fallen state in the spirit world until they are brought out of that hell to be judged. For the unrepentant in hell, they are left in hell until after the millennium when then they are brought out of their first spiritual death to be judged of God in their resurrected state. It is at this point they are cast off again from righteousness and thus the "second death" at that time.

Even some have wrongly interpreted the second death to start for the wicked in hell at the beginning of the millennium. This is based on a misinterpretation of scriptures like this one-

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6)

It can be somewhat deceptive to interpret these verses because it almost sounds like the second death is occurring while the saints reign on the earth with Christ during the millennium. But what is actually said here is the inference that those who are destined to be in the second death will not be resurrected to that condemnation during the first resurrection must must wait for that fateful doom until after the first resurrection. This truth can be determined just a few verse later in the same chapter-

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[CV75]

Some of the quotes may refer to pre-resurrection. I know for instance that D&C 19:4-5 speaks of post resurrection. But none of these scriptures deal specifically with defining the second death.

The second death is defined in the following scriptures, is synonymous with spiritual death, the lake of fire and brimstone, and the pains of hell, and is a current condition (see Jacob 3:11; Romans 8:6; 2 Nephi 9:3; Alma 15:3, 5; Mosiah 27:28—and do read them!) as well as a future assignation: Alma 12: 16-32; Helaman 14;18-19; Revelation 21:8; Jacob 3:11; D& 63:17.

[CV75]

One thing is for sure though, all teachings of the second death happening pre-resurrection cannot be traced to an accurate reading of scripture.

I think this has been addressed in the scriptures that show that the second death is a present conditon for mortals as well as a future condition for resurrected people. You haven't shown how this is not so, and that those scriptures are wrong.

Some have even wrongly assumed

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Even some have wrongly interpreted

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It can be somewhat deceptive to interpret these verses

These issues can go all over the place. You need to show why the scriptures that have been provided on the definiiton and application of the term "second death" are limited only to the sons of perdition after the resurrection. Then you have to show how a degree of separation from God is not a degree of second death. And then you have to show why the scriptures on the three kingdoms allow progress between kingdoms because only the sons of perdition suffer the second death after the resurrection. You haven't done either yet.

[Rob Osborn]

The second death is defined in the following scriptures, is synonymous with spiritual death, the lake of fire and brimstone, and the pains of hell, and is a current condition (see Jacob 3:11; Romans 8:6; 2 Nephi 9:3; Alma 15:3, 5; Mosiah 27:28—and do read them!) as well as a future assignation: Alma 12: 16-32; Helaman 14;18-19; Revelation 21:8; Jacob 3:11; D& 63:17.

The first spiritual death is similar in a lot of ways with the second death- they are both spiritual deaths. The big difference is that the second death is an eternal death whereas the first death is a temporary death. The other difference is that only the sons of perdition suffer the second death whereas all accountable sinners suffer the first death to some degree. It is a time designation also. The second death does not start until after resurrection. All those points I have supported with scripture. Remember, one can be in hell and only be suffering the first death while another may also be in hell and suffering the second death. The difference is the timing. The scriptures are very clear on the subject that only the sons of perdition suffer the second death. It is the spiritual death that Christ can't redeem them from. Though the scriptures define the suffering of the first spiritual death and the second spiritual death the same in many instances, that itself doesn't define which of the two deaths one is in. It is all about the timing. The second death can't begin until one is first redeemed from the first death. For the wicked this means that until they are resurrected and brought back into the presence of God and his angels to be judged, they are still in the first spiritual death only. Only after this can they then be condemned again to hell which at that time will thus be the "second death". Because Christ saves all the works of His hands besides the sons of perdition, only the sons of perdition will be sent to the condemnation of the "second death".

[harfad]

Some of the quotes may refer to pre-resurrection. I know for instance that D&C 19:4-5 speaks of post resurrection. But none of these scriptures deal specifically with defining the second death.

My point was that you are using the scriptures incorrectly to arrive at your conclusions. The endowment ceremony and D&C 76 talk about different things and refer to different situations. You cannot use one to cancel out the other, or to reinterpret one to fit the condition of the other. D&C 76 refers to the final condition of the saved (and unsaved) after the resurrection, whereas the endowment ceremony depicts the journey that a celestial person (i. e. one who is destined for celestial glory) takes on his journey to eternal life. The two situations don't translate into each other.

[MormonMason]

Harfad is correct. Hence the references in the temple to the telestial world, the current world of lawlessness, and to Everyman's path from that state, like Adam and Eve, to the Terrestrial state, the world and state of law, reference to priesthoods associated with Terrestrial and Celestial law, to the Celestial state via progressive revelation and progressively higher covenants until we ultimately pass through the veil and enter into God's presence.

