Inheritors Of The Telestial Kingdom

[CV75]

In either case, the "tares" (and the "wheat") refer to people, not doctrines, practices, or teachings.

While we are free to use the parables to teach things on different levels, treating wheat and tares as a division of two types of people is an incomplete observation, since there are better parables that show how the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, etc. In this thread, dividing people into two camps is being used to defend the notion of exalting resurrected telestial persons and undermine the principle of degrees of glory in a post-judgment existence.

D&C 86 sheds additional light on the New Testament parable. We all know that the apostles do not sow righteous people and Satan does not sow wicked people. That flies in the face of the principle of agency. People certainly become righteous or wicked depending on their willing consumption of wheat or tares. So wheat represents the keys (that define the doctrines, covenants, ordinances, etc.) of the true kingdom and the tares represent the corruptions of such by the apostate kingdom. The kingdom of the devil will definitely be destroyed, but not until the Lord’s kingdom is fully established.

The role of faith in verse 6 is to help His servants wait upon the Lord until His kingdom is ready. Otherwise destroying the kingdom of devil before the kingdom is set up deprives mankind of exercising further agency about the fulness the Lord intends to bestow upon His children, or in other words, destroys the wheat also.

[CV75]

So even the inhabitants of the lowest kingdom will be followers of Christ. All, except for the sons of perdition, will freely and happily confess Jesus Christ is the source of their light, life and salvation.

Yes, but they will not live in the presence of the Father and the Son, because the minstration of the Holy Ghost, when all is said and done, is all they are able to bear.

Many of teh points in this thread have been to advance the idea that because they are not sons of perdition, they will eventually advance unto exaltation. But there hasn't been any support of this other than an appeal to God's love, grace and mercy on terms other than what He has laid out.

[Cold Steel]

I still maintain the tares are the apostate church of the devil and the wheat the restored church. The kingdom of the devil cannot be destroyed before the kingdom of God is more fully established (only those who arew eak in faith would see this as a correct course of action, since agency would be overrun and an incomplete blessing rendered).

Ezra Taft Benson sought to clarify the parable when he said:

Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded.

It is well that our people understand this principle, so they will not be misled by those apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off. But there is a cleansing coming. The Lord says that his vengeance shall be poured out "upon the inhabitants of the earth.... And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me...." (D&C 112:24-26.) I look forward to that cleansing; its need within the Church is becoming increasingly apparent.

The Lord strengthened the faith of the early apostles by pointing out Judas as a traitor, even before this apostle had completed his iniquitous work. So also in our day the Lord has told us of the tares within the wheat that will eventually be hewn down when they are fully ripe. But until they are hewn down, they will be with us, amongst us. (Conference Report, April 1969, p.10)

The parable is so applicable to numerous situations that it can apply to all of them. But according to Elder Benson, its primary meaning is the church, and those who rise up in it and decay it from within, just as it happened in the ancient church. In our day and time, we see all sorts of divisions in and out of the church, especially those polygamous cults in Utah, Colorado, Canada and Mexico. Those are people who, in my opinion, should be broken up and its leaders arrested and imprisoned until Hell freezes over. I also recently saw a video on YouTube where a member of the church sneaked a video camera into a temple and posted sacred content. This was done by a member who likely pays tithing and attends church regularly. One wonders what went through his mind to commit such an act. Add to that the covenants one makes promising to keep these things sacred, and it also becomes a matter of personal honor. I recall the instructions that Joseph Smith gave to two of the spies he utilized to keep track of his enemies. He told them to pay attention to what was said, but warned them not to make any covenants or or engage in anything requiring them to take an oath in the name of the Lord, even on pain of death. Apparently he felt that oaths were so sacred that it's better to give one's life than violating them.

.

[CV75]

Ezra Taft Benson sought to clarify the parable when he said:

He is teaching from the parable, and I agreee with what is quoted, but D&C 86 has a very specific message to convey about what the wheat and the tares actually are, despite the convenience of considering them to represent two classes of people.

There are certainly apostates among the saints, wolves among the flock, foolish among the wise, etc. and the Lord will cleanse His house, the body of those professing His name and He will destroy the kingdom of the devil. It must be recognized that in some ways these two activites overlap and in some ways they do not.

