Exmormon Anger Toward The Lds Church.

[why me]

Perhaps the apparitions of the Virgin Mary and witnesses such as those to the Book of Mormon are all signs of God's intervention in the world. One may be just as true as the other in God's economy of bringing people to Christ. We can't simply ignore them and assume they are frauds, but we can't overstate what they say about the organizations claiming them.

This is true. What happened to saint bernedette and to the three children and the miracle of the sun are very convincing too.

[why me]

I'm just glad Selek 1 wasn't around, he would have had a hey day.

It would be a WWE smackdown for sure.

[Walden]

If an apparition or miracle leads you closer to Christ is that really something we should be afraid of?

True, but an evangelical might argue that the "apparition or miracle" as related by the 11 witnesses has in fact brought you farther away from Christ. By believing the "apparition or miracle" of the 11 witnesses, you have removed yourself from the commonly accepted dogma of "mainstream Christianity", and thus, in their eyes, farther away from Christ.

[Bart Burk]

True, but an evangelical might argue that the "apparition or miracle" as related by the 11 witnesses has in fact brought you farther away from Christ. By believing the "apparition or miracle" of the 11 witnesses, you have removed yourself from the commonly accepted dogma of "mainstream Christianity", and thus, in their eyes, farther away from Christ.

If you mean the Trinity, there are good Trinitarians in the Reorganized movement that accept the 11 witnesses. The reality is that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Mormon witnesses don't deviate from traditional Christian doctrine.

[Bart Burk]

This is true. What happened to saint bernedette and to the three children and the miracle of the sun are very convincing too.

It's not often easy to deal with all of these revelations. For example would anyone ever claim this was valid:

http://www.theremnantchurch.com/bio/presidency/fnlarsen.htm

After several inspirational experiences culminating in a revelatory message, Fred presented to the General Conference convening in April, 2002 a call to the office of President of the High Priesthood and the Church and Prophet, Seer and Revelator. The Conference unanimously accepted the call and Fred was ordained to that office of President/Prophet on April 6, 2002. Fred spends as much time as he can at the Office of the Presidency in the Church offices at the old William Chrisman High School until his retirement from the City Police Department. He looks forward with great enthusiasm to providing fulltime leadership to the Remnant Saints and the Church in this last dispensation and in the preparation for building the Kingdom of God on this earth, even His Zion.

I'm sure they believe they are being led by God as much as others believe he is completely deceived. But the ranks of the Remnant Church are growing. This movement accepts the Book of Mormon literally as well as most of Joseph Smith's other revelations. It claims to continue to receive revelation today ... Well, we've gone far afield.

[Deborah]

But just once I want it to be about Him only.

What a strange statement. Christ's life and ministry was about teaching others and doing missionary work. How do you talk about him without talking about those things which bring people to him?

[Tacenda]

What a strange statement. Christ's life and ministry was about teaching others and doing missionary work. How do you talk about him without talking about those things which bring people to him?

There are definitely ways, I guess It's just been overkill of talks about all the works in this church without much talk about the Grace he gave. I want to hear about that end a little more.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Tacenda

[Libs]

I understand where you're coming from, Tacenda.

Sometimes, we are so busy striving to do what we think we should do, that we forget about what Christ has done for us, and the grace bestowed by our Heavenly Father. It is nice to deeply reflect on that...often.

[CASteinman]

There are definitely ways, I guess It's just been overkill of talks about all the works in this church without much talk about the Grace he gave. I want to hear about that end a little more.

What if the Grace He gave included the commandments to... for example... do Home Teaching? Would it be OK to hear about that?

I sort of get the feeling that is not really exactly what you are looking for.

I remember reading a while back that different people express and receive love in different ways-- chiefly by Moving Words, by Helpful Deeds or by Compassionate Touch.

If I extend that a bit to what you might be looking for.. maybe you are looking for something less in the category of Deeds and more the category of Words.

Edited August 22, 2012 by CASteinman

[Joyful]

I am sorry you feel tricked. My family became inactive when I was about 10 yrs old. Somewhere in Primary however, I gained a testimony.

I knew that my teacher was telling me the truth. I knew that Joseph Smith was telling the truth about what he saw. Everything that I am, and everything

that my children have become is because of my testimony of the truthfullness of this Gospel.

How thankful I am that I was not tricked!

[Tacenda]

What if the Grace He gave included the commandments to... for example... do Home Teaching? Would it be OK to hear about that?

I sort of get the feeling that is not really exactly what you are looking for.

I remember reading a while back that different people express and receive love in different ways-- chiefly by Moving Words, by Helpful Deeds or by Compassionate Touch.

If I extend that a bit to what you might be looking for.. maybe you are looking for something less in the category of Deeds and more the category of Words.