The Temple ceremony symbolizes our current life and entrance into the next as we pass through the veil; the Doctrine and Covenants and Bible passages speak entirely of life after death and so forth. These are two differing time lines that overlap ever so slightly.

In any case, you are trying to force square pegs into round holes. It does not work.

Edited October 22, 2012 by MormonMason

[CV75]

Remember, one can be in hell and only be suffering the first death while another may also be in hell and suffering the second death. The difference is the timing.

This is incomplete. Remember, one can be in hell and only be suffering the first death while another may also be in hell and suffering the second death while another can be in hell while yet alive in mortality while another may also be in hell and suffering the second death while yet alive in mortality. The difference is the timing, not to mention the other considerations of degree and how hell, the second death, spiritual death are often synonymous.

Rev. 20: 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [Hell is the second death]

Jacob 3: 11 O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death [the second death or spiirtual death in this life]; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell [the second death or spiritual death in this life] that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death [in either this life or the next life].

Alma 13: 30 And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell [the second death or spiritual death in this life or the next], that ye may not suffer the second death [spiritual death or hell in this life and the next].

[Rob Osborn]

My point was that you are using the scriptures incorrectly to arrive at your conclusions. The endowment ceremony and D&C 76 talk about different things and refer to different situations. You cannot use one to cancel out the other, or to reinterpret one to fit the condition of the other. D&C 76 refers to the final condition of the saved (and unsaved) after the resurrection, whereas the endowment ceremony depicts the journey that a celestial person (i. e. one who is destined for celestial glory) takes on his journey to eternal life. The two situations don't translate into each other.

D&C 76 can't possibly be speaking of the saved when discussing the telestial. Christ has no power to save the unrepentant liars, whoremongers, etc. Remember that in the vision it refers to them in the present tense. This is in direct contradiction to all of Christ's gospel. Please explain how it is possible that Christ can save the unrepentant?

The endowment is actually the most currently revealed plan of salvation. It thus clarifies what the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are.

[Rob Osborn]

This is incomplete. Remember, one can be in hell and only be suffering the first death while another may also be in hell and suffering the second death while another can be in hell while yet alive in mortality while another may also be in hell and suffering the second death while yet alive in mortality. The difference is the timing, not to mention the other considerations of degree and how hell, the second death, spiritual death are often synonymous.

Rev. 20: 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [Hell is the second death]

Jacob 3: 11 O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death [the second death or spiirtual death in this life]; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell [the second death or spiritual death in this life] that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death [in either this life or the next life].

Alma 13: 30 And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell [the second death or spiritual death in this life or the next], that ye may not suffer the second death [spiritual death or hell in this life and the next].

Of course you cannot prove this idea in scripture that the second death occurs in mortality. You are confusing the first and second deaths with each other. Nowhere in scripture does it state that the second death occurs before resurrection and judgment. A person can be redeemed from the first death. A person in the second death cannot be redeemed. That is the difference and also why "only" the sons of perdition suffer any part of the second death. Please provide some scriptures that state your position.

[Rob Osborn]

Harfad is correct. Hence the references in the temple to the telestial world, the current world of lawlessness, and to Everyman's path from that state, like Adam and Eve, to the Terrestrial state, the world and state of law, reference to priesthoods associated with Terrestrial and Celestial law, to the Celestial state via progressive revelation and progressively higher covenants until we ultimately pass through the veil and enter into God's presence.

The Temple ceremony symbolizes our current life and entrance into the next as we pass through the veil; the Doctrine and Covenants and Bible passages speak entirely of life after death and so forth. These are two differing time lines that overlap ever so slightly.

In any case, you are trying to force square pegs into round holes. It does not work.

The temple endowment is the one and only path that all must enter in order to be saved. Section 138 clearly states that repentant sinners in hell must show obedience to the ordinances of the temple in order to be saved eternally. This means they must be obedient to the very same laws and ordinances that each one of us make in the endowment.

[CV75]

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Edited October 22, 2012 by CV75

[CV75]

Please provide some scriptures that state your position.

I have, in the very post you replied to as well as others. Spiritual death occurs in mortality and also after. If it is called the second death after mortality, i don't see why it can't be called the same thing during mortality. Cain and Judas were evidently such people--sons of perdition, spiirtually dead and suffering the second death, hell, etc.--before they died as well as after. Any wicked person suffers these things to a degree in life and in death. The main point is that what we call it has no bearing on the fact that resurrected telestial beings do not progress from one kingdom of glory to the next.

For example, how does a resurrected son of perdition suffering the fulness of spiritual death translate into a resurrected person in the telestial kingdom entering into exalttaion?

