Polytheism

[Libs]

I wanted to ask this question here, because it is sincerely perplexing to me.

Critics very often accuse LDS of being polytheistic, because 1. LDS believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate Gods (One in Purpose); 2. Because the church teaches that members can become like their Heavenly Father, which suggests there are many "gods"; 3. The standard response, to questions about this has always been, "we only worship One God"...yet I have seen Apostles and others say that they worship Jesus Christ, as well.

Merriam Webster Definition of "polytheism":

"belief in or worship of more than one god."

My question is, why do LDS reject the polytheistic label, and why do they consider that label offensive?

[thesometimesaint]

Libs:

Because we are polytheistic in just the same sense as other Christians.

[Libs]

Libs:

Because we are polytheistic in just the same sense as other Christians.

I'm pretty sure Trinitarians would disagree with you.

[Libs]

I don't really want to "debate" this issue, exactly. I would really like to hear why LDS don't accept the polytheistic label..

Edited August 28, 2012 by Libs

[USU78]

I don't really want to "debate" this issue, exactly. I would really like to hear why LDS don't accept the polytheistic label..

It's because it is applied unevenly and unfairly, if not maliciously.

To a Jew, all Christians are polytheists. To a Muslim the same.

For an Evie Protestant who claims to believe in the Trinity, accepts "Pater non Filius est," yet insists that Father and Son are one such that Mormons agreeing that "Pater non Filius est" means that they're polytheists but the Evies are not is incoherent.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't really want to "debate" this issue, exactly. I would really like to hear why LDS don't accept the polytheistic label..

Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Greeks, Romans, and even modern Hindus are considered polytheists because of their worship of multiple gods.

Mormons reject the label of polytheism simply because we pray to and worship only one God, our Father. We pray only to Him, in the name of his Son. Yes there are other gods, an infinite number, and one day many of us will happily join that glorious throng, but we have only one God to whom we owe fealty. And that will always be true, worlds without end.

Technically that is referred to as henotheism, or summotheism, with our Trinity (or Gottheit) really a social trinity.

[Evangeline]

I would really like to hear why LDS don't accept the polytheistic label..

For me, it boils down to the commandment against idolatry.

Exodus 20: 3 -5

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Edited August 28, 2012 by Evangeline

[Calm]

For me, among other things it is that the vast majority of people who I have talked to about it see polytheism as a synonym for paganism, which would totally misrepresent LDS belief. I prefer not to use labels and just explain the belief.

[volgadon]

It's because it is applied unevenly and unfairly, if not maliciously.

To a Jew, all Christians are polytheists. To a Muslim the same.

For an Evie Protestant who claims to believe in the Trinity, accepts "Pater non Filius est," yet insists that Father and Son are one such that Mormons agreeing that "Pater non Filius est" means that they're polytheists but the Evies are not is incoherent.

Lots of good things beginning from page 5, but see particularly page 7. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56646-my-mormon-polythieism/

[DH]

My question is, why do LDS reject the polytheistic label, and why do they consider that label offensive?

I'm LDS, and I do not reject the label because I believe in calling a spade a spade.

It's not just a matter of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being three separate personages, either. We also believe that humans can literally become gods, and that some of us already have (D&C 76:58; 132:37).

Mormons reject the label of polytheism simply because we pray to and worship only one God, our Father. We pray only to Him, in the name of his Son. Yes there are other gods, an infinite number, and one day many of us will happily join that glorious throng, but we have only one God to whom we owe fealty. And that will always be true, worlds without end.

Technically that is referred to as henotheism, or summotheism, with our Trinity (or Gottheit) really a social trinity.

Believing in multiple gods but only worshipping one is called monolatry. Henotheism is a subtype of polytheism wherein people believe that there are multiple gods, but that one of them is the chief god who rules over the others.

Seeing as how we belief in a "God of gods," Heavenly Father, I'd classify Mormons as henotheists. In general Mormons worship only the Father, but I suspect they would not object to worshipping the Son if he appeared among them (as the Nephites and Lamanites do in The Book of Mormon), so I don't know that we'd be considered strictly monolatrous.

Edited August 28, 2012 by DH

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

(Edit: Oh look, people said what I said before I finished typing. )

I think the unfortunate reticence to label ourselves polytheists (which we absolutely are) is just a lingering remnant of our traditional-Christian past, in which philosophical monotheism was seen as the only respectable position to hold.