I do not think it is too fine a point to say that there are those that are nourished by wheat and those who are nourished by tares, and the Lord will cleanse and burn the latter on His timetable--but those who are so nourished are not the wheat and the tares themselves. A careful reading of D&C 86 teaches this.

The issue I have is with dividing people into two groups and then asserting that the ony two eventual outcomes for the plan of salvation are perdition and exaltation.

Edited October 29, 2012 by CV75

[teddyaware]

I am sure the Nephites had many great mysteries revealed to them which the Lord has not revealed to us yet; but it does not logically follow that everything that God has revealed to us in this dispensation, such as the vision of the three degrees of glory for example, He should have revealed to them.

Is it not true that Moroni, as well as other of the Nephite prophets, had access to the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon? And is it not also true that Moroni read, copied and sealed up said sealed portion of the Book of Mormon? And is it not also true that the sealed portion contains the deepest, most porfound mysteries of God -- advanced mysteries that even now remain hidden from the saints in this dispensation? It is, therefore, very likely some of the Nephite prophets knew of the doctrine three degrees of glory and even much more.

"4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the ^avery things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were ^bgreater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should ^aseal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the ^binterpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise ^afaith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become ^bsanctified in me, then will I ^cmanifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my ^drevelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the ^eFather of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are."

Remember, D&C 76 is not by any means a definitive revelation on the plan of salvation, for there is still much more that as yet remains to be disclosed. D&C 76 is likely, as it were, just a small portion of a much larger doctrinal superstructure. For we read:

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But ^agreat and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the ^bmysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not ^alawful for man to utter; D&C 76

[harfad]

While we are free to use the parables to teach things on different levels, treating wheat and tares as a division of two types of people is an incomplete observation, since there are better parables that show how the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, etc.

I don't see that. There are several parables that portray the wicked and the righteous as a dichotomy, a black and white issue, rather than a gradation of many shades of grey. I don't see why this particular parable should be treated differently from the rest.

In this thread, dividing people into two camps is being used to defend the notion of exalting resurrected telestial persons and undermine the principle of degrees of glory in a post-judgment existence.

I agree, but there are several scriptural teachings and/or parables which are misinterpreted in this way. I don't see why this particular parable should be treated differently from the rest.

D&C 86 sheds additional light on the New Testament parable. We all know that the apostles do not sow righteous people and Satan does not sow wicked people. That flies in the face of the principle of agency.

I think that they do! The idea of "sowing" is used as a metaphor. It means that one group is a follower of Satan while the other group is a follower of the Lord and His Apostles. It is not meant to convey the idea of loss of agency by either group. Satan indeed "sows" the wicked group, while Jesus and His Apostles "sow" the righteous group.

People certainly become righteous or wicked depending on their willing consumption of wheat or tares. So wheat represents the keys (that define the doctrines, covenants, ordinances, etc.) of the true kingdom and the tares represent the corruptions of such by the apostate kingdom.

There is no doubt that the wheat and the tares people, not keys, doctrines, practices etc. See D&C 101:63-65.

The kingdom of the devil will definitely be destroyed, but not until the Lord’s kingdom is fully established.

Don't see the relevance of that to our current discussion.

The role of faith in verse 6 is to help His servants wait upon the Lord until His kingdom is ready. Otherwise destroying the kingdom of devil before the kingdom is set up deprives mankind of exercising further agency about the fulness the Lord intends to bestow upon His children, or in other words, destroys the wheat also.

Verse 6 simply reverts back to the original parable as taught in the NT. the "tare" is apparently a kind of vegetation or weed that looks a lot like the "wheat"--especially in the early stages of its growth--so that a farmer trying to "weed out" the tares from the field of grain could easily pull out some of the wheat by mistake. It is best to wait until the harvest time so that the two different types of vegetation can be more easily distinguished and separated, without the risk mistaking one for the other. According to verse 6, this difference between the two types of vegetation in their different stages of growth translates into the degree of our faith. It means that "wheat" and the "tares" should be allowed to grow together undisturbed until "harvest time" (i.e. judgement day) when they can be more easily distinguished and rewarded accordingly.