[Rob Osborn]

I have, in the very post you replied to as well as others. Spiritual death occurs in mortality and also after. If it is called the second death after mortality, i don't see why it can't be called the same thing during mortality. Cain and Judas were evidently such people--sons of perdition, spiirtually dead and suffering the second death, hell, etc.--before they died as well as after. Any wicked person suffers these things to a degree in life and in death. The main point is that what we call it has no bearing on the fact that resurrected telestial beings do not progress from one kingdom of glory to the next.

For example, how does a resurrected son of perdition suffering the fulness of spiritual death translate into a resurrected person in the telestial kingdom entering into exalttaion?

But you cannot conflate the two terms because they are not the same thing. Even though both the first death and the second death are both spiritual deaths and have similar defining consequences, they are different in the time designation of when they occur and thus have drastically different temporary versus eternal ramifications. Every accountable person born into mortality besides Christ will suffer the first spiritual death. Only those who remain unrepentant after the resurrection and judgment will be hurt of the second death.

[MormonMason]

The temple endowment is the one and only path that all must enter in order to be saved. Section 138 clearly states that repentant sinners in hell must show obedience to the ordinances of the temple in order to be saved eternally. This means they must be obedient to the very same laws and ordinances that each one of us make in the endowment.

Wrong! Salvation is of the lower degrees of glory as well. The endowment is not required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, either. It is required for exaltation, however. But, it is not required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom like baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are.

You also cannot bend the scripture to the Temple Endowment Ceremony because it all is symbolic and fits no real world construct. For instance, there was no such thing as the Aaronic Priesthood in the time of Adam. This was to come later in the time of the Law of Moses, when there would be an actual Aaron and descendants to receive it.

[MormonMason]

...The main point is that what we call it has no bearing on the fact that resurrected telestial beings do not progress from one kingdom of glory to the next.

...

But, they don't. You are correct about that. As Rob does not seem to understand the scriptures, once the resurrections and judgments are complete, no son of Earth can progress to other kingdoms. They are done, "worlds without end" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:112).

Progression of any kind, with the exception of those who are exalted, must precede the final resurrection and and final judgment. Even those in the Celestial Kingdom, if they are not exalted and have not received eternal marriage, "that is the end of [their] kingdom, [they] cannot have an increase" (Doctrine and Covenants 131:3-4).

If they could progress from kingdom to kingdom after the final judgment then eventually they would be able to enter into the presence of the Lamb as they progressed from one kingdom to the next. The phrase "worlds without end" (unlike the Hebrew ^colam) means literally what it says.

Edited October 22, 2012 by MormonMason

[Ahab]

Let me see if I can clear up some of the misunderstanding in this way:

The first (spiritual) death referred to in the scriptures is the separation from God that resulted from the fall of Adam and Eve.

That has been or can be overcome, on an individual basis, through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Whether or not it is overcome, and to whatever degree it is overcome, is also on an individual basis, wiith people either fully overcoming the first (spiritual) death (Celestial glory), or overcoming it to a lesser degree (either Telestial or Terrestrial glory).

Those who don't overcome the first (spiritual) death to any degree at all will go on to experience the second (spiritual) death, having chosen to totally forfeit the opportunity to overcome the first (spiritual) death by totally rejecting the atonement of Jesus Christ.

[Ahab]

... once the resurrections and judgments are complete, no son of Earth can progress to other kingdoms. They are done, "worlds without end" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:112).

That's speculation. The scrirptures do suggest that the Telestial can't go on to Celestial worlds, but that's because they can only abide a Telestial glory and can't abide Celestial glory while they are Telestial. It doesn't necessarily mean the Telestial can't eventually receive Celestial glory at which time they could go on to Celestial worlds, though. It's only while Telestial that they are limited.

Progression of any kind, with the exception of those who are exalted, must precede the final resurrection and and final judgment. Even those in the Celestial Kingdom, if they are not exalted and have not received eternal marriage, "that is the end of [their] kingdom, [they] cannot have an increase" (Doctrine and Covenants 131:3-4).

Again, more speculation. One should consider why those of higher glory will be ministering to those of lesser glory, even though at some point earlier a sorting will have occurred based on what a person was willing to abide at a particular time.

If they could progress from kingdom to kingdom after the final judgment then eventually they would be able to enter into the presence of the Lamb as they progressed from one kingdom to the next. The phrase "worlds without end" (unlike the Hebrew ^colam) means literally what it says.

Exactly.

[Rob Osborn]

Let me see if I can clear up some of the misunderstanding in this way:

The first (spiritual) death referred to in the scriptures is the separation from God that resulted from the fall of Adam and Eve.

That has been or can be overcome, on an individual basis, through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Whether or not it is overcome, and to whatever degree it is overcome, is also on an individual basis, wiith people either fully overcoming the first (spiritual) death (Celestial glory), or overcoming it to a lesser degree (either Telestial or Terrestrial glory).