Personally, I don't find the polytheism label even the tiniest bit offensive; I think we should actually emphasize it, rather than downplay it to seem more acceptable to our traditional-Christian friends. It is only when we try to equate God with a bodiless Aristotelian First Cause so that He is ontologically distinct that the question even comes up. To the contrary, the D&C shows that there was no "First Cause", and that all Intelligence is eternal. Mormonism is actually an Eastern religion hiding out in the West. (Note also that the commandment in the decalogue is, in Mormon terms, part of the lesser law of the desert, whereas our own dispensation will be part of a time in which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest. We won't have other Gods "before" the Father, nor "after" Him, since all Gods will take part in the At-One-Ment.)

(Also, as far as the usual traditional Christian attempt at uniqueness goes, pagan/paganus = incompetent rural soldier; the distinction really arose after Tertullian and Augustine started using Roman military imagery to describe the Army of God, etc., and is almost always used as a pejorative, which is just silly to me. For instance, I have utterly no problem associating myself with today's Neo-Pagans, who believe in female Gods just like Mormons do, and who in my experience have a much more positive image of bodily corporeality than many traditional Christians -- again, much like Mormonism. If we believe that it is possible for our righteous ancestors to be deified, then why can't the Gods of the Norse and Hindus and Polynesians be just as real as the ancestral fertility-Gods worshipped by Abraham and Isaac?)

Contrary to some Mormons who have taught that we worship the Father alone ("patriolotry", despite my disagreements with the Toscanos in other areas), the Book of Mormon teaches quite clearly that the Nephites worshipped Christ Himself, not just the Father in His name. And if the Holy Spirit of Wisdom is "one" with the Father (who is also Spirit, according to John) and the Son, then we also worship the Holy Spirit. So that's three Gods right there, with the promise in Revelation 3:9 that Christ will cause others to be worshipped as well. And if we are all meant to take part in the At-One-Ment to become as unified in intent as the three Gods already spoken of, that means that all who are worthy of giving worth to will be worshipped.

This, of course, is essentially humanism: people matter. The only people who are not worth giving worth to are those who, in less secular terms, have a "spirit of bloodshed"; even then, they are not closed off from forgiveness if they change their ways so as not to be left alone in outer darkness.

I think this is part of what is (or should be) so revolutionary about Mormonism. The sectarian labels of a post-Apostasy traditional-Christian past shouldn't be necessary. Why does it matter that we give worth to more than one God? What matters is what kind of Gods we give worth to! The kind of Gods we worship are those who are seeking to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity. And since there is no ontological distinction between the Intelligence of immortal Gods and the Intelligence of mortal humans, that means that what we're really talking about is just a good family, though one which is spread over worlds without number.

Edited August 28, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[Cobalt-70]

I think that Mormons can technically be called "polytheistic," but that characterization is misleading, and not the whole story. Yes, we do believe in many gods, and yes, most Mormons do worship three distinct gods. However, in Mormonism, the definition of "god" is much broader than in other religions. A Mormon god or goddess is just a highly advanced or evolved man or woman. So "transhumanistic" is just as accurate as "polytheistic." Mormonism does not fit neatly into any of the traditional categories.

[Freedom]

The label 'polytheistic' has the same connotation as the term 'cult'. Polytheism is generally understood to be the worship of multiple unrelated gods as did the Romans and the Greeks. We believe in multiple Gods but we worship only one - that being the trinity.

[BCSpace]

My question is, why do LDS reject the polytheistic label, and why do they consider that label offensive?

I think we should reject it because it implies we worship a pantheon of Gods ala the ancient Greeks and Romans when our scripture (1 Cor 8:4-6) clearly states that despite the fact that many real and divine Gods exist, to us there is only one God (the Father).

I used to think that henotheism was a better description but it suffers from the same problem in that perhaps we might settle on one God as the primary God yet call upon or sacrifice to the other Gods depending on the circumstance and that God's particular sphere of influence. And of course this is also not accurately descriptive of LDS theology.

I have to go with Monotheism as the most accurate description of LDS theology. The OT plus NT-BoM worship (pray to) of Christ is explained by Jehovah not having introduced the Father to the ancient Hebrews (they labored under the law of Moses because they would not accept the higher law and knowledge) until the time of Christ and Christ, accepting and declaring that he was Jehovah, was their God, the one they looked forward to all that time so it is not unreasonable that they would worship him. Now Christ has introduced us to the Father and has directed our prayers to Him as well as all glory. Hence, while Jesus is a real and Divine God, to us, the Father is our God though we may, of course, be worshipful in the presence of other Gods when they appear.

[Cobalt-70]

Contrary to some Mormons who have taught that we worship the Father alone ("patriolotry", despite my disagreements with the Toscanos in other areas), the Book of Mormon teaches quite clearly that the Nephites worshipped Christ Himself, not just the Father in His name.

