Inheritors Of The Telestial Kingdom

[Ahab]

Good point about the appropriateness of the present tense--so true.

I like it when other people agree with me, and I with them.

Where justification means pardon of sin (guiltless), and sanctification means free from the effects of sin (being pure, clean and holy), I still see a subtle difference with the term "washed clean." Only briefly so as not to derail: when one pays for his own sins, he may be pardoned for them, but still lacks the "spiritual currency" to be free from the effects of sin. In other words, he is not holy enough to dwell in a higher kingdom of glory. This is why telestial people cannot progress onward to exaltation. Ceasing to do evil (which I think being washed clean means) is not the same as becoming holy, which requires much labor of good.

You seem to agree on what I said earlier and it seems you are using the word "holy" for what I talked about as the process of becoming a better and better person, as we become more like our Father in heaven. I agree that becoming clean doesn't make us like our Father in heaven. We need to receive more and more intelligence from God and live by what he gives us, otherwise we'll stay stuck in a certain lower order of glory (intelligence) even if we are clean.

[Ahab]

Except that what you call "spirit prison" in some scriptural contexts is also called "hell;" so you can't win in either way. So I tend to use words and expressions that, in a given context, the Spirit and my knowledge of the scriptures suggest would be most appropriate.

Ack! There must be some way to win here! I won and you just didn't admit it!

Anyway, whether or not you agree, I'm going to now use the term spirit prison to refer to the temporary place where we are until we're resurrected, while referring to Hell as the permanent place. They're both spirit prisons, or prisons for spirits, but the difference is how long someone stays in prison.

[harfad]

Ack! There must be some way to win here! I won and you just didn't admit it!

Anyway, whether or not you agree, I'm going to now use the term spirit prison to refer to the temporary place where we are until we're resurrected, while referring to Hell as the permanent place. They're both spirit prisons, or prisons for spirits, but the difference is how long someone stays in prison.

"Hell" is a very generalised term in scripture which is used to refer to any unhappy place or condition, or place of punishment, that one may experience after death, be it temporary in the spirit world, or more permanently after the resurrection. "Outer darkness" is not such a generalised term, and is used exclusively to refer to the unhappy condition of unrighteous spirits in the spirit world.

[Rob Osborn]

Yes, and when we sin we should repent, otherwise we'll keep committing that particular sin. That doesn't necessarily mean we won't have repented from some other sins we have already repented from, though.

You do understand that repentance is all about not doing something anymore, right? Well what if you keep doing (or believing) something which isn't good and you don't ever repent from that particular sin, but yet you repent from some other sins?

Suppose you're in a condition where you have accepted 99% of the will of God in your life and you have only 1% left to repent from and you don't even try to repent from that thing, maybe because you don't believe that particular thing is wrong, even though you have been taught that partiuclar thing is wrong. You're not ignorant, at that point. You've been taught and yet you refuse to accept the will of God in that particular area of your own life, which is the reason you can't move on to experience the other 1% you are missing.

Suppose you are in that condition, Rob. So what would happen to you, if you never repented... never stopped doing or believing that thing which was not an intelligent thing to be doing or believing. Do you really suppose you'd be sent away with Satan and his minions, or might there be some other place for you? Or do you think you'd be allowed to enter the Celestial kingdom anyway even though there was 1 thing you didn't repent from and you refused to even believe you needed to repent from it.

As long as they repent from all their sins. If they repent from only some of their sins they only get partial credit, though. Credit for the good stuff they do and have accepted into their own life, and dinged for the bad stuff they do and don't repent from.

Only if you repent 100%, Rob, otherwise you're still at least partialy dirty even though you can be at least a little bit clean.

Those who will be in the Celestial kingdom will not be committing any sin whatsoever. Not all will be experiencing the same blessings as everyone else, because some won't have complied with the laws of God in some area, but not anything people do or haven't done there will be a sin. Marriage, for example, is optional, and the fact that someone isn't married won't necessarily deprive them of being worthy of the Celestial order of glory.

Right, but within that one kingdom there are different orders of glory based on how much intelligence from God each person has accepted into their own life. Thus, in the kingdom of God on Earth there are those who are worthy of either the Telestial or Terrestrial or Celestial orders of heaven, or not fit for any one of those orders of glory.