By the way, I will not have regular access to the Internet for the next couple of weeks, after which I may decide to go back to my lurking activities; but I will try to finish this discussion if I can, as I do not like to leave a discussion unfinished.

[harfad]

teddyaware, everything you have said is true, and my original reply still applies.

[CV75]

Remember, D&C 76 is not by any means a definitive revelation on the plan of salvation, for there is still much more that as yet remains to be disclosed. D&C 76 is likely, as it were, just a small portion of a much larger doctrinal superstructure.

This does not mean that those who are resurrected into the telestial kingdom advance onward to exaltation. If this were so, those teaching it are revealing that which is not lawful to be uttered.

[CV75]

I don't see why this particular parable should be treated differently from the rest.

***

I don't see why this particular parable should be treated differently from the rest.

I am treating this parable differently only from a unique perspective offered in D&C 86 that isn’t offered in the Bible, for the purpose of countering an erroneous assertion based on a too-narrow, albeit popular and useful, interpretation.

Satan indeed "sows" the wicked group, while Jesus and His Apostles "sow" the righteous group.

***

There is no doubt that the wheat and the tares people, not keys, doctrines, practices etc. See D&C 101:63-65.

I have no qualms when people view it this way, I just don’t think it represents the same picture D&C 86 offers (especially for defending an erroneous conclusion), and this view certainly doesn’t invalidate the explanation I gave from D& 86. D&C 101 is another picture of the wheat and the tares.

Don't see the relevance of that to our current discussion.

The relevancy of my statement, “The kingdom of the devil will definitely be destroyed, but not until the Lord’s kingdom is fully established” is that I agree that there will be a separation of the tares in the Lord’s due time, just that the tares are not necessarily only symbolic of sons of perdition.

Verse 6 simply reverts back to the original parable as taught in the NT.

I was commenting on the role of faith in verse 6, which is instruction for the Lord’s servants after the apostasy (verse 3) and in the days of the restoration (verse 4).

But the Lord saith unto them [His servants], pluck not up the tares [the false operations of Satan] while the blade [“the word” from verse 4, or restored keys of Christ] is yet tender [the incomplete roll-out of all the Lord has to do to prepare the world for His Second Coming] (for verily your faith is weak) [only the weak in faith would prematurely pluck up the tares without waiting for the full endowment the Lord plans to prepare His kingdom with], lest you destroy the wheat also [the fruit of such weak faith is incomplete preparation and lost access to the fullness].

A scenario where the kingdom of the devil is destroyed by those without the faith to wait until the kingdom of God is fully established translates into a partial preparation for all the Lord has to give, or a lesser glory. This is why He tells the Church leaders in verse 11, “Therefore, blessed are ye if ye continue in my goodness [don’t seek or expect to destroy the kingdom of the devil right now, for there is more to reveal and to restore that will enable you to do just that], a light unto the Gentiles, and through this priesthood, a savior unto my people Israel.”

By the way, I will not have regular access to the Internet for the next couple of weeks, after which I may decide to go back to my lurking activities; but I will try to finish this discussion if I can, as I do not like to leave a discussion unfinished.

I will be happy to oblige, if I can remember what we were talking about by then!

[Rob Osborn]

Apostles—sowers of the wheat seed (the doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel according to the keys).

Satan—sower of the tares (the corrupted doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel without the keys).

While the tares choked out the wheat (apostasy), in the last days the restored doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel are growing up in the field.

Gathering out the wheat symbolizes the dominions of the saints upon the earth, which are small because of the wickedness and abominations of the devil (1 Nephi 14:12), which is the whore, the church of the devil, etc. In due time Satan and his kingdom will be bound (D&C 88:7) and destroyed.

I don't see where the wheat and the tares refers specificcally to people in D&C 86. Can you exlain?