I'm looking for worshipful services...not the rolling in the aisles, nor the hands lifted in the air kind of thing and swaying back & forth, just a service where you worship Him through word and song. Now I gotta be honest here. Awhile back I mentioned a friend I met that recently sent her resignation letter into the church. I even tried to talk her out of it thinking she'd be miserable in the neighborhood that she lives in being nearly all LDS and I thought she might stick out like a sore thumb. But she went ahead and bit the bullet and sent the letter in. Well I've stayed in touch and asked her how her church life is in another faith. She described a service that was all about the Savior. And she said the music was wonderful. And she felt the spirit there was strong. In fact she choked up and cried during the service. It probably is my fault I don't get that at our church but then again maybe it isn't.

[why me]

I understand where you're coming from, Tacenda.

Sometimes, we are so busy striving to do what we think we should do, that we forget about what Christ has done for us, and the grace bestowed by our Heavenly Father. It is nice to deeply reflect on that...often.

I can understand this because I have felt this way too. At times i was a little disappointed (noticed that I said disappointed) when I would hear GA talks about obedience without mentioning mercy. But then, I would also search out talks with mercy and found them. But i also thought that Mercy was often overlooked by many members. Then, I would think that members were wired into obedience and not mercy. But then, I would also realize that it was just my opinion.

[why me]

I am sorry you feel tricked. My family became inactive when I was about 10 yrs old. Somewhere in Primary however, I gained a testimony.

I knew that my teacher was telling me the truth. I knew that Joseph Smith was telling the truth about what he saw. Everything that I am, and everything

that my children have become is because of my testimony of the truthfullness of this Gospel.

How thankful I am that I was not tricked!

You were lucky. You have gained a testimony and have seen the wonders that this testimony has done for you and what the church teaches has done for your family. However, I have seen some posters who had a testimony lose that testimony and say that it was just a 'warm fuzzy' and not real. All sorts of rationalizations take place and anger comes to the poster who now claims that the church is false. If this begins to happen to you someday, try to remember the post that you just made.

[Libs]

WhyMe..one of my favorite GC talks, ever, was Tender Mercies of the Lord, by Elder Bednar. Very touching.

"I testify that the tender mercies of the Lord are available to all of us and that the Redeemer of Israel is eager to bestow such gifts upon us." David A. Bednar

Edited August 22, 2012 by Libs

[CASteinman]

She described a service that was all about the Savior. And she said the music was wonderful. And she felt the spirit there was strong. In fact she choked up and cried during the service.

I happen to believe that for some people that is really the best place for them. This is not just sour grapes or a bitter sort of Mormon Curse. I really believe it.

From my readings of the Scriptures and the sentiments of prophets, I get the sense that God is not going to hold a big roast and put people on a spit and watch them suffer in eternity. He is going to give them the greatest blessings that they are comfortable with and the Churches of the World fill a niche that He has accounted for. The blessings for the people of these Churches will surpass all of their dreams and hopes -- and all of that through the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ -- whom they may worship! I am of the opinion that they will be happy and that God has foreseen their condition and their needs and established their special Kingdom where they will be happy.

Sydney Rigdon saw this in a vision with Joseph Smith and wrote about it:

And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament ... [These are they] who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. ...These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. .. These are they who receive of his glory ... who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

Now God would not have set that Kingdom up if there were not people to go there! And what a joy it will be for people who are focused on Jesus to enjoy the Kingdom where they will enjoy His presence -- at least some of the time.

I had a Bishop who once (for some reason that I think was some sort of answer to a prayer he was engaged in) had a vision regarding the Telestial Kingdom. Not the Terrestrial. Not the Celestial. The Telestial. In this vision the people there --- who were the foul and unholy people of the earth -- were blessed with the presence of God. Not God the Father and not God the Son, but the Holy Ghost.

And their eternal lives were filled with the bliss of the greatest and most powerful spiritual feelings and experiences that we here on earth can ever know.

That is the joy of their eternal life. This Bishop said to me ... "Imagine the greatest spiritual moment and experience of your life. Now imagine that never ends and never goes away! It is eternal!"

This is beyond our imagining. And that is the least of all the Kingdoms. I think Joseph Smith said something to the effect that if we knew the blessings of that Telestial Glory we would end our lives to enjoy it (and in so doing .. we would ensure are failure to gain higher glory!)

Terrestrial and Celestial Kingdoms are so much greater than this small vision of the Telestial World that it cannot be imagined here on earth.

We have so much to be grateful to Jesus for... regardless our eternal destiny. It makes me think about how "every knee will bow and every tongue will {gratefully} confess that Jesus is the Christ." (its actually sort of exciting to me!)