Think of it like this- the kingdom of God in heaven is divided into 3 main categories, either a Telestial or Terrestrial or Celestial orders of heaven, and only in the Celestial order of heaven will you find the most valiant Christians who are members of the true Church of Jesus Christ. The less valiant members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be in either one of the lower orders of heaven or they won't be in any order of glory at all, just the same as anyone outside of the Church.

Sheep and goats, or wheat and tares, or saved and damned, can be divided into other subcategories too, though. A sheep can be unblemished and the perfect example of a sheep or it can have something wrong with it which would get it culled out of the group of the best sheep.... just the same as a goat or wheat or tares or saved or damned. To the extent someone is not saved they are damned.

I wonder what it's going to take for you to see the error or your way, Rob. Or will you go on believing this error forever.

Who knows, you may end up in either the Telestial or Terrestrial order of heaven and think you are in the Celestial order without ever realizing you're not on the same planet as those of the Celestial order. Or then again, maybe someday you'll learn better.

My understanding of the scriptures has me to believe that through the atonement all will be saved from their sins by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. When I read the parable of the wheat and the tares I am left without doubt that all the saved get saved into celestial glory here on this earth.

[harfad]

My understanding of the scriptures has me to believe that through the atonement all will be saved from their sins by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. When I read the parable of the wheat and the tares I am left without doubt that all the saved get saved into celestial glory here on this earth.

You can only believe that by completely disregarding D&C 76. It is impossible to "reinterpret" that to accommodate your particular point of view.

[Rob Osborn]

You can only believe that by completely disregarding D&C 76. It is impossible to "reinterpret" that to accommodate your particular point of view.

I dont just disregard section 76, I just view it a little different. I cant just throw out the parabke of the wheat and tares either.

[Cold Steel]

Basically there are three different types of people in the world: 1) those who are exceedingly good and seek God to know his will and obey it; 2) those who are decent, honorable, vote Republican or Libertarian, but just don't feel the desire to seek out God, or, for that matter, even finding out if there is a God. And finally, 3) those who seem to be born "bad to the bone." These are your rapists, murderers, war mongers and real estate agents.

Seriously, I'm of the opinion that most people born into mortality will end up in the Telestial Kingdom. I think you need to have a little salt to get to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and I don't see that in most people. Now some things I would teach an investigator and other things I wouldn't. But I'm putting it all on the table here.

First, I really do think many people are born bad. These are the kids that torture kittens and other animals and do other disturbing things, then graduate to other atrocities as they get older. I also have some similar ideas when it comes to evil spirits. In other words, I don't think that all evil spirits are of the same wickedness. Some are worse than others, and some don't give a damn about Satan or us; they just want to be left alone. For example, on the night that W. Woodruff, P. Pratt, Heber C. Kimball and O. Hyde were attacked in London, they were delivered by heavenly messengers.

Elder Hyde recorded: "Every circumstance that occurred at that scene of devils is just as fresh in my recollection at this moment as it was at the moment of its occurrence, and will ever remain so. After you [Elder Kimball] were overcome by them and had fallen, their awful rush upon me with knives, threats, imprecations and hellish grins amply convinced me that they were no friends of mine. While you were apparently senseless and lifeless on the floor and upon the bed (after we laid you there), I stood between you and the devils and fought them and contended against them face to face until they began to diminish in number, and to retreat from the room. The last imp that left turned round to me as he was going out and said, as if to apologize and appease my determined opposition to them, `I never said anything against you!' I replied to him thus: `It matters not to me whether you have or have not; you are a liar from the beginning! In the name of Jesus Christ, depart!' He immediately left, and the room was clear. That closed the scene of devils for that time."

This last imp was happy to watch the excitement, even if he didn't participate in it, but apparently he didn't believe his casting out was just. Still, he had made his bed and must lie in it. The decision to rebel in the beginning had been his, and to Elder Hyde that was all that mattered. But my point is, there are undoubtedly lazy, shiftless spirits who have nothing to fight for, and their loyalty to Satan and his minions are lackluster. At the same time there are also evil spirits who, for whatever their reasons, decided to cast their lots with Christ. Maybe they knew that Lucifer didn't have a chance and wanted to be on a winning team. But they were born bad and will die bad. Some might convert, but they'd be long shots.

Rob Osborn' timestamp='1349754529' post='1209184736']My views have changed so drastically over the years.... I believe we are already in the Telestial kingdom as is spoken of in scripture so for me it is more of a question on what did I do to inherit the kingdom I now live in.