Go back to Matthew chapter 13-

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the ^atares are the children of the wicked one;

Now go to D&C 101-

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;

Now, Looking back at D&C 86-

7 Therefore, let the wheat and the ^atares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be ^bburned.

The parable of the wheat and the tares is a doctrine explaining the dichotomy between the righteous whom Christ saves and the wicked who Christ doesn't save and are cast out. The parable speaks specifically about the wheat and tares being a representation of the two types of people on the earth. The wheat and the tares are hard to discern from each other in the early states. But in the end when they are fully ripe it becomes very apparent who is whom. An interesting little sidenote about wheat, garners, and temples-

Not sure if you have been in the temple in Rexburg but it has a wheat theme throughout the entire building. But, only in the sealing room do you find the wheat in the form of being fully ripe and ready to harvest. What does this mean? Whether they intended the truth of it at the time I am not sure but- The wheat are the sons and daughters of God- everyone Christ saves. That wheat is stored in the garners which are the temples. The symbolism is very rich indeed! We all are wheat awaiting the time of harvest when we are finished. Our names now are being gathered and stored in the temples (garners) so that we can be given celestial glory when Christ comes as is mentioned in D&C 101. Note how in the parable, the wheat are not gathered anywhere else but the one location with all the same reward while the tares are all left to be burned.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[CV75]

The symbolism is very rich indeed!

Which is all well and good with a number of applications until it is used to conclude that resurrected heirs of the telestial world subsequently enter their exaltation.

[Ahab]

Which is all well and good with a number of applications until it is used to conclude that resurrected heirs of the telestial world subsequently enter their exaltation.

There are a lot of nuances in language that you should consider when trying to explain this issue.

I think Rob is and has been thinking of salvation in terms of who gets to move on to the Celestial order of glory, and in those terms, he is right that everyone who doesn't make it that far will not be saved, in that sense. They won't be exalted, so they won't be saved (as Rob defines what it means to be saved).

It would also help to define what it means to receive the glory of God so that we can understand what those who don't make iti as far as the Celestial order of glory will be missing. To think in terms of who gets to be with which member of the Godhead doesn't necessarily help all that much, since each of those persons is of the Celestial order and to be with any one of them could at least conceivably give people the benefit of being with all of them, together.

So what does it mean to say that some will be of the Telestial order and more limited than those of the Terrestrial or Celestial order? If some will be enjoying the presence and fellowship of the Holy Spirit, why wouldn't they be also be enjoying the presence and fellowship of our Lord, or our Father in heaven? If they can be with one person of the Celestial order, why can't they be with them all, or at least our Father and Jesus Christ. To understand that I think we we need to understand what our Lord meant when he revealed what Joseph recorded as D&C 76.

But how do we understand that and explain it correctly? And even if we use the best words we can think of, can somebody still be confused about how to correctly understand that?

To me it all boils down to what is meant by words like saved and glory and exaltation, which not everyone understands in the same way, and which can even have multiple correct meanings. There are many, many levels of progression, and only one way to be as perfect as our Father in heaven. We will stop at the level we are at right now, or will we continue to get more and more like him, maybe even someday becoming as he is now?

[Rob Osborn]

Which is all well and good with a number of applications until it is used to conclude that resurrected heirs of the telestial world subsequently enter their exaltation.

We right now are heirs of the telestial world otherwise we wouldnt be living here on the telestial world. We had to meet some minimum requirement just to come here. 1/3 of the host of heaven didnt qualify to be an heir to our world.

The parable of the wheat and tares only shows "two" groups- the 1. wheat, and- 2. tares. Either one is a wheat or one is a tare. There is no other option possible. This is what exactly Christ is trying to explain to us in as simple terms as possible. All of the saved are "wheat" and get stored in the garners (temples/ retain name in book of life) while the tares are the sons of perdition and cast out. All of the wheat (the saved) enjoy celestial glory when Christ comes in the kingdom of his Father (celestial kingdom) to reward every man according to his works (temple ordinances). Because in order to be saved, all have to be obedient to the house of God (temples). There is no salvation fore those disobedient to Christ's gospel who remain unrepentant at the great last day of judgment.

[Rob Osborn]

There are a lot of nuances in language that you should consider when trying to explain this issue.

I think Rob is and has been thinking of salvation in terms of who gets to move on to the Celestial order of glory, and in those terms, he is right that everyone who doesn't make it that far will not be saved, in that sense. They won't be exalted, so they won't be saved (as Rob defines what it means to be saved).

It would also help to define what it means to receive the glory of God so that we can understand what those who don't make iti as far as the Celestial order of glory will be missing. To think in terms of who gets to be with which member of the Godhead doesn't necessarily help all that much, since each of those persons is of the Celestial order and to be with any one of them could at least conceivably give people the benefit of being with all of them, together.

