Polytheism

[Tacenda]

And what Christian faith believes this?

Well it's probably Rob Bowman's belief.

[Calm]

I highly doubt it. I think it's pretty rare, I can only think of the Oneness Pentecostals believing this, if I remember correctly. You are thinking of modalism, which is considered a heresy by most traditional Christians.

The Incarnation in traditional Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ the second person of the Trinity, also known as God the Son or the Logos (Word), "became flesh" by being conceived in the womb of a woman, the Virgin Mary, also known as theTheotokos (God-bearer).

The Oneness view of the Incarnation

In contrast to the traditional view of the Incarnation cited above, adherents of Oneness Pentecostalism believe in the doctrine of Oneness. Although both Oneness and traditional Christianity teach that God is a singular Spirit, Oneness adherents reject the idea that God is a Trinity of persons. Oneness doctrine teaches there is one God who manifests himself in different ways, as opposed to a Trinity, where God is seen as one being consisting of three distinct persons. To a Oneness Pentecostal, Jesus is seen as both fully divine and fully human. The term Father refers to God Himself, who caused the conception of the Son in Mary, thus becoming the father of the child she bore. The term Son refers to the body Jesus dwelt in, and the Holy Ghost refers to the manifestation of God's Spirit inside of and around His people. Thus the Father is not the Son — and this distinction is crucial — but is in the Son as the fullness of his divine nature.[citation needed] Traditional Trinitarians believe that the Son always existed as the eternal second person of the Trinity; Oneness adherents believe that the Son did not come into being until the Incarnation, when the one and only true God took on human flesh for the first, last and only time in history. Oneness doctrine is explained in detail in UPCI minister Dr. David K. Bernard's The Oneness of God.

http://en.wikipedia....n_(Christianity)

Edited September 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I highly doubt it. I think it's pretty rare, I can only think of the Oneness Pentecostals believing this, if I remember correctly. You are thinking of modalism, which is considered a heresy by most traditional Christians.

http://en.wikipedia....n_(Christianity)

I know for a fact the group that follow Shawn McCraney's views believe Jesus is God. He tells a story to explain it ...think of a candle that's lit and take two other candles which represent Jesus and the Holy Ghost and they get lit by the main candle (God) until they are one flame, three in one, the Godhead.

[Calm]

I don't know about Shawn McCraney but if they are modalist as I said they are considered heretics by traditional Trinitarians.

[Tacenda]

I highly doubt it. I think it's pretty rare, I can only think of the Oneness Pentecostals believing this, if I remember correctly. You are thinking of modalism, which is considered a heresy by most traditional Christians.

http://en.wikipedia....n_(Christianity)

This is some deep stuff. To me anyway.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Tacenda

[Calm]

This is some deep stuff. To me anyway.

If you decide to leave the LDS faith, you should try very hard to understand the Trinity as well as you can before doing so and how it compares to the Bible. It would be a shame to leave over a misunderstanding.

And don't assume that Shawn McCraney is either an authority on the LDS faith or Biblical Christianity or traditional Christianity for that matter.

Edited September 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

If you decide to leave the LDS faith, you should try very hard to understand the Trinity as well as you can before doing so and how it compares to the Bible. It would be a shame to leave over a misunderstanding.

And don't assume that Shawn McCraney is either an authority on the LDS faith or Biblical Christianity or traditional Christianity for that matter.

Cal, it would take alot for me to leave. I think truth can be found in so many faiths but being LDS is in my blood. Whether anyone believes this or not, LDS is a culture too, just as the Jewish have a certain culture.

[Calm]

Cal, it would take alot for me to leave.

Good to hear. I just wonder sometimes when I hear you ask things like do LDS believe Christ was God incarnate. We may not use the same terms as much and we don't believe in a shared substance as described in the traditional Trinity, but we do believe that the person that is God the Son was incarnated as Jesus Christ (remember the traditional Trinity is three persons in one being). Edited September 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

(Who shall come as Jesus in the flesh)

Wow, that sounds like some of what non lds christians believe!