I feel that way sometimes. Maybe I'm just going through life reviews and everyone else is my imagination. In which case YOU don't even exist. But if that's so, when do I find out what I did to get here and how many times do I have to relive this before moving on?

"Oh, how can you be in two places at once, when you're not anywhere at all...llll?"

One thing I do know, and that's the difference between the Telestial Kingdom and Hell. The answer is...ice cream! Rocky Road!

[Hogmeister]

"Words of the Prophets," p. 24, Franklin D. Richards. Now that you ask the question, I have to admit I have never seen the book. Now I want to see it. I looked for publications which have quoted from it and found one authoritative citation from a document hosted at BYU Idaho. The link is http://emp.byui.edu/...sPriesthood.pdf . Judge for yourself.

Incidentally...my stored summary of page 24 is 1. Franklin D. Richards, "Words of the Prophets," p. 24, Church Historians Office. (This is a small booklet kept by Brother Richards of the statements made by Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith.) "Hiram [smith] said Aug 1st. Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial or else the moon would not be a type, [because] it 'waxes & wanes.'"

Could it be that Hyrum Smith was talking about the church (Gods kingdom on earth) as a type of the Terrestial kingdom. The members of this church (and maybe also the church on the whole) is very much in the waxing & waning phase much of the time. At least until Zion is fully established. I can see this going on where terrestial glory is enjoyed.

[Hogmeister]

I think the basic concept is similar, sans the animal components. I recall coming across a statement by Heber C. Kimball that implied we would come back and continue our work if we didn't finish it this go-round. Jesus spoke of two resurrections, the "resurrection of the just" and the "resurrection of judgment", and I've heard it argued that maybe the latter is what we call "reincarnation".

But I'm no expert, so here's a link to an interesting series of articles on the subject which brings up some possible evidences from the scriptures that I wouldn't have thought of:

http://www.freeread.com/archives/2286

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

If you study the gnostic schools of the 2-4 century you will find very similar thoughts on "series of probations" until you finally progress further. That said, the gnostics did put a "time-limit" to when the "series of probations" would come to an end, when the number of souls would be fulfilled (don't procrastinate because you might not get another probation). Some gnostics also taught (what is recorded at least) that work for the dead (baptism and endowment) will under certain conditions help the deceased progress without another probation or lead to a more favorable probation at next rebirth. You will find a lot of interesting stuff in the Pistis Sophia text that really confirm the "far-out" doctrines of our church, but remember the revelation to JS about studying the apochrypha. The spirit of revelation is key when truth and untruth are mixed.

[CV75]

I dont just disregard section 76, I just view it a little different. I cant just throw out the parabke of the wheat and tares either.

This is interesting, as it reflects the perspective of those who view the parable of the wheat and the tares differently in the added light of D&C 76 (the degrees of glory among the saved and the damned).

[Rob Osborn]

The interesting thing about the oarable of the wheat and the tares is that in latter day times this parable is brought up again by our Lord. He further states how the saints want to pluck out the righteous already fron the tares but the Lord says to wait, to allow them to further develop so that the wheat can all be stored in thw garners to enjoy celestial glory. Its as if we as saints tend to get impatient and want to harvest out the bad as if we think we know that the lost sheep will never come and join the church. We are nearsighted in that respect. The parable of the wheat and tares is revealed in latter day thatthe garners are the temples and that we are storing in them the names of all the saved. When they are full at the end of the millennium then all of them will go into celestial glory while the tares are burned.

[CV75]

The interesting thing about the oarable of the wheat and the tares is that in latter day times this parable is brought up again by our Lord. He further states how the saints want to pluck out the righteous already fron the tares but the Lord says to wait, to allow them to further develop so that the wheat can all be stored in thw garners to enjoy celestial glory. Its as if we as saints tend to get impatient and want to harvest out the bad as if we think we know that the lost sheep will never come and join the church. We are nearsighted in that respect. The parable of the wheat and tares is revealed in latter day thatthe garners are the temples and that we are storing in them the names of all the saved. When they are full at the end of the millennium then all of them will go into celestial glory while the tares are burned.