So what does it mean to say that some will be of the Telestial order and more limited than those of the Terrestrial or Celestial order? If some will be enjoying the presence and fellowship of the Holy Spirit, why wouldn't they be also be enjoying the presence and fellowship of our Lord, or our Father in heaven? If they can be with one person of the Celestial order, why can't they be with them all, or at least our Father and Jesus Christ. To understand that I think we we need to understand what our Lord meant when he revealed what Joseph recorded as D&C 76.

But how do we understand that and explain it correctly? And even if we use the best words we can think of, can somebody still be confused about how to correctly understand that?

To me it all boils down to what is meant by words like saved and glory and exaltation, which not everyone understands in the same way, and which can even have multiple correct meanings. There are many, many levels of progression, and only one way to be as perfect as our Father in heaven. We will stop at the level we are at right now, or will we continue to get more and more like him, maybe even someday becoming as he is now?

To clarify-

To be "saved" means to be saved from the second death- that eternal hell that awaits the wicked and unrepentant. In order to be "saved" one must be "born again" becoming a son or daughter of God willing to be obedient to all that God commands them to do including the preparatory gospel of repentance and baptism receiving the gift of the holy Ghost.. There is no other way. But, by obeying these simple conditions, one is not only saved, but becomes an heir to all that God has in His very kingdom (the celestial kingdom of heaven).

Edited October 29, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[mrmandias]

As you know, for those who follow the path of logic and reason, entry of the unrepentant wicked into a kingdom of glory (the Telestial Kingdom is one of God's many mansions above which he has prepared for the blessed) doesn't make much sense. After all, how would people of such unrepentant wickedness even come to appreciate a state of existence so glorious and wonderful, we are told, that it is incompressible to man while in mortality.

If you see our salvation choice as purely a binary, repentant or unrepentant, then naturally you would start to have doubts about the three kingdoms doctrine. But if you start with the three kingdoms doctrine as a given and work backwards, you conclude that (1) there are classes of sin, such that some ways of saying 'no' to God are more serious than others and (2) it is possible to say 'no' to God in some things and 'yes' in others. This conclusion is much more true to our experience than the classic doctrine of heaven or hell, and IMHO helps explain why God has put us in such a varied world with so many other people and ways of approaching Him in it. This review of The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis has some discussion on the fifth and sixth pages that I think is helpful:

http://timesandseaso...view-V3-N12.pdf

Basically, the traditional Christian schema (and arguably the Book of Mormon), only sees two eternal possibilities: 100% repentant and righteous or 100% impenitent and wicked. Doctrines like Purgatory don't really change that since they function just to push the time of decision beyond this life or else help to explain how a soul that is not 100% in this life becomes so. But its still just 100%.

Latter-day Christianity sees four main possibilities: total rejection of God and his gifts, grave sins of commission but without total rejection of God and his gifts, sins of omission but otherwise embracing God and his gifts, and total embrace of God. In other words, Mormonism sees the possibility of a human mostly willing to embrace God but refusing to completely forsake sin, and a human mostly willing to reject God but refusing to completely do so. Which fits with Mormonism's respect for, and belief that God respects, the human will.

An important distinction is that 'rejecting God' or being 'unrepentant' or 'impenitent' doesn't necessarily mean rebellious against God or defiant or proud of the sin. It can just be that there is some strain of weakness in the individual that he is ashamed of but too afraid to let go. Neither should we imagine that this weakness means that these people continue to work sin in their kingdom. A drunk could do quite well in a world without alcohol, or a manslaughter could live after the manner of happiness if that range of human emotion that included anger at injustice or ill-treatment were damped down in him.

So, to answer your question, the Telestial Kingdom is the paradise for grave sinners like murderers and adulterers who shrink from repentance where they receive as much of the good as their infirmities allow.

Edited October 29, 2012 by mrmandias

[teddyaware]

This does not mean that those who are resurrected into the telestial kingdom advance onward to exaltation. If this were so, those teaching it are revealing that which is not lawful to be uttered.