See http://jesuschrist.l...of-jesus-christ

Indeed the Atonement of the Only Begotten Son of Godin the flesh is the crucial foundation upon which all Christian doctrine rests and the greatest expression of divine love this world has ever been given. Its importance in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be overstated. Every other principle, commandment, and virtue of therestored gospel draws its significance from this pivotal event.2

This is from the official First Presidency statement about the Origin of Man

When the divine Being whose spirit-body the brother of Jared beheld [see Ether 3:6–16], took upon Him flesh and blood, He appeared as a man, having “body, parts and passions,” like other men, though vastly superior to all others, because He was God, even the Son of God, the Word made flesh: in Him “dwelt the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” [Colossians 2:9.] And why should He not appear as a man? That was the form of His spirit, and it must needs have an appropriate covering, a suitable tabernacle. He came into the world as He had promised to come (III Nephi 1:13), taking an infant tabernacle, and developing it gradually to the fulness of His spirit stature. He came as man had been coming for ages, and as man has continued to come ever since. Jesus, however, as shown, was the only begotten of God in the flesh.

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

In my childhood … I was instructed to believe in the divinity of the mission of Jesus Christ. I was taught by my mother, a Saint indeed—that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; that he was indeed no other than the Only Begotten of God in the flesh

, and that, therefore, no other than God the eternal Father is his Father and the author of his existence in the world. I was taught it from my father, from the Prophet Joseph Smith, through my mother who embraced the gospel because she believed in the testimony of Joseph Smith, and she believed in the honor, integrity and truthfulness of her husband; and all my boyhood days and all my years in the world I have clung to that belief; indeed, I have never had any serious dubiety in my mind, even in childhood. 4

https://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=5855f48fa2d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD Edited September 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[altersteve]

Would you mind sharing if you agree that President Monson would answer Jesus when asked who the god of the old testament is/was?

I can't speak for him.

Also while I agree the God head has always been as far as we are concerned the individual that believers in the Old Testament looked to as God, prayed to, and heard from.... was jesus in his premortal form

I never said I don't believe Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. But the Father was the God of the Old Testament too, and so was the Holy Ghost. People in Old Testament times didn't use the word "Jehovah" as a distinct name from "Elohim." They were interchangeable, just as they should be today. That was my point all along.

[altersteve]

I know for a fact the group that follow Shawn McCraney's views believe Jesus is God.

So do Mormons.

[Tacenda]

So do Mormons.

Yes, but not God the father do they? The one that says "here is my son, in whom I am well pleased"?

Round and round we go!

[altersteve]

Yes, but not God the father do they? The one that says "here is my son, in whom I am well pleased"?

Round and round we go!

No, we don't believe Jesus is God the Father (and for the record, trinitarians don't either). But He is God.

[Libs]

LDS believe that the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are three separate Gods...but one in purpose.

Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are separate personages, somehow, congealed into One God.

So, both, believe that Jesus Christ is God...but, in slightly different ways.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Libs

[DBMormon]

But if you sat down with a believer living in the old testament times and said tell me about God. They would not know that God is a father and a son and a holy spirit.... they would not know that. They would describe their God and he would be the premortal Jesus though they wouldn't anticipate Jesus being the messiah who is actually the God promising to send a messiah.... one in the same person

Edited September 1, 2012 by DBMormon

[Kevin Christensen]

But if you sat down with a believer living in the old testament times and said tell me about God. They would not know that God is a father and a son and a holy spirit.... they would not know that. They would describe their God and he would be the premortal Jesus though they wouldn't anticipate Jesus being the messiah who is actually the God promising to send a messiah.... one in the same person

Have you read Margaret Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God?

There is a preview of the argument here:

http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

And this is quite helpful on the tranmission of the Hebrew text:

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/TextAndContext.pdf

And this on early Christianity:

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/SecretTradition.pdf

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[DBMormon]

I'll give it a look kevin

[USU78]

No, we don't believe Jesus is God the Father (and for the record, trinitarians don't either). But He is God.

Yup . . . they allegedly believe in the dictum Filius non est Pater . . . that is, the Father is not the Son . . . and Filius Deus est/Pater Deus est . . . that is, that the Father and the Son are both G-d.

Round and round indeed.

". . . would cross a Rabbi's eyes . . ."

[volgadon]

Yup . . . they allegedly believe in the dictum Filius non est Pater . . . that is, the Father is not the Son . . . and Filius Deus est/Pater Deus est . . . that is, that the Father and the Son are both G-d.

Round and round indeed.

". . . would cross a Rabbi's eyes . . ."

There is an Exodus Rabbah pericope where every Evangelical's favourite Isaiah prooftext (I am the first, etc.,...) is interpreted as meaning, I have no father, I have no brother, I have no son.

[thesometimesaint]

Modalism

http://www.theopedia.com/Modalism