But the same general lesson was taught in Jacob 5, except the Lord of the vineyard was the one on the ready to destroy the corrupted trees. The point is that the good and the bad grow together for the Lord’s own purposes, which is clearly explained in D&C 86:

Verse 3 teaches that the tares are the false and corrupted teachings, ordinances and authorities that led to the great apostasy after the apostles’ deaths and which replaced the true doctrines in the earth, or the field (verse 3). The restoration of the true teachings, ordinances, and authorities (the wheat) rolls forth sequentially in the last days (verse 4) line upon line, precept upon precept.

“Reaping the fields” (verse 5) refers to the preparation of the earth for the Second Coming. The earth will be cleansed temporally and spiritually to receive the Lord. This cleansing involves the destruction of the wicked, either through their giving heed to the latter-day destructions and judgments and repenting (thus being spared), or through their physical removal.

The restoration of true teachings happens gradually, and as the kingdom expands, false teachings, ordinances, and authorities will be clearly exposed for what they are and rejected (verses 6, 7). This occurs in conjunction with the reaping of the fields in such a way as to give the inhabitants of the earth who are deceived by the tares time to receive the restored wheat, and to give the restored kingdom the infrastructure to grow the wheat and thus prepare itself temporally and spiritually.

As instruments of the Lord, those with the priesthood keys will bring forth and preserve the restored wheat until all things have been properly restored (verses 8-10). So I think the parable has more to do with managing the growth of the restoration and the ruin of apostate substitutes than it has to do with the judgment and separation of individuals into two groups.

None of this counters D&C 76, which is part of the restoration of all truth anyway.

[harfad]

The interesting thing about the oarable of the wheat and the tares is that in latter day times this parable is brought up again by our Lord. He further states how the saints want to pluck out the righteous already fron the tares but the Lord says to wait, to allow them to further develop so that the wheat can all be stored in thw garners to enjoy celestial glory. Its as if we as saints tend to get impatient and want to harvest out the bad as if we think we know that the lost sheep will never come and join the church. We are nearsighted in that respect. The parable of the wheat and tares is revealed in latter day thatthe garners are the temples and that we are storing in them the names of all the saved. When they are full at the end of the millennium then all of them will go into celestial glory while the tares are burned.

Your careless reading of the scriptures continues unabated. Read D&C 86:5. It is not the "saints" who are impatient about the destruction of the "tares," but the angels who are charged with role of destroying them anyway, when the right time comes. The reason why the parable is presented as a black or white dichotomy is because the telestial, terrestrial, and SOPs are all bundled together as "tares," while only the celestial are categorised as "wheat". Don't forget that only the celestial rise together with Jesus to reign on earth for a 1000 years. The rest are "punished" in various ways.

The parable of the wheat and the tares convey the same meaning as the parable of the ten virgins. They tell the same story. The "wise" virgins are the ones who have "received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived" (D&C 45:57). These shall "abide the day" (of Secod Coming), and "shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire". These are the "wheat". All the rest are classified as "tares," be they of the telestial order or SOPs. The black and white presentation does not mean there are only two categories--the saved or the damned. Rather, it is the Lord's way of telling us that He wants all to be celestial; and that everyone who is not is deficient in some way.

[Rob Osborn]

Your careless reading of the scriptures continues unabated. Read D&C 86:5. It is not the "saints" who are impatient about the destruction of the "tares," but the angels who are charged with role of destroying them anyway, when the right time comes. The reason why the parable is presented as a black or white dichotomy is because the telestial, terrestrial, and SOPs are all bundled together as "tares," while only the celestial are categorised as "wheat". Don't forget that only the celestial rise together with Jesus to reign on earth for a 1000 years. The rest are "punished" in various ways.

The parable of the wheat and the tares convey the same meaning as the parable of the ten virgins. They tell the same story. The "wise" virgins are the ones who have "received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived" (D&C 45:57). These shall "abide the day" (of Secod Coming), and "shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire". These are the "wheat". All the rest are classified as "tares," be they of the telestial order or SOPs. The black and white presentation does not mean there are only two categories--the saved or the damned. Rather, it is the Lord's way of telling us that He wants all to be celestial; and that everyone who is not is deficient in some way.

The parable is simple. You are trying to classify saved souls as part of the tares- that is careless. the tares are the sons of the devil. Christ doesnt save the sons of satan. The wheat are all stored in the garners to receive celestial glory. There are no other outcomes in the parable and for good reason. The Lord is trying to show us the singularity ofof Gods kingdom. Why do you suppose there is only one fold and one shepherd? Do you really think God is gonna kick off the terrestrial inhabitants off the earth after they have spent the entire millennium building up the kingdom under Christs direction?