I quoted the portion of the Doctrine and Covenants in question simply to say there is much more information on God's plan of salvation yet to come forth. My guess is that if some of these teachings were to be revealed now, there would be a lot of surprises to internalize and digest. I do not pretend to know what any of these now-hidden doctrines might be, but whatever they are they will surely underscore the fact that God is loving, merciful, kind, empathetic and greatly desirous that each and every one of his children grows to reach the full measure of Godly potential they are capable of obtaining.

In spite of the fact that we must confess we do not at this point in time understand the plan of salvation in its entirety, there are some interesting points to ponder from D&C 76. For instance, this great vision clearly teaches that the inheritors of the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms must be capable of some kind of spiritual growth and chararter development. To demonstrate this point, I will twice quote from The Vision and then offer some commentary on each of the quoted sections.

First I quote from D&C 76: 38-43:

38 ...Yea, verily, (the sons of perdition are) the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him."

a. The inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be redeemed by the atonement of Christ. Meaning, they will obtain a remission of their sins and will, in varying degrees, be spiritually empowered to overcome the fallen state and imperfection.

b. The inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be grateful participants in the triumphant victory of Christ over physical and spiritual death.

c. The triumphant salvation of the inheritors Telestial Kingdom is included within the scope of what we call the gospel of Jesus Christ, or the glad tidings of salvation.

d. Christ bore the sins of and suffered physical and spiritual death for the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom. In accord with the same, he cleanses them (forgives them of their sins) from all unrighteousness.

e. The inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom enjoy dwelling within a heavenly mansion governed and blessed by God's holy power.

f. Heavenly Father is pleased and glorified (set forth to be a God of mighty salvation) by having his Only Begotten Son elevate many of beloved children to the enjoy the glory of the Telestial Kingdom, where they are privilaged to bask in a portion of the light, glory and salvation of God.

I next quote from D&C 76: 85-88

"85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation."

a. Much as we do here on earth, the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will enjoy a student/teacher relationship with their Heavenly Father and Christ through the gift of the Holy Spirit.

b. In addition to enjoying a realationship of holy communion with God through the Holy Spirit, the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be ministered to (taught, encouraged and further enlightened) by beings from the Terrestrial Kingdom who have a

face-to-face relationship with Jesus Christ.

c. The inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom are also, at times, ministered to (instructed) by angels (not Christ) from the Celestial Kingdom itself.

d. Interestingly, verse 88 indicates the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be ministered to by these aforesaid angels or ministering spirits from the Celestial Kingdom because they -- the inhabitants of the Telestial Kingdom -- "shall (future tense) be heirs of salvation" -- whatever that means.

At very least, I believe it's safe to say the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom are capable of some kind of progression and improvement. Otherwise, why is there all that ongoing religious instruction? Surely, I think it's also safe to say these visitors to the Telestial Kingdom from the higher heavenly realms are not merely traveling there to mock and cruely rub the faces of those who dwell there in the bitterness and sorrows of their lost opportunities. All indications are that the reason they are ministered to by beings from the higher glories is because the are capable of spiritual learning and growth. Where they will eventually end up we do not know. Perhaps we will learn about their destiny when the unwritten portions of D&C 76 are at last revealed.

[Ahab]

To clarify-

To be "saved" means to be saved from the second death- that eternal hell that awaits the wicked and unrepentant.

Do you mean those who never repent, even after paying the price for their sins? That makes sense, and is true. Those who are sent to spirit prison to pay the price for their sins because they didn't repent before they got there will have to pay the price for those sins they didn't repent from, and then if they sin again after they pay the price of their sins, again, they'll then be sent back to spirit prison again to pay for their sins, again... and they'll have to keep going back to pay the price of their sins as long as they continue to sin and do not repent. It's not like they're going to get a pass from spirit prison just because they were sent there once and got out of it. It's similar to how prison works here among mortals. Repeat offenders are sent back to prison again and again until they stop offending the laws, if they ever do stop.

In order to be "saved" one must be "born again" becoming a son or daughter of God willing to be obedient to all that God commands them to do including the preparatory gospel of repentance and baptism receiving the gift of the holy Ghost.. There is no other way.