But the Nephites are said to have believed that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were literally one God. They were modalists, and therefore far more monotheistic than modern Mormons.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Libs]

I really appreciate all of the responses and I'm reading all of it, but probably won't have time to respond to every post. It seems like the main theme is that Mormonism is, technically, polytheistic, but the grounds for rejecting it are (again, basically) because the term has some negative connotations that we don't want associated with the religion.

I've also heard the other terms, henotheistic, etc, which could apply to Mormonism (and those terms are sometimes used by LDS).

[Libs]

Jermey said:

Mormonism is actually an Eastern religion hiding out in the West.

Yes, indeed! One of the reasons I was so attracted to it.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

But the Nephites are said to have believed that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were literally one God. They were monolatrists, and therefore far more monotheistic than modern Mormons.

We've talked about this before; I don't think the Book of Mormon folks were monolatrists at all, but you reject this because you don't see the book as authentically ancient in the first place. Which is fine, it just leads to very different readings. I read more along the lines of Gardner's 2003 FAIR talk.

[Libs]

Lots of good things beginning from page 5, but see particularly page 7. http://www.mormondia...on-polythieism/

Thanks for this link, volgadon. I figured this topic had been discussed here many times. Guess I should have done a search. I have started reading through the link and I see many similar answers to those already given. Thanks.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Libs

[BCSpace]

Mormonism is, technically, polytheistic,

I disagree; not even technically.

[Libs]

BC...the definition says "belief in many gods"...not, necessarily "worshiping" other gods. So, I guess, I don't understand how you could reject the "technically correct" assertion.

[thesometimesaint]

Libs:

See http://www.lds.org/s...ohn/17?lang=eng

And

1Corinthians 8:5-6

5. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many.

6. But to us there is but one ^aGod, the ^bFather, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one ^cLord Jesus Christ, by whom are ^dall things, and we by him.

We reject the claim of polytheism because it does not accurately describe what we believe.

Edited August 28, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[DH]

The label 'polytheistic' has the same connotation as the term 'cult'. Polytheism is generally understood to be the worship of multiple unrelated gods as did the Romans and the Greeks. We believe in multiple Gods but we worship only one - that being the trinity.

My pagan friends don't consider the word "polytheistic" offensive. They accept it and use it in reference to their own beliefs because it's accurate. Many of our beliefs and practices are different than the pagans', but I do think the word "polytheism" applies to the LDS because it's accurate. I don't tend to worry much about whether or not others consider us to be a cult.

FYI, most of the Greek and Roman gods were related to each other one way or another.

Believing in many gods = polytheism. Worshipping only one of them = monolatry.

Parts of The Book of Mormon do sound trinitarian in the sense of how mainstream Christians think of the Trinity. However, what we are actually taught in church is that the Godhead consists of three personages. In our prayers we do not address the Trinity or the Godhead, we address God the Father. When Jesus lived on Earth among the Israelites, people worshipped him, and the people on the American continent worshipped him when he visited them. So we see from the scriptures that members of the Godhead may be worshipped individually, and not just as a group. So I still say that Mormons are henotheistic polytheists.

P.S. I would like to add that I don't think it's really important how many gods there may be. My belief is that the gods are "one" in the same sense that Jesus and the Father are one with each other, as described in Jesus' Intercessory Prayer (John 17). That is, they share the same goals and act in harmony with each other. As long as we follow the example of Jesus, who in turn follows our Father's example, it doesn't really matter how many gods there are.

Edited August 28, 2012 by DH

[BCSpace]

BC...the definition says "belief in many gods"...not, necessarily "worshiping" other gods. So, I guess, I don't understand how you could reject the "technically correct" assertion.

That is the simple dictionary definition which doesn't convey the sense anthropologists use when speaking of polytheism. For example, in polytheism there are spheres of influnce such a God of the sky, a God of the underworld, a God of the sea, a God of fertility, a God of travelers, etc. and they each have their own sub classes of devotees and rituals. Not like LDS theology at all.

[Cobalt-70]

We've talked about this before; I don't think the Book of Mormon folks were monolatrists at all, but you reject this because you don't see the book as authentically ancient in the first place. Which is fine, it just leads to very different readings. I read more along the lines of Gardner's 2003 FAIR talk.

Sorry, in my post, I meant to say modalists, not monolatrists. The conclusion the Nephites were roughly Trinitarian, or more technically modalists, is independent of whether or not the Nephites were real or fictional.

Alexander, 1980, pp. 24-25

Kirkland, 1984, p. 37

Kirkland, 1986, p. 77

Lindgren, 1986, pp. 72-73