I dont think so.

[Rob Osborn]

But the same general lesson was taught in Jacob 5, except the Lord of the vineyard was the one on the ready to destroy the corrupted trees. The point is that the good and the bad grow together for the Lord’s own purposes, which is clearly explained in D&C 86:

Verse 3 teaches that the tares are the false and corrupted teachings, ordinances and authorities that led to the great apostasy after the apostles’ deaths and which replaced the true doctrines in the earth, or the field (verse 3). The restoration of the true teachings, ordinances, and authorities (the wheat) rolls forth sequentially in the last days (verse 4) line upon line, precept upon precept.

“Reaping the fields” (verse 5) refers to the preparation of the earth for the Second Coming. The earth will be cleansed temporally and spiritually to receive the Lord. This cleansing involves the destruction of the wicked, either through their giving heed to the latter-day destructions and judgments and repenting (thus being spared), or through their physical removal.

The restoration of true teachings happens gradually, and as the kingdom expands, false teachings, ordinances, and authorities will be clearly exposed for what they are and rejected (verses 6, 7). This occurs in conjunction with the reaping of the fields in such a way as to give the inhabitants of the earth who are deceived by the tares time to receive the restored wheat, and to give the restored kingdom the infrastructure to grow the wheat and thus prepare itself temporally and spiritually.

As instruments of the Lord, those with the priesthood keys will bring forth and preserve the restored wheat until all things have been properly restored (verses 8-10). So I think the parable has more to do with managing the growth of the restoration and the ruin of apostate substitutes than it has to do with the judgment and separation of individuals into two groups.

None of this counters D&C 76, which is part of the restoration of all truth anyway.

The tares are the wicked children of satan. the wheat are the children of God. This parable has everything to do with separation of two separate peopkes.

[harfad]

The parable is simple. You are trying to classify saved souls as part of the tares-

Wrong! The telestial are "saved" after their punishment in hell. So to begin with they are classified with the "tares," because they are sent to hell for punishment. Read about the parable of the ten virgins in the D&C again. The "foolish virgins" are not necessarily forever damned. They have just been foolish, failed to heed the Spirit, and avoid deception. They are simply the "careless" ones!

Edited October 27, 2012 by harfad

[teddyaware]

Wrong! The telestial are "saved" after their punishment in hell. So to begin with they are classified with the "tares," because they are sent to hell for punishment. Read about the parable of the ten virgins in the D&C again. The "foolish virgins" are not necessarily forever damned. They have just been foolish, failed to heed the Spirit, and avoid deception. They are simply the "careless" ones!

Hi there harfad!

I started this thread because I wanted to make the points you have been making here, but my busy life got in the way of persuing my objective. It's great to know there's someone out there who's figured this out, as I worried I might be the only one who "discovered" the actual destiny of the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom, as revealed in D&C 76, D&C 88, and D&C 138.

As I want to see if you've taken things on this point as far along as I have, here's a question for you: Do you believe a proper understanding of the destiny of the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom vindicates Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon as far as the plan of salvation is concerned? As you likely know, for many years critics and uninformed members have been saying the plan of salvation as revealed in the Book of Mormon doesn't harmonize and square with the Prophet Joseph's later teachings in D&C 76. These critics say the plan of salvation, as explained in D&C 76, is an innovation, a later doctrinal developement that supercedes and quite nearly obsoletes the teachings on the plan of salvation found in the Book of Mormon.

On the other hand, after coming to the same realization you have, I now believe the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants are in perfect harmony with each other on the subject of the atonement and plan of salvation. Bottom line? All except for the sons of perdition will eventually come unto Christ and exercise living faith in him and in his sacrifice, repent of their sins and be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, receive the Holy Spirit (Gift of the Holy Ghost) into their souls and inherit one of the glorious mansions in heaven Christ has prepared for those who come unto him with broken hearts and contrite spirits. Therefore, the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants are in agreement with each other when it comes to a theology that teaches God's children are either going to be saved by reliance on atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ or be cast out God's presence into outer darkeness and perdition. What do you think?