Yes, but someone who is going the right way hasn't necessarily gone all the way, though. Suppose someone goes the right way and stops at Terrestrial glory, where they feel comfortable, without going on to Celestial glory? Are you going to tell me you don't believe it is possible for them to stop advancing? What does glory mean to you? Do you think it's just about having a body that lights up like a lightbulb? Glory is all about intelligence, and not everyone is interested in becoming as intelligent as they can possibly be. All it takes to stop advancing in intelligence is to stop acquiring intelligence, and even if someone acquires a little more than they had before it doesn't necessariuly mean they're going to keep learning until they know everything. Some people just aren't interested in learning about some things, not feeling the need to know everything, and some don't even believe it is possible to know everything. Some do, though. There are those who actually do know everything, just as there are some other people who have stopped learning and who keep their wrong ideas even when God has tried repeatedly, and may even still be trying, to teach them more of the truth.

But, by obeying these simple conditions, one is not only saved, but becomes an heir to all that God has in His very kingdom (the celestial kingdom of heaven).

It's all about being willing to learn, Rob. How many people have you known who seem to be stuck on some wrong ideas? Will they ever learn better, and go on to learn everything? I guess we'll see, someday, or at least some of us will. I think only God knows how long it will take, and who will and won't make it.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Ahab

[CV75]

We right now are heirs of the telestial world

***

All of the wheat (the saved) enjoy celestial glory

I am not an heir of this world. It is only my second, temporary and probationary estate. This world is not where my treasure is, and my heart is definitely elsewhere. There is much more to come. My inheritance is to be given to me in another, future estate according to the teachings in D&C 76, 88 and 131. This is why the two-outcome eventuality (celestial glory or perdition) rings false to me.

The other idea that rings fasle is that everyone who makes temple covenants keeps them to the degree the Lord requires, and that everyone who is offered them by proxy actually want and keep them.

[CV75]

there are some interesting points to ponder from D&C 76.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. This is consistent with my understanding of life in the telestial kingdom and accords with what I’ve heard taught in various Church class settings over the years.

In consideration of the three kingdoms of glory, I like emphasizing the Lord’s goodness and grace towards all His children of all stripes, rather than comparing their shortcomings with regards to where they land. It is also clear from D&C 76 where He prefers us to land, and what He sacrificed everything for.

[treeface]

At very least, I believe it's safe to say the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom are capable of some kind of progression and improvement. Otherwise, why is there all that ongoing religious instruction? Surely, I think it's also safe to say these visitors to the Telestial Kingdom from the higher heavenly realms are not merely traveling there to mock and cruely rub the faces of those who dwell there in the bitterness and sorrows of their lost opportunities. All indications are that the reason they are ministered to by beings from the higher glories is because the are capable of spiritual learning and growth. Where they will eventually end up we do not know. Perhaps we will learn about their destiny when the unwritten portions of D&C 76 are at last revealed.

Very good points.

Much we don't know, but I don't think it's out of place to put ourselves in God's sandals, and imagine how we would behave towards our own prodigal sons and daughters. Some laws are written in our hearts instead of in books of scripture.

[Rob Osborn]

I am not an heir of this world. It is only my second, temporary and probationary estate. This world is not where my treasure is, and my heart is definitely elsewhere. There is much more to come. My inheritance is to be given to me in another, future estate according to the teachings in D&C 76, 88 and 131. This is why the two-outcome eventuality (celestial glory or perdition) rings false to me.

The other idea that rings fasle is that everyone who makes temple covenants keeps them to the degree the Lord requires, and that everyone who is offered them by proxy actually want and keep them.

I see heaven as still having differing degrees of glory. Where I differ from mainstream lds doctrine is that I do not believe in three separate worlds of glory for where the saved dwell. There are way too many contradictions and paradoxes concerning this teaching that causes me to perhaps realize that we are not seeing the bigger picture here. For instance, take the Terrestrial glory for instance- They will be ministered to by Christ but not the Father. Why? Will not Christ have the same glory as the Father? Why Christ then and not the Father also? Also, will Christ's visits be just temporary from time to time? I thought Christ was supposed to reign on his throne in Celestial glory by the Father's side to go no more out? And then of course, you have the Telestial glory people who will be having "spirits" ministering to them from a higher order of glory....wait a minute here- everyone is suppose to be resurrected right? How can you have spirits ministering to them if everyone is already resurrected? And then you have the Holy Ghost who is supposed to be a single personage of spirit. Why does He never receive a body for all eternity? Is it really His job to be their Holy Ghost for all eternity?