Those who don't overcome the first (spiritual) death to any degree at all will go on to experience the second (spiritual) death, having chosen to totally forfeit the opportunity to overcome the first (spiritual) death by totally rejecting the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Pretty correct. The main point here is that the second death, which is similar in many ways to the first, is different where it matters most. That being the eternal separation from God not just temporary.

[Rob Osborn]

Wrong! Salvation is of the lower degrees of glory as well. The endowment is not required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, either. It is required for exaltation, however. But, it is not required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom like baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are.

You also cannot bend the scripture to the Temple Endowment Ceremony because it all is symbolic and fits no real world construct. For instance, there was no such thing as the Aaronic Priesthood in the time of Adam. This was to come later in the time of the Law of Moses, when there would be an actual Aaron and descendants to receive it.

The temple endowment is the plan of salvation- the means necessary whereby we become saved. Repentance and baptism are preparatory in that it "prepares" us to enter into the gate which then places on the pathway that leads to salvation. The endowment is that pathway. Every person in hell who repents must abide by the same laws and ordinances to be saved which includes the endowment ceremony.

[Ahab]

Pretty correct. The main point here is that the second death, which is similar in many ways to the first, is different where it matters most. That being the eternal separation from God not just temporary.

That's speculation too, Rob. We don't know for sure if God won't provide another opportunity for those who go on to experience the second death. Maybe he will, or maybe he won't, and I prefer to hold out some hope that even those people will eventually turn around and choose to be saved by no longer rejecting the atonement of Jesus Christ.

[CV75]

Only those who remain unrepentant after the resurrection and judgment will be hurt of the second death.

Yes...and those in this life who are separated from God's spiritual presence as a result of sin are experiencing a measue of the second death. The one you're talking about can't be repented of. And those in a lesser glory after the resurrection are experiencing a measue of the second death.

At any rate, none of this matters with regards to the erroneous claim that resurrected telestial beings progress from one kingdom of glory to the next, and that is the point you are trying to prove, correct? I think we can agree that sons of perdition suffer a fulness of the second death, have a kingdom of no glory, and cannot progress. Now defend how telestial resurrectoids progress.

[MormonMason]

That's speculation. The scrirptures do suggest that the Telestial can't go on to Celestial worlds, but that's because they can only abide a Telestial glory and can't abide Celestial glory while they are Telestial. It doesn't necessarily mean the Telestial can't eventually receive Celestial glory at which time they could go on to Celestial worlds, though. It's only while Telestial that they are limited.

Not, it is not speculation. It is a literal reading of the text which says "worlds without end." It is also the doctrine of the Church.

Again, more speculation. One should consider why those of higher glory will be ministering to those of lesser glory, even though at some point earlier a sorting will have occurred based on what a person was willing to abide at a particular time.

They don't call it "the final judgment" for nothing. This is no speculation but a literal reading of the scripture itself. Even in the Celestial Kingdom, those who don't meet the requirements of the highest degree within the Celestial kingdom have an end to their kingdom with no increase. This is not speculation. This is what the scriptures say.

As to why there will be ministrations between kingdoms it is pretty much stated. It is for the purpose of bringing the influence of the Holy Ghost to those in the Telestial kingdom. Note that the scripture states clearly enough that the Telestial receives of the Spirit through the ministration of the Terrestrial and they through the ministration of the Celestial. Apart from that ministration, the Telestial kingdom would not receive the Holy Spirit. They literally are forever ("worlds without end" Doctrine and Covenants 76:112) cut off from the presence of the Father and Son, and the person of the Holy Ghost himself is not present in the Telestial. The Telestial receives of the Spirit through the ministration of others from kingdoms above them. That is what the scripture says. (See Doctrine and Covenants 76:85-88).

Exactly.

I am not sure about what you mean other than it looks like you may have contradicted yourself. "Worlds without end" literally means what it says. Thus, no one in the telestial glory after the final judgment will ever cross from there into a higher kingdom of glory. To say otherwise is speculation.

Edited October 22, 2012 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

That's speculation too, Rob. We don't know for sure if God won't provide another opportunity for those who go on to experience the second death. Maybe he will, or maybe he won't, and I prefer to hold out some hope that even those people will eventually turn around and choose to be saved by no longer rejecting the atonement of Jesus Christ.

No, we do know, at least pertaining to the Telestial. "Worlds without end" means just what it says. The inhabitants of the Telestial glory will never enter into the presence of the Father or the Son "worlds without end."

For the sons of Perdition, we are told that their end is unknown to all men except those who enter into that region of no glory. That is why there has been speculation on the part of a few individuals as to these sons of Perdition somehow falling back and decaying into their native element to be recycled later.

If there is zero chance that those who will end up in telestial glory will progress from the Telestial into the Terrestrial, what makes you think that the sons of Perdition will get a chance to improve their circumstances?