It has long been considered and speculated among members of the Church that we shall each receive the greatest portion of reward that we can tolerate -- that in fact we will not all be comfortable in higher degrees of glory. I happen to be of that philosophy as well.

My point in all of this is that I think it is possible that -- like the Celestial Kingdom -- the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not for everyone. When our Missionaries go out, they are following the commission to teach all nations kindreds tongues and people ... baptizing those that believe. We are not commanded to baptize everyone. We are not even commanded to convert everyone. We are merely commanded to teach everyone and only baptize those who believe.

My views may be out of harmony with the brethren and if they are I will repent upon being instructed. However, I do honestly think that some people do not belong in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because they are not comfortable in that condition. I sincerely wish them well if they are not members -- or do not want to be members. I hope I may achieve a degree of glory with them. I hope I may further achieve a degree of glory promised to us in the True Church -- and I confess, I rather expect God will work a miracle in that regard. But only to the extent that I learn to remain faithful to my covenants.

Maybe you would be happier in a different Church. Some people are ... and it is your choice. Nevertheless, I hope you will remain. I believe it will be to your blessing to remain just as I believe it is a blessing to me. In particular, Jesus and the Apostles spoke of the "Two Ways".. the way of Life and the way of Death. Despite the joy and peace in other Kingdoms, it is God's desire that we all return to live with Him in His Kingdom -- which is what He considers the way of Life-- which I take to mean His Life.

(I never know when I am crossing some line -- I really don't. I hope some Monitor does not decide I have done something wrong in this post. If so -- I apologize and guarantee.. it would be a mystery to me).

Edited August 22, 2012 by CASteinman

[Tacenda]

I happen to believe that for some people that is really the best place for them. This is not just sour grapes or a bitter sort of Mormon Curse. I really believe it.

God is not going to hold a big roast and put people on a spit and watch them suffer in eternity. He is going to give them the greatest blessings that they are comfortable with and the Churches of the World fill a niche that He has accounted for. The blessings for the people of these Churches will surpass all of their dreams and hopes -- and all of that through the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ -- whom they may worship! I am of the opinion that they will be happy and that God has foreseen their condition and their needs and established their special Kingdom where they will be happy.

Sydney Rigdon saw this in a vision with Joseph Smith and wrote about it:

Now God would not have set that Kingdom up if there were not people to go there! And what a joy it will be for people who are focused on Jesus to enjoy the Kingdom where they will enjoy His presence -- at least some of the time.

I had a Bishop who once (for some reason that I think was some sort of answer to a prayer he was engaged in) had a vision regarding the Telestial Kingdom. No the Terrestrial. Not the Celestial. The Telestial. In this vision the people there --- who were the foul and unholy people of the earth -- were blessed with the presence of God. Not God the Father and not God the Son, but the Holy Ghost.

And their eternal lives were filled with the bliss of the greatest and most powerful spiritual feelings and experiences that we here on earth can ever know.

That is the joy of their eternal life. This Bishop said to me ... "Imagine the greatest spiritual moment and experience of your life. Now imagine that never ends and never goes away! It is eternal!"

This is beyond our imagining. And that is the least of all the Kingdoms. I think Joseph Smith said something to the effect that if we knew the blessings of that Telestial Glory we would end our lives to enjoy it (and in so doing .. we would ensure are failure to gain higher glory!)

Terrestrial and Celestial Kingdoms are so much greater than this small vision of the Telestial World that it cannot be imagined here on earth.

We have so much to be grateful to Jesus for... regardless our eternal destiny. It makes me think about how "every knee will bow and every tongue will {gratefully} confess that Jesus is the Christ." (its actually sort of exciting to me!)

It has long been considered and speculated among members of the Church that we shall each receive the greatest portion of reward that we can tolerate -- that in fact we will not all be comfortable in higher degrees of glory. I happen to be of that philosophy.

My point in all of this is that I am not someone who believes that -- like the Celestial Kingdom -- the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is for everyone. When our Missionaries go out, they are following the commission to teach all nations kindreds tongues and people ... baptizing those that believe. We are not commanded to baptize everyone. We are not even commanded to convert everyone. We are merely commanded to teach everyone and only baptize those who believe.

My views may be out of harmony with the brethren and if they are I will repent upon being instructed. However, I do honestly think that some people do not belong in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because they are not comfortable in that condition. I sincerely wish them well if they are not members -- or do not want to be members. I hope I may achieve a degree of glory with them. I hope I may further achieve a degree of glory promised to us in the True Church -- and I confess, I rather expect God will work a miracle in that regard. But only to the extent that I learn to remain faithful to my covenants.