[Rob Osborn]

Are these scriptures speaking of ministering to the same group-

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth. D&C 7:6

If this earth is the "Telestial kingdom" as the temple states, are these twoverses speaking of the same group?

[harfad]

CV75, I belive your analysis of the scriptures is faulty. Here is a typical quote:

(for verily your faith is weak) [only the weak in faith would prematurely pluck up the tares without waiting for the full endowment the Lord plans to prepare His kingdom with]

The "weak in faith" are the ones who would be harmed by a premature judgement on the "tares," not the ones calling for such a judgement. Those calling for the judgement are the "angels" who are assigned that responsibility, and cannot wait long enough "reap down the fiekds," and consign the wicked to their rightful place.

I find your methodology for analysing and discussing the scriptures to amount to innovation rather than analysis or interpretation. You are inventing things out of whole cloth which bear no relationship to the scripture you are supposedly analysing or interpretting.

[CV75]

I find your methodology for analysing and discussing the scriptures to amount to innovation rather than analysis or interpretation. You are inventing things out of whole cloth which bear no relationship to the scripture you are supposedly analysing or interpretting.

Bingo! It was an attempt to do the same thing that Rob is doing, except the conclusions I put forth are correct while his are not.

[CV75]

I see heaven as still having differing degrees of glory. Where I differ from mainstream lds doctrine is that I do not believe in three separate worlds of glory for where the saved dwell.

I don’t think this is too far from mainstream, if by “world” you mean “location.” I’ve heard the three degrees of glory (and all their increments) might occupy one place, but the inhabitants tolerate only as much glory as they are willing to receive on the celestialized earth—they dwell in different neighborhoods or realities. This is how righteous parents can still have claim upon their wayward children and minister to them.

There are way too many contradictions and paradoxes concerning this teaching that causes me to perhaps realize that we are not seeing the bigger picture here.

Of course there is a bigger picture. If this is the case, where do all the spirits born of heavenly parents reside, and how are they kept from the influence of lesser kingdoms (or are they...ooooh!)?

For instance, take the Terrestrial glory for instance- They will be ministered to by Christ but not the Father. Why? Will not Christ have the same glory as the Father? Why Christ then and not the Father also?

The glory is what the inhabitants abide by, not what is ministered upon them by the Exalted Christ. The Father delivered them into Christ’s hands, and they receive Him to a degree; this is how He can minister some things to them. The Father delivered the telestials into Christ’s hands also, but He cannot force His ministrations upon them; they do however accept what can come to them by the Holy Ghost. This is how your view about this life is similar: some can bear all or part of the Light of Christ; others all or part of the power of the Holy Ghost; others can bear visits with the Lord; others can bear the presence of the Father. Each depending on their ability to be quickened in the flesh.

Also, will Christ's visits be just temporary from time to time? I thought Christ was supposed to reign on his throne in Celestial glory by the Father's side to go no more out?

His visits could be temporary; they could be by delegation; they could be what the inhabitants are capable of discerning or feeling… “to go no more out” means to descend below all things and be subject to the punishments He suffered—He won’t do that anymore.

And then of course, you have the Telestial glory people who will be having "spirits" ministering to them from a higher order of glory....wait a minute here- everyone is suppose to be resurrected right? How can you have spirits ministering to them if everyone is already resurrected?

Man is spirit. Spirit and element, inseparably connected have a fullness of joy, and God is still Spirit, and so is man. Evidently the ministration they receive may not always be by way of personal, physical contact or presence, but in spirit. They could be ministered to by the same persons that were ministering spirits to them while they were in prison, but who are now angels, and again on a spiritual and not personal basis.

And then you have the Holy Ghost who is supposed to be a single personage of spirit. Why does He never receive a body for all eternity? Is it really His job to be their Holy Ghost for all eternity?

Who says He never receives a body? Man is always spirit, whether he has a body or not. God also is always Spirit, whether He has a body or not.

***

I do not see how any of this supports the idea that all telestial people are eventually exalted.