All the best, Ted

Edited October 28, 2012 by teddyaware

[harfad]

Do you believe a proper understanding of the destiny of the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom vindicates Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon as far as the plan of salvation is concerned? As you likely know, for many years critics and uninformed members have been saying the plan of salvation revealed in the Book of Mormon doesn't harmonize and square with the Prophet Joseph's later teachings in D&C 76. These critics say the plan of salvation, as explained in D&C 76, is an innovation a later doctrinal developement that quite supercedes and quite nearly obsoletes the teachings on the plan of salvation found in the Book of Mormon.

On the other hand, after coming to the same realization you have, I now believe the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants are in perfect harmony with each other on the subject of the atonement and plan of salvation. Bottom line? All except for the sons of perdition will eventually come unto Christ and exercise living faith in him and in his sacrifice, repent of their sins and be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, receive the Holy Spirit (Gift of the Holy Ghost) into their souls and inherit one of the glorious mansions in heaven Christ has prepared for those who come unto him with broken hearts and contrite spirits. Therefore, the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants are in agreement with each other when it comes to a theology that teaches God's children are either going to be saved by reliance on atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ or be cast out God's presence into outer darkeness and perdition. What do you think?

I agree with you. I don't see a contradiction between the doctrinal developments in the D&C and BoM (or Bible for that matter). I see it as continuation of, and expansion on existing doctrine. What is the point of claiming the power to receive new revelation, and to add to the scriptural canon, if that new revelation is not going to increase our knowledge, and tell us things we didn't know before? This is a dispensation in which God has promised not only to reveal all that has been revealed before, but even things which has never been revealed before. It is a bit stupid to make that claim, and then balk every time God tells us something we hadn't known before.

[CV75]

The tares are the wicked children of satan. the wheat are the children of God. This parable has everything to do with separation of two separate peopkes.

Apostles—sowers of the wheat seed (the doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel according to the keys).

Satan—sower of the tares (the corrupted doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel without the keys).

While the tares choked out the wheat (apostasy), in the last days the restored doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel are growing up in the field.

Gathering out the wheat symbolizes the dominions of the saints upon the earth, which are small because of the wickedness and abominations of the devil (1 Nephi 14:12), which is the whore, the church of the devil, etc. In due time Satan and his kingdom will be bound (D&C 88:7) and destroyed.

I don't see where the wheat and the tares refers specificcally to people in D&C 86. Can you exlain?

[CV75]

Therefore, the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants are in agreement with each other when it comes to a theology that teaches God's children are either going to be saved by reliance on atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ or be cast out God's presence into outer darkeness and perdition. What do you think?

With respect then, to the OP, explaining "what the Lord's qualifications are that have to be met in order for an individual to inherit the Telestial Kingdom of glory" means explaining that they have to be saved (resurrected) and abide the ministration of the Holy Ghost after having ample opportunity to rely upon the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

[harfad]

Apostles—sowers of the wheat seed (the doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel according to the keys).

Satan—sower of the tares (the corrupted doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel without the keys).

While the tares choked out the wheat (apostasy), in the last days the restored doctrines, covenants, ordinances of the Gospel are growing up in the field.

Gathering out the wheat symbolizes the dominions of the saints upon the earth, which are small because of the wickedness and abominations of the devil (1 Nephi 14:12), which is the whore, the church of the devil, etc. In due time Satan and his kingdom will be bound (D&C 88:7) and destroyed.

I don't see where the wheat and the tares refers specificcally to people in D&C 86. Can you exlain?

The wheat and the tares does refer to people, see verse 6. The question is, what kinds of people.

Edited October 28, 2012 by harfad

[CV75]

The wheat and the tares does refer to people, see verse 6. The question is, what kinds of people.

I still maintain the tares are the apostate church of the devil and the wheat the restored hurch. The kingdom of the devil cannot be destroyed before the kingdom of God is more fully established (only those who arew eak in faith would see this as a correct course of action, since agency would be overrun and an incomplete blessing rendered).

[teddyaware]

I agree with you. I don't see a contradiction between the doctrinal developments in the D&C and BoM (or Bible for that matter). I see it as continuation of, and expansion on existing doctrine. What is the point of claiming the power to receive new revelation, and to add to the scriptural canon, if that new revelation is not going to increase our knowledge, and tell us things we didn't know before? This is a dispensation in which God has promised not only to reveal all that has been revealed before, but even things which has never been revealed before. It is a bit stupid to make that claim, and then balk every time God tells us something we hadn't known before.

Thanks for the response.