Maybe you would be happier in a different Church. Some people are ... and it is your choice. Nevertheless, I hope you will remain. I believe it will be to your blessing to remain just as I believe it is a blessing to me. In particular, Jesus and the Apostles spoke of the "Two Ways".. the way of Life and the way of Death. Despite the joy and peace in other Kingdoms, it is God's desire that we all return to live with Him in His Kingdom -- which is what He considers the way of Life. His Life.

(I never know when I am crossing some line -- I really don't. I hope some Monitor does not decide I have done something wrong in this post. If so -- I apologize and guarantee.. it would be a mystery to me).

Absolutely not!!! If anyone thinks this post is wrong then I am in the wrong church! I very much agree with nearly everything you said!

[CASteinman]

Absolutely not!!! If anyone thinks this post is wrong then I am in the wrong church! I very much agree with nearly everything you said!

Oh, its not the Church! The board has rules that I am thick headed and slow to grasp. Some of them I am as clueless about as a dull animal. Its just that I posted something that I thought was positive and uplifting once and got told it was wrong. So.. I am hoping I did not do it again.. whatever it was.

[maxrep12]

so much of what I hear from ex-Mormons is really an example of people that just need to grow up and take responsibility for their own choices.

Talk about choice options for an 8 year old.

[Mudcat]

This account comes from one of Oliver's friends who claims that this is the way it was done. But at the moment I cannot find the reference.

Thanks for the note Why Me. I was unaware of that, if you happen across the reference, feel free to post a link.

[Damien the Leper]

D&C 84:

"... Your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received— Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things; for I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.

Therefore, ago ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature."

Fair enough. However, I am not nor will I be a missionary for the church.

I will share my beliefs if I'm asked but I'm not concerned with volunteering information. I'm not seeking converts or to in some way influence someone's decision or pique their interest in the church. That would be exceeding my mandate.

[ERayR]

WhyMe..one of my favorite GC talks, ever, was Tender Mercies of the Lord, by Elder Bednar. Very touching.

"I testify that the tender mercies of the Lord are available to all of us and that the Redeemer of Israel is eager to bestow such gifts upon us." David A. Bednar

One of my favorites was when BY got up and said we have brothers and sisters stranded on the trail and we have to go save them. We need XXX number of teams and wagons and supplies. This meeting is adjourned go home and get ready and be ready to leave...

[Damien the Leper]

I find witnesses, miracles, the fruits of the Gospel and the testimony of the Holy Spirit in a lot of different denominations. I don't know of any modern Christians who don't claim these things except in some of the mainline denominations that are dying. Evangelicals and Catholics will overwhelm you with their miracles, etc. if you talk to them a little while. I don't find these things are anymore than what you would expect from any group of people who have had an encounter with Jesus Christ. So is the Book of Mormon a witness for Christ or a witness to the LDS Church? Do I accept it like the Baptist preacher who accepts it and remains a Baptist preacher? Do I accept it like some of the groups descended from Joseph Smith III accept it? Does accepting the Book of Mormon mean I should become a member of the Corporate LDS Church or does it have more universal implications?

I think you should do whatever your own convictions tell you to do. If you believe in the Book of Mormon and choose not to be part of the Restoration movement then so be it. I will still call you friend. You don't have to be any kind of "Mormon" to believe in the book. That's just silly.

My recommendation...unless you absolutely feel a call from God to the LDS church then stay where you are at if it suits you but I wouldn't get bent out of shape over which church to join. That was Joseph Smith's problem and it doesn't necessarily mean that we all have the same problem in some form.

[CASteinman]

Fair enough. However, I am not nor will I be a missionary for the church.

This is not merely applicable to called missionaries. Every member a missionary.

Not only that, but bearing testimony produces specific benefits we can -- each of us -- use.

I will share my beliefs if I'm asked but I'm not concerned with volunteering information. I'm not seeking converts or to in some way influence someone's decision or pique their interest in the church. That would be exceeding my mandate.

I am not questioning your personal decisions. I was merely pointing out that it the Lord takes a different view of things than this.

[Damien the Leper]

It means you should become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But you have your agency.

So you and the LDS church say and claim. This is only 'authoritative' because one denomination claims that it is from God and is solely binding on that denomination. A claim as many others on here have stated is not fact. It is a belief.

[ERayR]

So you and the LDS church say and claim. This is only 'authoritative' because one denomination claims that it is from God and is solely binding on that denomination. A claim as many others on here have stated is not fact. It is a belief.

True there are many claiming to be authoritative. That makes it difficult and imperative that we chose with care. The consequences are much to important to leave to others. That is why it is important for each to make the choice for himself. Then if you have decided to follow one claime or another without the personal revelation (witness) thing then we are responsible for that choice.