I believe Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Mahonri Moriancumer, Mormon, Moroni. as well as others of the prophets who participated in producing the enscribed plates that have become our Book of Mormon, knew all about the more advanced teachings on the plan of salvation as set forth in D&C 76, D&C 88, and D&C 138. Here's a quote from 3 Nephi 26 that demonstrates the Nephites knew well the advanced doctrines that we are also privilaged to enjoy a knowledge of today:

"1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.

2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.

3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;"

The reason why these prophets held back on revealing much of the advanced doctrine pertaining to the plan of salvastion, revealed to them, for instance, by the brother of Jared and the Lord himself, is because they were commanded of God to withhold much of the advanced doctrine they knew. The Lord explains this point as I quote again from 3 Nephi 26:

"7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

12 Therefore I, Mormon, do write the things (lesser things) which have been commanded me of the Lord.

The good news here is that the faith of the saints was tried and proven. For after first gladly receiving the Book of Mormon, which is the lesser portion of the word, the saints were given the more advanced doctrines contained in the Doctrine and Covenants and in the Temples of the Lord as a reward for their faith

So it is my belief that the prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon knew all about the three degrees of glory, and the fact that even those in the lowest kingdom of glory must first sincerely come unto Christ and receive salvation and mercy at his hand, as a reward for their repentance and faith. And this after first learning to surrender to God's love by the application of the divine tough-love they will experience while in a disembodied state of existence prior to their resurrection that the scriptures call hell. Joseph Fielding Smith, in his Doctrines of Salvation put it this way:

"They (the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom) have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world."

So even the inhabitants of the lowest kingdom will be followers of Christ. All, except for the sons of perdition, will freely and happily confess Jesus Christ is the source of their light, life and salvation. This glorious revelation of God's love, compassion, kindness and longsuffering sets LDS theology lightyears ahead of all others. It is verily true and the way a God of true love would deal with his beloved sons and daughters.

Edited October 28, 2012 by teddyaware

[harfad]

I still maintain the tares are the apostate church of the devil and the wheat the restored hurch. The kingdom of the devil cannot be destroyed before the kingdom of God is more fully established (only those who arew eak in faith would see this as a correct course of action, since agency would be overrun and an incomplete blessing rendered).

In either case, the "tares" (and the "wheat") refer to people, not doctrines, practices, or teachings.

[harfad]

Thanks for the response.

I believe Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Mahonri Moriancumer, Mormon, Moroni. as well as others of the prophets who participated in producing the enscribed plates that have become our Book of Mormon, knew all about the more advanced teachings on the plan of salvation as set forth in D&C 76, D&C 88, and D&C 138. Here's a quote from 3 Nephi 26 that demonstrates the Nephites knew well the advanced doctrines that we are also privilaged to enjoy a knowledge of today:

"1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.

2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.

3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;"

The reason why these prophets held back on revealing much of the advanced doctrine pertaining to the plan of salvastion, revealed to them, for instance, by the brother of Jared and the Lord himself, is because they were commanded of God to withhold much of the advanced doctrine they knew. The Lord explains this point as I quote again from 3 Nephi 26:

"7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

12 Therefore I, Mormon, do write the things (lesser things) which have been commanded me of the Lord.

The good news here is that the faith of the saints was tried and proven. For after first gladly receiving the Book of Mormon, which is the lesser portion of the word, the saints were given the more advanced doctrines contained in the Doctrine and Covenants and in the Temples of the Lord as a reward for their faith

So it is my belief that the prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon knew all about the three degrees of glory, and the fact that even those in the lowest kingdom of glory must first sincerely come unto Christ and receive salvation and mercy at his hand, as a reward for their repentance and faith. And this after first learning to surrender to God's love by the application of the divine tough-love they will experience while in a disembodied state of existence prior to their resurrection that the scriptures call hell. Joseph Fielding Smith, in his Doctrines of Salvation put it this way:

"They (the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom) have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world."

So even the inhabitants of the lowest kingdom will be followers of Christ. All, except for the sons of perdition, will freely and happily confess Jesus Christ is the source of their light, life and salvation. This glorious revelation of God's love, compassion, kindness and longsuffering sets LDS theology lightyears ahead of all others. It is verily true and the way a God of true love would deal with his beloved sons and daughters.

I am sure the Nephites had many great mysteries revealed to them which the Lord has not revealed to us yet; but it does not logically follow that everything that God has revealed to us in this dispensation, such as the vision of the three degrees of glory for example, He should have revealed to them.